[Closed] So -Steel FS bikes...

Are you 100% sure?

Aluminium grades come with a T4 or T6 or other T numbers to designate the ageing process for them, if aluminium is quoted as 6061 it isn't.

Aluminium grades come with a T4 or T6 or other T numbers to designate the ageing process for them, if aluminium is quoted as 6061 it isn't.

Or someone is being lazy.

Fair enough, but there was definately an article/interview in the MTB press (probably late 90's early 00's) with a designer talking about the new frames being 1-2 lb lighter as they'd changed the alloy used to one that required heat treating and thus could X%less as it was Y% stronger after heat treatment.

Most aluminium thats pressed is "o" spec then requires treatment otherwise it cracks whilst its being formed, we used rubber pad forming like they used to do on some bits of aeroplanes.

theres a good book from about 1960 odd that explains it fully from ALCOA

7020 doesnt need heat treating after welding but presents other problems

Does that 7.2lbs for the rocket include the shock? Size medium?
Big headtube (1.5/taper/44mm)? bolt through rear? nice big seat-tube?
anyone from 18 bikes want to tell us what their frame weighs?

[url= http://cotic.co.uk/geek/steel-full-suspension ]Why I used steel on the Rocket[/url]

I'm looking forward to the results/the bike. I don't think the material should distract attention away from the ride/suspension action. My previous 'experience' of steel bikes was back in 2003 when I had a go on a Keewee. STUPIDLY heavy it was.

I am a sceptic on this however I love it when I see someone use something different, an idea in mountain biking and if it works wahey!

I've found Cy's write ups very informative and interesting, even if you aren't going to buy one it's nice to read about the whys and what fors behind the designers thoughts.

It's makes a bit more sense than Braap 😉

cy. Thanks for posting that. It's V interesting.

I've read that cy, it is indeed very interesting.
I just wanted some facts to back it up. Such as;

Does that 7.2lbs for the rocket include the shock? Size medium?
Big headtube (1.5/taper/44mm)? bolt through rear? nice big seat-tube?

. It is perfectly possible to build a steel frame that is the same weight as an equivelant aluminium frame,

Go on then, examples please!

Waaay left field but does anyone remember Rogue Trooper in 2000ad when he came across the test tube/badly grown/inferior Rogue Troopers?

I bet in bike companies everywhere there is a room full of wierd and wonderfully grown frames etc that were never allowed out during the R&D process

Can someone in plain English tell me what real world benefits this will bring someone like me?

Can someone in plain English tell me what real world benefits this will bring someone like me?

Someone like you? who are you like?

do you know Kev? are you at all like him?

Can someone in plain English tell me what real world benefits this will bring someone like me?

you will own a brilliant riding full suspension frame designed by an english genius.

PeterPoddy - Member
. It is perfectly possible to build a steel frame that is the same weight as an equivelant aluminium frame,
Go on then, examples please!

Have you not seen cy's rocket bike then?

timc has a good and valid point.

Orange's first FS bike was steel - the [b]X1[/b].

And it was "fully floating"!?

was is that the original ad/web/page? If so the graphics etc that they used have really aged well haven't they.

People are also forgetting that you don't neccesarily have to weld steel frames.

A brazed joint has less of a stress raiser and arguably less heat affected zone (although there are other discussions to be had about it being less heat but applied for longer when compared to TIG / possible issues with annealing of the tube).

You can also completely remove and replace a brazed tube if you do damage it. However I'd only do this if the old tube is cut out / old brass filed off - it take a hell of a lot of heat to un-braze a joint!

brant - Member
you will own a brilliant riding full suspension frame designed by an english genius.

Sorry I actually meant what real world advantage will this bike have being steel over say aluminium for me? what would i notice? or would this design not work in aluminium? will i notice a benefit?

Not hating on it, a genuine question, I have no problems with material choice or similar, different things are good imo.

Im not questioning Cy's integrity, I know he designs great bikes, I have one of his bikes & want another!

timc - Member
brant - Member
you will own a brilliant riding full suspension frame designed by an english genius.
Sorry I actually meant what real world advantage will this bike have being steel over say aluminium for me? what would i notice? or would this design not work in aluminium? will i notice a benefit?

Not hating on it, a genuine question, I have no problems with material choice or similar, different things are good imo.

Im not questioning Cy's integrity, I know he designs great bikes, I have one & want another!

The front triangle will be about the same weight, strength and stiffness as an aluminium equivalent. So at that point, it's pretty much down to looks. And steel always looks nicer.

cookeaa - Member
do you know Kev?

cookeaa - Member
are you at all like him?

you will own a brilliant riding full suspension frame designed by an english genius.

Probably true, the point is, would "a brilliant riding full suspension frame designed by an english genius" made from aluminium be better/cheeper/stiffer/stronger?

Probably true, the point is, would "a brilliant riding full suspension frame designed by an english genius" made from aluminium be better/cheeper/stiffer/stronger?

How do you define better?

Does that 7.2lbs for the rocket include the shock? Size medium?
Big headtube (1.5/taper/44mm)? bolt through rear? nice big seat-tube?
anyone from 18 bikes want to tell us what their frame weighs?

brant - Member
How do you define better?

Obviously that is variable, but lets go with, offers the same/improved performance for a lower cost, that seems to be many peoples point?

How do you define better?

(I'm assuming you do want stiffer in an FS frame)

its not better its different and that doesn't even matter.

what you need to be asking is does the bike as a whole perform in a way that its material is the last thing on your mind. in this case I'd happily say yes.

carbon is "better" but many people worry when they own it.

I'm assuming you do want stiffer in an FS frame

Depends, there's an argument in motorcycle design that frames got too stiff, which is fine on a track where the surface is perfectly smooth, but if you hit a pothole mid corner on a normal road and there's no flexibility in the frame the suspension (bikes leaned over) can't do anything about it as its not perpendicular to the road.

One of the mags even commented on the cannondale prophet being a bit flexy, but all the better for it.

Thanks Cy for the link, very informative.

As an aside, there is a lot of prototyping work done in steel, the 2005/6 Enduro being one notable case. At that time, the Enduro in it's production form featured a lot of complex welds and semi-monocoque pieces that you simply don't see the like of anymore, probably because the production labour costs must have been very high. Getting the geometry right before the moulds are created is obviously paramount.

The notion that one bike is "better" than another is becomingly increasingly subjective, with personal taste becoming the deciding factor for many which I think is where Brant was going with this. The proof will be in the riding, the only way we'll know for sure is for people to test ride the bike and see how it feels.

I'm assuming you do want stiffer in an FS frame

That depends entirely on where the stiffness is. There's a reason why chain and seatstays aren't made of 2" thick tubing.

I'm assuming you do want stiffer in an FS frame

Ask Mr Vouilloz about his opinions on that one....

There's a reason why chain and seatstays aren't made of 2" thick tubing.

tyre, chainring and heel clearance would be difficult, and it would be heavy.

was is that the original ad/web/page? If so the graphics etc that they used have really aged well haven't they.

Yeah from '97 / '98. Orange are good at marketing and making things look good 🙂

Those thinking/questioning about the "stiffness" issue around alu/steel need to read the page that Cy has linked to.

That depends entirely on where the stiffness is. There's a reason why chain and seatstays aren't made of 2" thick tubing.

It's uneccecary as its a smaller triangle than the front, theres 2 sets of them and there's no space?

Those thinking/questioning about the "stiffness" issue around alu/steel need to read the page that Cy has linked to.

The irony of saying we shouldn't question an essay which talks about questioning others logic?

anyone from 18 bikes want to tell us what their frame weighs?

We don't actually know the frame weight of the bike that's been pictured, it was a proof of concept built using tubing we had in stock. Weight was not a concern as it was being built. The bike as pictured is just shy of 32lbs with Deore/sun ditch witch rear wheel, X9 drivetrain, Tapered steerer 140mm thor, Joplin 3, Pro2/dt4.2 front wheel, easton Havoc bars and Magura MT6 brakes. Not too shabby for a frame designed and built in three weeks but the next one will be better.

We are aiming for a very similar weight to the rocket on the next frame with some of the same features - tapered headtube, 140mm rear travel, 160mm fork, 142x12 dropouts, 30.9 seatpost. There are some more details [url= http://www.18bikes.co.uk/news.php?articleshow=627 ]here[/url]. We have stepped up the tube sizes to increase stiffness whilst reducing the wall thickness on other tubes to save some weight. This has created some problems with bending the tubes for the rear end, so we have had to design and build a bender from scratch to overcome this, hence the delay. This bender was completed today so the frame should be finished relatively soon.

I'm not going to get into the arguement of steel vs al as I don't think it's that relevant. If you end up with a good frame (performance,weight,looks,price etc), does it really matter what it's made from?

does it really matter what it's made from?

No but key nowadays is strength to a low low weight. Thats how I see things. After all, how many porky 140mm etc travel frames are on sale nowadays?

853 steel is nice and will give a frame (in a crowded market) a USP.

Why is everyone raving about Transition all of a sudden? Yes they are good frames but is it a 'new-found' fashion thing???

I am no engineer so cannot hope to offer anything useful on that score however I can think of one compelling reason why steel FS have not been as popular with designers as Aluminium.......

The majority of riders don't have the first idea about the relationship between materials, their use in any particular context and the ride they experience; that leaves the door open for the marketing department to have a field day... and they decided a long time ago that steel FS was a no-go.

As Cy says on the Cotic site the industry believes... "FS bikes are made of Aluminium right??!"

To me though, my BFe is my favorite bike. I have had the chance to ride bikes from Norco, Santa Cruz, Transition, Intense, Kona, Corsair and more and hands down it is the BFe and first generation Blindside that always put the biggest smiles on my face.

I have never had so much fun on a HT as on a BFe.... it is a keeper and I find myself wanting to go places it excels. So if Cy Turner and his Cotic team of designers, riders and others have come up with a steel FS, I for one sure as hell want to find out if it has the ability to replicate the same reaction in me as the BFe does.

I am sold on my Cotic to the extent that I push the locals here to ride it and see what they are missing. Search out the chance for a Demo people..... it might not be what everyone is looking for but for those of us who ride steel HTs.... FS.... why not if people like Cotic can make one work.

Why is everyone raving about Transition all of a sudden?

Because they are lovely.

No but key nowadays is strength to a low low weight. Thats how I see things. After all, how many porky 140mm etc travel frames are on sale nowadays?

I meant all things being equal, if two frames weigh the same, cost the same, same travel, stiffness, geometry, features etc [i]but[/i] one was steel one was aluminium, would it make any difference?

That sounds nice 18 bikes. Thanks for answering.

We are aiming for a very similar weight to the rocket on the next frame with some of the same features - tapered headtube, 140mm rear travel, 160mm fork, 142x12 dropouts, 30.9 seatpost.

Get this in at around 7.2lbs for a medium with RP23 and you're there I reckon.

I think too much emphasis is placed on the weight of frames etc, when the majority of riders aren't exactly racing whippets.

The frame we are building is on the large side, so it's weight should be a good sign of what could be done. What we are ultimately aiming to get is a full suspension platform* that we can build custom front ends for, this will be where we can start to push the weight limits. For example, we will be able to use a different shock to give 120mm travel, use some different tubes in the front end and drop a little more weight out, whilst still being able to build to whatever geometry people want.

I think the next couple of years will be quite interesting in terms of steel bikes, not just full sus

*This may or may not be a single pivot steel swingarm, we are looking into other options too.