If he wants faster road with some mild off road a gravel bike is probably a good shout. If he wants to still have fun on more capable stuff without being beat to shit and riding a bike that has a bit of front suspension or big arse tyres is better
It's probably the former based on what I've ridden round here, but will try and force myself out over xmas break on the big bike to see what the other bridleways are like 🙂 at the minute it feels like I'd be better off with a gravel and a DJ bike to make the most of what we have in this area. I do kinda like the idea of a fast xc bike too though but looks like I'd be paying a lot more for that if I want something good.
Wishing I didn't jump on the Sommet in the first CRC sale so I could have picked up one of the bargain Vitus Substance or Rapide they had in the liquidation sale instead.
A classic (ie not LLS) geometry hard tail on gravel tyres works just fine . Hardly any slower that a gravel bike but comfy and capable
Yep. Bars are overrated off not going at fast speeds. I can easily swap bars between risers and drops on same bike and it make negligible difference when averaging 16mph on a gravel ride. Drops would be more aero but let's say they make me .2mph faster, not really going to make a noticeable difference to my ride is it.
A hardtail, (XC if you prefer the position - I do), with fast rolling lightish tyres will be pretty much as fast and easy to ride as a gravel bike.
However, if you like/prefer drop bras then get a gravel bike.
However, if you like/prefer drop bras then get a gravel bike.
Love a dropped bra. Still not getting a gravel bike though 😉
Agree that modern geometry and long travel makes traditional UK mountain biking such as riding bridleways a bit boring, however the terrain that can be, and is ridden has fortunately evolved from just being allowed on the occasional bridleway to singletrack at trail centers and now bike parks.
I do kinda like the idea of a fast xc bike too though but looks like I’d be paying a lot more for that if I want something good.
As I mentioned above, if going second hand, in the current market I paid less for my carbon XC HT with XT 12sp group set and reasonable Rockshox fork than I got for my steel GB with 11sp GRX and a carbon fork. From what I've seen there's better value in the XC MTB market.
When I was gravel curious I got a secondhand Boardman ADV 8.9.
Later sold it for pretty much what I paid, when I bought one of those half-price Ragley Trigs.
Would recommend the Boardman in particular. Tons of them about, great bikes, Shimano hydraulic discs - and you'll probably get a bargain if buying secondhand the week before Xmas.
I've a Scott Scale and a Giant Revolt, both are carbon frames and both weigh about the same at around 9kg and a bit with bottles.. the xc bike is a bit draggy and tedious on local loop tarmac and I feel like I'm killing the tyres on the road, although its obviously 'better'/faster in mud and on some of the more lairy Surrey/Kent bridleway descents and technical climbs.
The gravel bike is fun on both and I enjoy the seat of the pants stuff of being 'underbiked' and it's often surprising what you can get up or down with 40mm tyres and no suspension. There are no real drops or jumps on my local bridleway loops and the ground is a mix of gravel tracks and dirt, mud and stretches of loose flint singletrack... the loose rocky bits do hammer the headset..
The xc bike hasn't been out since August as I need to drive 1.5hours + to Swinley, Bedgebury or the Surrey hills to make it worth taking. Gravel bike out the door and I'm in the North Downs and beyond in half an hour of tarmac, park paths and bridleways.
If I could only have one, it would be the Revolt.
rocketdog you have a clear bias towards gravel bikes
It's not bias, it just common sense. Modern MTBs are too good at the off road bits, great if you live in the Alps, but makes riding around Birmingham a bit boring and the numerous tarmac bits tedious. Gravel bikes have brought the thrill of riding local stuff back. A nice flat bar hybrid would do just as good a job but suspension and 2.6" tyres are a bit of a waste/overkill
As I mentioned above, if going second hand, in the current market I paid less for my carbon XC HT with XT 12sp group set and reasonable Rockshox fork than I got for my steel GB with 11sp GRX and a carbon fork. From what I’ve seen there’s better value in the XC MTB market.
Yeah does seem like you got a steal on that bike! Before I decide on anything I'm going to have to reassess the local bridleways on the bike (haven't ridden them for ages) and see if it feels like an xc bike would be better. If it's anything like the ones we use for dog walks then I think gravel would be ok!
GMBN (maybe GCN) did a head to head on gravel bike vs. XC bike over a long distance. Think it might have been the south downs way?
Was mainly gravel trails with a few more spicy downhills.
Although the XC bike did do better on the small number of tech bits, overall the Gravel bike pissed all over the XC bike on that terrain, IIRC.
Matches my experience also. I tend to think XC bikes generally, particularly
hardtails, have been squeezed out other than for proper racing.
Personally I'd usually rather be on my gravel bike until the going gets a bit too tech for a bit too long...and then at that point I'd usually want to be on an fs trail bike instead.
I've been messing about building various kinds of gravel/adventure/touring bikes for decades and always comeback to the same conclusion that a reasonably light, short travel XC hardtail based build is the best for me. Most of my riding is sub 2 hour rides to squeeze them in around a normal busy life though I manage a longer day out or couple of days bikepacking every couple of months, usually an A to B ride when I'm going away somewhere. For the last 3 or 4 years I've had everything from fast gravel bikes, singlespeed gravel, flat bar hardtail with bar ends, more touring type wider tyre gravel bike, and a Rohloff adventure bike build. Of the whole range, my go to bike for the majority of riding has been a steel 29er hardtail frame, 100mm Sid, 100mm dropper post, 50cm non flared drop bars and a 50mm rear gravel tyre with a light 2.1 XC tyre up front. This set up has been used for all sorts of riding, pootling round with the family (I found the drop bars great for when the kids need a push as I can ride closer to them without poking the end of an MTB bar in their ear), fast local gravel, long distance multi day sustrans type rides and even the full loop of the Calder Divide. The same bike with flat bars and bar ends works OK for most stuff but isn't quite as road useful, is a pain through the many gap stiles on lots of my routes and I get achey wrists on long multi dayers. My frame also means I can fit full guards and a rear rack when I need to which is a bonus. Obviously it's going to be different strokes for different folks but that just works really well for me. A recent ride, heading up into the dales on what I thought would be ideal gravel bike territory actually turned out to be the final nail in the coffin of the light gravel bike for me and I sold the bike as I just found it too limiting where my drop bar 29er is really good fun.
Before I decide on anything I’m going to have to reassess the local bridleways on the bike (haven’t ridden them for ages) and see if it feels like an xc bike would be better. If it’s anything like the ones we use for dog walks then I think gravel would be ok!
There really isn't a wrong answer and it'll all come down to whether you get on with drop bars or not. Only reason I changed was that after trying 3 different bars with very different dimensions I still got uncomfortable after 25k or so. As for riding on the drops for any length of time, no chance! I liked every other part of my Trig and liked the variation a GB gave me.
Get down to Sonder and demo a Camino. It'll answer a lot of your questions.
What’s it like doing hops and drops and jumps with drop bars? Not big stuff, just the fun messing about, getting a small distance off the ground, that’s usually possible if you look for little features when you’re out on any XC ride.
What’s it like doing hops and drops and jumps with drop bars? Not big stuff, just the fun messing about, getting a small distance off the ground
Terrifying, and usually accidental, for me.
Others may disagree though.
I'm still advocating a gravel bike
I don't get on with drops, but find the hoods massively more comfortable, and being able to hop to the flats every now and then, i only use the drops for brief intermissions or if i need more aero for a fast downhill or to counteract a horrible headwind
re drops and jumps....
the drops are more secure, on the hoods it feels like i could easily bump off them, also your grip gets much less secure if you try to cover the brakes. so drops is where its at when you hit anything really. It's a little disconcerting because you really are putting your face forwards so you are trusting the bike to not fold under you.. that being said... you are really engaged in the drops, super secure. The whole experience is more thrilling for sure, and you probably aren't doing anything as gnarly as you would on your hardtail, but it feels different for sure. There's a split trail at my local, one side is no more than a kerb onto some rough braking bumps, other side knee height onto a smoother landing... not had the balls to have a go at the larger yet.........
the worse thing is coming into something interesting on the hoods and not being able to transition to the drops due to the rough surface
GMBN (maybe GCN) did a head to head on gravel bike vs. XC bike over a long distance. Think it might have been the south downs way?
Was mainly gravel trails with a few more spicy downhills.Although the XC bike did do better on the small number of tech bits, overall the Gravel bike pissed all over the XC bike on that terrain, IIRC.
Yet we're still waiting for the SDW Double record to be set on a gravel bike (a drop-bar 29er doesn't quite count). I guess it could happen but I expect it'd be more about the rider than the bike if it did.
A gravel bike is never going to be the most efficient bike for longer distances off-road unless the 'off-road' is basically no rougher than a lot of country lanes. Lower volume tyres can't carry speed as efficiently and you get more beat up, plus any riding position that has aero gains on the road / fast gravel is hard to maintain off-road, the more like actual XC it gets the worse the gravel bike geometry is. It all takes its toll on a long ride ime.
What’s it like doing hops and drops and jumps with drop bars?
It's a long time since I was regularly jumping anything on an MTB so this is from a more trad XC kind of rider, but the basic layout of any bike that's half-decent on tarmac (like a gravel bike should be) puts more of your weight in front of the BB than an MTB would. Plus the bars are lower. Anything involving getting the front wheel unweighted is much harder - or if you set the bike up to make it easier it then feels odd on road. And if it has drop bars (imho) it should be a good road bike before it tries to do anything else well too.
There were some hoof prints under this.
https://flic.kr/p/2pnrVwr
And a lane under this
https://flic.kr/p/2pnrVz2
And I still don’t know how to embed Flickr images here. The bars are Whisky Winston before anyone asks. Not drops. Not flats.
Not my usual riding area: I was out of wales and around Melton way.
“It’s a long time since I was regularly jumping anything on an MTB so this is from a more trad XC kind of rider, but the basic layout of any bike that’s half-decent on tarmac (like a gravel bike should be) puts more of your weight in front of the BB than an MTB would. Plus the bars are lower. Anything involving getting the front wheel unweighted is much harder – or if you set the bike up to make it easier it then feels odd on road.”
This is very interesting. So this road/gravel set-up is like the opposite of the Dutch / Jeff Jones approach, with MTBs sort of splitting the difference in where your default weighting is. I’ve hardly ridden drop bar bikes, like a handful of times in my entire life. Does this not cause some issues as soon as the path is even slightly lumpy, with the front wheel bashing into things or hooking up annoyingly?
I used to hop up curbs, over pot holes, speed bumps etc on my road bike so the MTB skills are somewhat translatable 🙂 I never found the drops that comfy though apart from when descending or in headwinds and pretty much spent all my time on the hoods. May have been better off with bullhorn bars!
@chiefgrooveguru One just shifts body weight backwards, to unweight the front wheel slightly. Same as a mountain bike.
Reminded me of a couple of photos from the same obstacle at a cyclocross race where my spare bike was my mtb. Body positioning is pretty similar, but being further back you can see the arm/torso lean is less on the flat bar.
I’ve hardly ridden drop bar bikes, like a handful of times in my entire life. Does this not cause some issues as soon as the path is even slightly lumpy, with the front wheel bashing into things or hooking up annoyingly?
Modern gravel bikes (those not based on road geometry with a bit of extra clearance) handle quite well on lumpy stuff, a 29er wheel us good at this and the 700s on a gravel plus the extra tyre volume react the same smoothing out stuff up to a point if course. You're not going to be winning a DH race on one.
Like most things, riding drops, and you need to be on the drops for technical stuff, hoods are for cruising, it'll take a few rides to adapt to a new way of riding. Especially if you've only ridden flat bars off road. But it becomes intuitive.
So this road/gravel set-up is like the opposite of the Dutch / Jeff Jones approach, with MTBs sort of splitting the difference in where your default weighting is.
As a generalisation, pretty much. Though modern MTBs with steep STAs also put your (seated position) weight more fwd than they did in the past, still, they aren't really designed around seated pedalling like road/gravel bikes are.
I’ve hardly ridden drop bar bikes, like a handful of times in my entire life. Does this not cause some issues as soon as the path is even slightly lumpy, with the front wheel bashing into things or hooking up annoyingly?
Not really but fair to say they can get more tiring to ride on anything rough, sooner than an MTB would ime.
I still don't know quite where the line or tipping point is, or if it stays in the same place for long for any of us .. but there's certainly a point where in the quest for better off-road handling a gravel bike becomes a poor-handling bike on the road - often through a lack of the fwd weight distribution that is a questionable characteristic off-road but something that all good drop bar road bikes have. It's almost as if the Italians learned something between the 50s and the 80s that isn't going to be undone by some grubby MTBers and their LLS ideas : )
Having typed that, LLS had similar issues to a point until the super-short chainstay idea died down.
I'm quite happy adapting to the limitations of a gravel bike (i.e. mine are much more like road bikes with 40mm tyres).
Virtually anything double track is fine although I need to learn to control speed over loose stuff if only for the sake of my rims.
Any singletrack that isn't seriously steep or lumpy is brilliant, dare I say better on a gravel bike than on an MTB. You might say 'what's the point' but having lived in Central Belt Scotland and now Perthshire, I'm almost literally tripping over awesome, flat, sinuous singletrack all over the place, connected by road or farm track.
I don't even miss the old feeling of having to seek out 'gnar' singletrack as there's just so much CXable singletrack out there. Replace gravity with legs and you can ride until you drop. Since I could never jump and didn't really relish drop-offs I don't miss that capability.
Gravel is perhaps the most natural 'niche' I could ever have adopted, I basically have 4 variations of gravel bike in my garage now 🤣
Does this not cause some issues as soon as the path is even slightly lumpy, with the front wheel bashing into things or hooking up annoyingly?
It's an interesting question, because exactly how lumpy ARE the paths you regularly ride? Granted I recently rode Comrie red on my MTB which with roots and rock armouring would have been very unpleasant on the gravel bike. But most natural stuff always has a relatively smooth line through it, worn by feet or wheels. The beauty of the gravel bike is that it's quicker handling also so easier to thread a narrower smoother line between holes and rocks (more-so my old CX bike gravel build, the new custom build with the lower bottom bracket seems less nimble, shows what I know about geometry ☹ ).
Obviously not talking Torridonian descents or descending off Ben Macdui etc. etc.
I have 2 gravel bikes, the more mtb orientated one, a Topstone Lefty, has replaced my hardtail and is more fun on the stuff that I use it on. I do also have a FS eMTB, and a more road orientated gravel bike (Diverge)
more-so my old CX bike gravel build, the new custom build with the lower bottom bracket seems less nimble, shows what I know about geometry
Yep, that is what I like about CX frames and track frames - the higher BB is less stable. I only ride for between 1 and 2 hours and like an 'exciting' bike to ride so prefer quicker handling bikes or twitchy to some I guess.
That is why it is hard to recommend a certain type of bike for gravel riding as there is quite a bit of scope in types of bike that can be used so just need to ride whatever style you enjoy the most.
Yep, that is what I like about CX frames and track frames – the higher BB is less stable. I only ride for between 1 and 2 hours and like an ‘exciting’ bike to ride so prefer quicker handling bikes or twitchy to some I guess.
Yeah, I deliberately asked Rourke to build mine with a 70mm BB drop instead of the 60mm or whatever my Kinesis CX frame is. I confused 'stable at speed' with 'fast handling' 🙄
On the other hand the lower BB means I don't need such an ungainly selection of spacers under the stem 😎
“Reminded me of a couple of photos from the same obstacle at a cyclocross race where my spare bike was my mtb.”
That’s a great pair of photos, it really shows the difference! Are you quite tall? The MTB’s wheelbase looks vastly longer than the CX bike’s.
I’ve been curious about having some kind of rigid off-road bike for years but rationalisation due to limited hours to ride has me at a singlespeed hardtail and a e-full-sus (both with 160mm forks) but if there was more space in the garage I can imagine I’d be trying to work out if a gravel bike, a normal rigid MTB, a Jeff Jones or something like a Cotic Cascade that’s in between gravel and modern MTB would be the way to go. Whichever way, it would have to have a dropper post!
Whichever way, it would have to have a dropper post!
I replaced a Fugio 30 with my Topstone Lefty, so both at the MTB end, both on 650 x 47. I'd had the Fugio for about a year and found the dropper of minimal benefit, and a hassle when attaching a seatpack or bikepacking gear.
On the few times it was useful I'd have been much better off on my FS MTB, so wasn't keen to have one on the Topstone.
I have a small Travers Russti frame and Lauf fork in the loft. I was wondering whether it was worth building back up again with drops or corner bars and gravel tyres. 69.5 Ht angle , 61mm. BB drop with a 60mm stem. Plenty of clearance for decent sized tyres. Thoughts?
I have a small Travers Russti frame and Lauf fork in the loft. I was wondering whether it was worth building back up again with drops or corner bars and gravel tyres. 69.5 Ht angle , 61mm. BB drop with a 60mm stem. Plenty of clearance for decent sized tyres. Thoughts?
Sound like fun, do it!
The AWOL was a great bike, I had one and really enjoyed it. Force 1x and 29x2.1
Comfy riding position and surprisingly capable off-road.
Sold it to finance a custom ti AWOL from Waltly which was the same geo etc but loads lighter. And then because I'm an idiot I sold that when I was doing less riding.
If the old standards don't bother you I would absolutely get one.
Topstone Lefty, has replaced my hardtail and is more fun on the stuff that I use it on.
Yeah, but let’s face it, in a world of blurred lines, the Topstone Lefty is about as fuzzy as the memories of an early 20s night out.
It’s not bias, it just common sense. Modern MTBs are too good at the off road bits
what? Too good as in they have evolved to become exactly the right tool for the job. That’s not showing common sense at all. Just buy an older one or one with less progressive geometry. By that logic we should be riding MTB’s on the road bits because road bikes are too good at that 😂 so OP needs a road bike for off road and a full sus for the road sections!
I’ve been curious about having some kind of rigid off-road bike for years
I’d highly recommend a Stooge. I had a Dirtbomb and it is the only bike I really regret selling. Pretty good at everything and just a really pleasant bike to ride.
what? Too good as in they have evolved to become exactly the right tool for the job. That’s not showing common sense at all. Just buy an older one or one with less progressive geometry. By that logic we should be riding MTB’s on the road bits because road bikes are too good at that
I mean, I think I've written the same thing about 3 times now to try and simplify it, I don't think I can dumb it down any more, so yea, go with what you think I said 👍
You just like gravel bikes and that’s fine. I get what you’re saying, I just don’t agree and I’m perhaps taking the piss slightly 😉 I’ve owned a couple and just find them to be a bit shit for me. Offering the OP a different take. Decent XC HT or rigid MTB.
Too good as in they have evolved to become exactly the right tool for the job. That’s not showing common sense at all. Just buy an older one or one with less progressive geometry.
Look it’s all just larks outside and a change of scene so don’t take me too seriously. I’ve done loads of rides on a gravel bike with mates on hardtails. Send seems to work just fine. When I buy another hardtail I’ll be on here going on about how great it it
But here is the flaw in your argument
Surely the perfect mountain bike could convert any off road into feeling like it was riding on the road. Every lump squashed and perfect traction. But might that not be boring
So some times I ride my gravel bike and have to really work the bike round the the local roots. It needs loads of rider input and my brain is flat out planning a route. On my MTB i can just point and pedal
Both have there charm but surely you can see that the MTB isn’t always best here
For me that’s where a rigid MTB such as a Stooge comes in. That or a HT that isn’t of the LLS variety. I totally get that some folk like gravel bikes, just trying to give the OP the view from the other side. I’ve owned a couple (NS RAG, Genesis Fugio) and found them lacking for the task. Good on the roads and mild off road. Bone jarring and unpleasant once things get mildly interesting. As I said in a previous post, all about where compromise works for the individual.
My gravel bike has become my most used bike. It’s a road bike for roads and unsealed roads, and it’s quick and comfy on both of those.
If I go out for 30-50 miles, for example, it’ll spend half of the ride on tarmac at 2mph or so less than a road bike, and link up with old railway lines or surfaced bridleways, a bit like @13thfloormonk
A lot of people on this thread sound like they are using their ‘gravel’ bikes off road on trails with roots, rocks, mud and little like old school hard tails or CX bikes. I bought a Kona Jake 20 years ago to do the same, loved it, and then something a bit more capable and more like a drop bar rigid mountain bike in a Salsa Fargo. Neither riding was really anything like the kind of thing I’m using my gravel bike for, and I don’t think that’s what gravel riding is to most people away from this thread.
Both have there charm but surely you can see that the MTB isn’t always best here
It all depends who is riding it and what they like riding and feel is the best. Different bikes will be better worse for all different reasons, some measurable i.e. speed, others not i.e. comfort or confidence.
If you are not after outright speed then choices of bike become more down to whatever you like riding. My only bike is a fixed gear because that is what I enjoy riding the most. Is it always the best bike, no it is probably the opposite and pretty much always the worst bike other than going uphill on tarmac.
@chiefgrooveguru I’m 185cm. Longer legs than torso. I checked geometry figures for the wheelbase and the canyon was 1029mm and the inbred 1089. So 60mm difference. Probably more visual difference due to the factory 110mm stem on the canyon and the 50mm stem I fitted to the inbred. I don’t like dropper posts; I’ve tried them and they’re not for me. I don’t think I’d want the additional mental processing of operating one during a cyclocross race either. I realise the OP was talking about gravel but no one has mentioned suspension in any detail yet. I ended up racing for a local shop team on a Trek Boone with the front and rear isospeed pivots. It helps a little to smooth things under seated pedalling at the back, but the front didn’t do much noticeable. Trek have dropped it now. I also tried Lauf forks on my spare bike; Trek Crockett, but whilst they were useful on straight and fast sections, they allowed the front wheel to straighten up almost gyroscopically in the tighter turns of a cyclocross course and I hated that.
https://flic.kr/p/2mMN7jQ
What’s it like doing hops and drops and jumps with drop bars? Not big stuff, just the fun messing about, getting a small distance off the ground
https://giphy.com/gifs/d1M2hNSeK5ypXlSNlX
It's sketchy, but lots of fun. Personally I enjoy trails which are a bit technical and anything flowy on the gravel bike. It's a different experience to the MTB; slower in places but exhilarating and it really hones your skills. I vastly prefer XC on the gravel bike compared to my hardtail, but to be fair that is very LLand S and bought for a different kind of riding
What have you decided OP?
FWIW, I think it just comes down to whether you want a gravel bike or an XC bike - and then you fine tune the riding and routes to suit the bike.
That Chisel 29 does look great though, I wonder if there’s much real world difference between something like that locked out with gravel tyres, and a gravel bike. Other than the more aero position on the drops. I’ve never had a proper xc MTB so not sure how it would feel (body position/efficiency wise) compared with the hardcore hardtail/enduro bikes I’ve always had.
To me the difference is an MTB is comfortable when pushing on and riding quickly. Trying to bimble on a modern bike with a long reach and wide bars gives me a crick in my neck/shoulders after a few hours. E.g. if I take the singlespeed on a long ride involving a lot of flat road / gravel where it's spinning out. Not a problem when giving it the beans though (more movement, more engaged core/muscles).
On the gravel bike I can bimble for days as it's more comfortable with it's narrow bars and variety of hand positions. It's quicker 95% of the time too.
I did ~300 miles road/off-road on my SS over a couple of days and it made my hands go numb to badly the feeling didn't come back for months. There's a lot to be said for having a variety of hand positions!
If going with an XC bike and riding a lot of flat/road I'd say sod fashion and go with a narrow-ish bar (680-710mm) and either a 2x setup or a 38t chainring.
