[Closed] Shimano 2011 - Is that it?

Pertwee? Pah, 3 x 7 Alivio in a 2 x 10 XX world!

I've just had a quick re-read of Sheldon, and that's pretty much confirmed my prejudice of crossover gearing and the advantages of using a triple.

Maybe for racing and for people changing kit quite a lot they'll be great.

i hear campag euclid is on the way back

Yep.

Pedal until knackered then change up.

Although I was 18 when it was 7, 21 when it was 8 and fat when it was 9.

In conclusion, who cares? The only people who need 2x10 get given it for free.

Euclid. Now that really was a groupset, as was the original XTR pictured. But Campagnolo 11 speed off road? Some people on here would explode at the blasphemy!

20 year old XT hubs? And you have the balls to accuse me of not riding enough?!! Get 'em ridden and worn out!

Of the recent Doctors, I think Bernie Ecclescake was good, but Neil Tennant was soooo irritating. Couldn't stand him. The new Doctor is a bit weird, a bit geeky, scruffy and mysterious, like Doctor Who should be. Amy Pond is sexy and attractive, but the sort of girl you could meet on a night out, get drunk with and arrange to meet the following weekend for a nice meal in Rasa's in Stoke Newington Church St. Maybe a drink later at the Auld Shillelagh, but don't be expecting too much because she's a nice lass and you might want to settle down with her.

Yeah I still like on a triple how I can slam from fast downhill to steep uphill in 3 clicks.

ELECTRIC SHIMANO XTR.
XTRii....15SPD ,4 CHAINRINGS,CARBON TUBS WHEELS WEIGHING 230GS FOR THE SET.!!!!!
just wait sram will look soo silly soon..
bruce

Talkemada - that sounds like quite an incredibly detailed and overly-thought fantasy! See my comment above. You definitely need to get out and ride more.

ooOOoo - you can still do that with 2 up front, but you only need to shift once instead of twice. Already you can see the benefits!

Bikebruce - 15 speed with 4 chainrings. How's that going to work then? Honestly, even the standard of maths in the heckling is deteriorating round here!

He means 15x4, we don't talk about 21/24/27 speed, keep up!

confirmed my prejudice of crossover gearing and the advantages of using a triple.

Crossover gears are much lessened with a double, big/big effectively becomes middle/big, how have people not realised this!? I can confirm that XX runs really nicely in 42/36, it's probably not ideal from a wear POV, but I'll use it, particularly in a race.

I'm strangely attracted to a race bike with 2X10 and V brakes.

Well she might let you touch her knee, but if you tried anything more, she might get a bit fidgety, indicating that she wants to take things a little more slowly perhaps. The fact that she let you touch her knee is a good sign, though; if she resisted that, then you know your chances were nil. She'd just want to be 'friends'.

Then, you'd see here out the next week with your mate, and she'd be letting him touch her bottom.

Women are cruel... 🙁

These days, unless you use proper roadie equipment you can go lighter with discs!

How the hell am I supposed to keep up with the 2x10 crowd now with my slower front shifting? Jesus - shut up and ride!

ooOOoo - you can still do that with 2 up front, but you only need to shift once instead of twice. Already you can see the benefits!

But you have a narrower spread of ratios. So you must have to shift more on the back.

yeah frm db 250 brakes...

[i]I'm strangely attracted to a race bike with 2X10 and V brakes[/i]

Wasn't a bloke up in Scotland arrested for that sort of thing last year?

yeah frm db 250 brakes...

Hmmm, I was thinking of components that work 🙂

I have been 1x9 for a very long time, no need for me to have 2 or 3 x9 as I they only add 4 extra gears none which I really use, and can get by changing the front cog if I really want too.

1x10 will be kinda good as it will mean I hope that I can have half a road block and half an MTB block and therefore run a 34T rescue gear when I blow my legs out. 3x10 seems a bit pointless but then I think that of 2x9 so makes no difference to me. Only those racing XC will really gain anything and even then not much.
You really gain very little other closer gear ratio's which for some is ok, for others its pointless.

The thing that gets my goat is that to upgrade in a year or two you will have to buy a completly new draintrain and therefore it will cost a fortune to do.

it will mean I hope that I can have half a road block and half an MTB block

Why would you want to? That sounds ridiculous! What does the bottom end of a road block give you than an MTB one doeesn't? Or are you literally thinking of using the 32/36 with the rest of a road cassette, that'll shift beautifully!

I was really looking forward to 10s XTR, as I want full cassette/chainset compatibility with road shifters for the non-purist crossbike.
Now its just a choice between cheap heavy-ish XT or silly-money SRAM XX.
So I'm not too happy either way.

XTR will go 10 speed, they've just not unveiled it yet.

You could do that combo anyway though, XX cassette (or Funworks ti which is slightly cheaper), with a Shimano MTB mech.

You can already buy 10 speed Shimano compatible MTB size cassettes. The name will come to me in a moment...

[url= http://www.etailsport.com/custom_cassette_10speed.htm ]Something like this perhaps?[/url]

Yeah? I thought the biggest that they did was a 27t.
I'm waiting 'til I wear out my existing 9s cassette before replacing the whole system.

Now its just a choice between cheap heavy-ish XT or silly-money SRAM XX.

Nope. XO, X9 and X7 are all going 10 speed next year. Plus XTR is yet to be announced. There will be a separate announcement as they didn't want to detract from it by launching at the same time as XT and SLX which aren't actually that revolutionary.

XTR is a ground-up rework, so needs its own 'space'.

[img] [/img]
Solarider yesterday

Shimano is a year ahead because if SRAM don't bring out 3x10 I'll eat my hat. 🙂

There will be no 10 speed here. 9 speed ain't up to the job. I'm going down to 8 speed when my current stuff wears out!

[b]Look at 'is Rolex Stanloy...![/b]

GXP bottom bracket on the X9, worst B/B in my cycling history assuming it's the same as the Truvativ Team chainset one?

LOL. 😀

DeVs yesterday?

[img] [/img]

DeVs next year when SRAM don't release 3 x 10 because 2 x 10 is great and 3 x 10 completely misses the point?!

[img] [/img]

My comments on XTR were meant to be slightly tongue in cheek, but if you had a new and totally reworked flagship to announce, would you do it at the same time as a partial rehash of 2 lower groupsets?

Because I'm tempted by this and my drivetrain needs an overhaul and I can get both at trade I'm all a dither.
With one bike I've one choice and with Transalp 2011 in mind I think I need the 3X9, but want the 2X9.

X.0 or X.9 in a 2x9, 26/39 chainset with 11-36 cassette. Gives you virtually the same bottom gear as a 22/32.

If you have an issue with the Truvativ BB, buy SRAM despite it, wait until the BB needs replacing then fit a Hope. Job done. You'll only have to do the same with Shimano eventually anyway. Having said that, my experience of Truvativ BBs isn't that bad.

Chainline is better with a triple as long as you're not using crossover gears I'd have thought?

Also 2x10 is an encouragement to use smalxsmall which is the most wearing of all the combinations.

It's amazing how these new gears systems have taken away the traditional problems of derailleur gears and chain drives, if that's what a 10 speed blck enables you to do the Campagnolo 11 speed must be earth shattering....

There is an issue using the outer rings of a triple with the extremeties at the back for sure. However, the 2 rings up front are positioned well within the outer extremities of what would have been a triple setup. Therefore, the lateral play is less. Coupled with a slightly thinner chain, it's not so much of a problem. Agreed it hasn't eliminated the basic principles of chain crossover but it has minimised them.

I am running 11 speed Campag on my road bikes, and I can tell you that the 11th cog is not so earth shattering. It doesn't increase your range, but instead reduces the gaps in between gears. Not such a big deal for amateurs, although the Pros love it apparently.

However, the 10th cog offroad is more fundamental. It is just the extra needed to run a double up front and still have a wide and usable range out back without big gaps. So, whilst 11 speed on the road offers only minor advantages over 10 speed, 10 speed offroad is the tipping point to a completely different front setup. So, big difference between the 2.

Chainline is better with a triple as long as you're not using crossover gears I'd have thought?

How do you figure? You get rid of the extremes, and surely big/big is far more wearing than small/small, the angle's vastly more acute. You don't have that combination on a 2x9 effectively.

I haven't got the balls to just buy it, I'd want to test it first.
Anyway youve tried and tested it of course. I still feel like I'd be giving up or losing something.
Like I said in my earlier posts I use the middle and about three gears out back 95% of the time, so fine for that.
Racing? yes I see the advantage.
But for all day epics like the Transalp I'm not so sure.

Fair enough, I wouldn't change back for doing the Trans Alp, I didn't change to do a 12 hour solo when I was running 2x9 either, depends on your riding style/strength really!

How do you figure? You get rid of the extremes, and surely big/big is far more wearing than small/small, the angle's vastly more acute. You don't have that combination on a 2x9 effectively.

Oldgit. I can understand your reluctance. As Njee20 said, if your current kit isn't worn out, it's probably not worth changing for the sake of it. But if (like you, and like me at the time) you need to change anyway, and you can get it cheap, it's a no brainer.

The point is that

1) You don't lose gear range (same as 2 x 9)
2) All of the gears are usable with little duplication (unlike 3 x 9)
3) Front shifting is quicker (rings can be thicker and stiffer, plus the matched pairs of chainrings inherently shift better, plus you are only ever in 1 of 2 rather than 1 of 3 gears up front)

And all combined with a weight saving.

The extremes are only "less extreme" by half the distance between chainrings.

Well big/big becomes the equivalent of middle/big in terms of chain line.

Going 44/34 generally makes horrible noises when running a triple, going into 42/36 on XX things continue to run perfectly smoothly. Have you actually used XX, or is this the usual STW 'assumed knowledge'?[b]

Njee20. I think we might be alone in this particular thread in having used 2 x 10 for quite a while now. There does seem to be a bit of assumed knowledge happening elsewhere here!

One of 2 things is happening:

1) Having tried and tested 2 x 10 XX for quite a few months now, we really understand the benefits, despite the fact that we are both prepared to see the drawbacks of some of XX (not connected with the 2 x 10 concept by the way).

or

2) Based on no experience of the kit, and a theoretical rather than practical understanding, everybody else is right.

I know which I believe!

This isn't a case of the Emperors New Clothes. I am not trying to justify the expense. Honestly, if I had just spent that much on XX and didn't like it, I would be telling everybody to avoid the same mistake. I genuinely believe 2 x 10 is a step forward, and that comes from experience in mud, in snow, in dust, on a hardtail, on a full susser, so I feel quite well informed to make these comments.

Sturmey Archer 4 speed off road anyone? an old bloke still uses it on The Three Peaks none of this 2x10 nonsense

Alfine 11 speed = the future

Edric - Funny, don't remember seeing him on the podium? (and before anybody starts, I know it's not about the bike etc!)

I have said it before. The point here is getting out and enjoying riding whatever you have. Price, condition, etc etc none of it matters. What matters is the miles and the smiles. If you can't afford, or chose not to buy the latest kit, fine. If you can, that's OK too, although some people do seem to take offence and assume that it's 'willy waving', or that because you have a nice bike, you can't possibly ride it. Me, personally, I am interested in the technical as well as fitness/social/exploration elements of the sport and make no apology for it.

However the original point of the thread (remember that - it seems to have been lost somewhere along the way) is that if you are going to release new gear based around a 10 speed rear cluster, or if you are going to buy new gear (which nobody is obliged to do of course!) based around a 10 speed cluster, then why not make the most of the concept?

Nobody has said that you need any of this to have fun on a bike. But, since Shimano have launched something new, it is natural to comment on it, what with this being a bike related forum. I just think they have missed a trick and put themselves a year behind SRAM.

SRAM launched the glagship in 2010, with the trickle-down groupsets in 2011. Shimano have chosen to launch the flagship in 2011 (XTR will be announced soon), and a bit of a rehash of everything else, which may yet turn into a full trickle down of XTR in 2011 or 2012. Shimano could have at least caught up with SRAM, but have chosen not to.

There is far more innovation in XX, XO, X9 and X7 than has been displayed by Shimano in today's release. Hence another point of the original thread. When will we see XTR and the real changes?

Of course I've not used it njee20, I'm just trying to get you to state something meaningful, which you now have!

Of course [s]I've not used it[/s] I have no idea what I'm talking about njee20

Hope you don't mind me paraphrasing...

Ummm....has anyone mentioned that you could just take the big ring off?

I've never said I had experience of 2 x 10 have I, nor made made any statement based on or assuming such knowledge?

Whereas the OP has implied it stops pedal bob 🙄

[i]am running 2 x 10 on a full susser with no adverse pedal induced feedback.[/i]

Ummm....has anyone mentioned that you could just take the big ring off?

Of course, and that's what plenty of people have done in the past (me included), combining with a big 10 speed cassette gives you a wider range of gears with smaller jumps. Same as 9 speed did really.

Again, if you don't want it, here's a shock idea, don't buy it!

But he doesn't say that he did have pedal bob with a 3x9. I assume that was in reference to the comment that bikes are designed to be ridden in the middle ring, which is in fact dependant on pivot placement.

Wow there Cynic-al! I like 2 x 10, but I have never implied it has magic powers!

What I said was that I haven't notice pedal bob, but I ride a suspension system not reknowned for it, and without a pivot position in line with a theoretical middle ring.

I have never implied it as the cure for pedal bob. That would be stretching it a bit far.

But, now you mention it, I am sure a 2 x 10 setup could negotiate peace in the Middle East, blow the Icelandic cloud away and cure poverty in Africa..........Asking it cure pedal bob is a bit much though.

I can see that 2x10 would offer weight and ratio advantages, but it aslo encourages teh conditions that cause most weat to chains and chain rings.

Small Small cause so much problem because the degree of engagement is less putting more strees on fewer places.

Have you read Sheldon?

I've actually considered running 2x9 with a wide ratio block but to be fair I'm going to be shifting crazily the whole time at the front to use the gears that I use the most having looked at gear inch tables for teh gears that I tend to use most.

Crikey, that's a bit anal, I just pedal the bike and think 'hmmm, I just did 3 hours in the big ring, these ratios seem to work well'!

What I will say is that I run out of gears in the middle ring and the outer takes some winding up during a race, that's why I asked about different size rings.
I also notice drag when I'm forced to use a poor ratio.
I really like the idea of the 39? doing all the work of the middle and outer.
Is the XX designed to be used big/big small/small?

Sheldon (RIP) was a good egg and his writings are generally accurate, but he died before XX was really out there.

Technology has moved on even in the short time since his unfortunate demise.

I can give you direct feedback having used the stuff. It is silent (whereas my 3 x 9 did used to grumble in low gears). Chain overlap is not an issue (which it was with 3 x 9). I'm a convert, and when the time comes to change, I would recommend it to anybody.

Oldgit - XX is inddeed designed to be used big/big, small/small. And it works too. Believe the hype. No noise, quick shifts. It's great. In this sense, you actually have a wider range of useable gears in each front ring, so you shift less in the end. The big ring on a 2 x 10 doesn't quite do the same job as the middle and outer on a 3 x 9, but not far off.

As I said earlier, I am not sure how much of this is down to XX, how much will genuinely trickle down, and how much is purely down to the double up front.

cynic-al,

running 2 x 9, 26/38 front, 11-32 rear (I think).

38-11 is more then enough, that I've never been able to see exactly what speed I spin out on mostly cause I stopped using a computer ages ago, but also because I rarely get it up to that gear. I have a feeling its somewhere in the region of 35mph, though.

So unless I've got a huge road descent down a mountain to the trails, or I have normal roads to the trails, and just fancy going at 40mph all the way there (likely..), its not a problem at all.

I shall enquire about the trade price tonight.

Only thing now is running one MTB all year round on XX or the cheaper? 2011 version.

That said I've just put a £200 order in with him for drivetrain consumables. And he reckons my XTR shifters are on the way out. See what I'm doing here 🙂

Trade prices on XX are pretty hilarious sadly!

Bum.

The cassette is the really daft bit, if you can hold out until a conventional cassette is available it will certainly be a fair cheaper option than the PowerDome one.

Oldgit - I can see exactly what you are doing there!

To me, the benefit of XX has all been down to the quick front shifts and the usefulness of the 2 x 10 concept. Since this has now / is about to trickle down, I would go at most for X0, and probably X9. At the very least go for a cheaper cassette. By the looks of it, XX will be the only carbon chainset, but that in itself is no great revelation. The chainrings and front mech (which look very similar on new X0 but just with alloy arms) are the bit that matters.

XX is the ultimate bling, but now that the tricle down has started, I would wait a bit for that to be available. It just isn't worth the premium unless every single gramme counts and you must have the best. I make no apology for having expensive taste in bikes, so for me it was worth it, plus I have been riding it for 4 months vs waiting another few months more for the trickle down effect to happen.

Must admit I was getting all cocky untill I saw the casette price.
Everything looks about double XTR except the chainset which ain't too bad.

[url= http://www.actionsports.de/Cassettes/Fun-Works-S-Light-Titan-MTB-Cassette-10-Speed-176g::24524.html ]This[/url] full ti one is far cheaper ironically, but doesn't come in the 11-36.

Don't be fooled. Current XTR prices will go up when the new stuff is announced.

It is already expensive, but since price doesn't seem to have been a barrier to XX, and they want to elevate XTR to 'supergroup' status again, I have a feeling that whilst individual components may vary, the total groupset price will be in line with XX.

And, whilst the XX cassette is very expensive, it's not hard to see why given the extremely wasteful and lengthy manufacturing process. The result is light, stiff, and hopefully being steel long lasting, although time will tell.

I have like sooooooooooooooooo many problems from flexing cassettes WTF 😛

Actually why don't sram hear treat their XX stuff in the same manner as samurai swords?

Might cost a bit but would last ages.

You miss the point entirely. Since it is so hollowed out, and there isn't much supporting it, it could have been a bit flexible. It isn't a comment about cassettes being flexible in general.

Honestly, some people are sooooooo touchy!

You miss the point entirely. Since it is so hollowed out, and there isn't much supporting it, it could have been a bit flexible. It isn't a comment about cassettes being flexible in general.

Honestly, some people are sooooooo touchy!

Ah, I mis-interpreted.

Some folk has said it's an issue on regular cassettes TBF.

Just waiting for 1x11 to be honest, which will be Shimano 1 Sram 0 if the current Alfine is anything to go by.

Al don't bother my experience about njee is that he considers riding around a muddy field mountain biking.
He doesn't even ride with a camelback or a spare tube (I still am waiting for you to answer some of the question on the other thread by the way).

If you oppose a valid argument to him he will just rely on insults and get offensive. Just don't bother you and I probably know better than him...

As for 2x10 I am so gnar to the power of sick that I use 2x9 :p And it's been 6 years now 😀

Just saw the SRAM piccies on the homepage. I now agree with myself even more! Shimano have some catching up to do.

But i don't want 2X10. I'm not a skinny bastard who races carbon bikes around a field. 2X9 is plenty, 27 too many (for what I ride). I'm hoping that some strength training will rid me of the need for a small chainring. 1 X 9 would be great. No front derailleur, no LH shifter and a nice tidy short chain. And SRAM can **** off with those prices.
I just had an amazing rip around whites level in the middle chainring, hope the training works!

Sorry Juan, which was the other thread, I can't actually remember?

I'm pretty sure I'm quite a reasonable chap actually Juan, sadly there seem to be more people who side with me for the most part. Let me guess, that's just xenophobia?

Just don't bother you and I probably know better than him...

What's that based on then? Go on, as you obviously know me so well? Do you even know my name? It's used on here often enough!

I'm unsure of where I've said riding around muddy fields is mountain biking, again, a link would be nice. I believe you've been to this neck of the woods before, drop me an email next time, we'll go for a ride, you can show me some of your rad to the power sick skillz.

2x10 sounds just right for me. I rarely use the low gears on my current 3x9 setup and since I ride singlespeed quite a bit, I know I can muscle up a hill if I need to. Since I also ride TT bikes I've got used to closer spacing on the back. In fact I'd be tempted to use a road 10spd on the rear. Summit like a 11-28.

Shimano 10spd on XT and SLX [url= http://www.pinkbike.com/news/shimano-10-speed-xt-sea-otter-2010.html ]link[/url].

Whether it's just XX or whether the shiting is inherently better on 2 rings up front, the real revelation of 2 x 10 is at the front. All the back does is facilitate the 2 rings up front without losing gear range.

These days, unless you use proper roadie equipment you can go lighter with discs!

http://clee-cycles.co.uk/cc/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_73/products_id/398
http://clee-cycles.co.uk/cc/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_73/products_id/475
http://clee-cycles.co.uk/cc/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/61_63/products_id/306

~190g rear, 160g front - what disc brake was it you were using which was lighter?

"having said that the 11-36 cassette is of interest for 1x10"

11-36 would be just as useful on 9 speed though. As far as I can tell the only reason there's not already an XT and 990 11-36 9-speed is that it's supposed to be a selling point of 10-speed so it's not in their interests to launch it for the old standard. Or perhaps I'm being cynical 😉

...actually I've now realised there isn't even a real decrease in weight with 2x10 assuming you're using an SRAM chainset, rather than one of the numerous lighter 3 ring chainsets available.