[Closed] Retraining your body to eat fat not carbs- what to eat pre, during and post ride

I remember starting a similar thread 18 months ago before I set my self a goal of losing the weight I'd gained in my thirties.

I've dropped 24kg so far (from 110kg down to 86kg) and am now thinking 80kg might be achievable.

I would say the majority of that was simply down to reducing my calorie intake but I have been doing a lot of riding before breakfast or fatigue riding as it's been referred to.

I do a mix of rides, either into work which is 25 miles usually or if working from home, a longer ride before 9am of up to 50 miles, which I can do without eating before (but not without drinking coffee!)

I'm typically in Zone 3 for my ride into work (HR of around 145-150 avg, where my max is c. 195) or Zone 3/4 for a 50 mile loop (avg around 160-165 with avg speed of around 30kph)

I couldn't say if it works for fat burn or not, but I've lost weight so I don't really care too much!

plyphon - Member
Cool - well, I provided a very well regarded text with my link complete with referenced sources to back up my claims.

All you lot have just spunked off on your keyboards without giving any such backup to your claims...

What I put down was what I knew worked when I was young, and still works for me.

No one is interested in running a scientific study on the likes of me. Sports nutrition experiments seem to be done on exclusively on elite athletes who have a long history of training and high existing levels of fitness.

There's not really much for the ordinary rider - which may be why we see so much vomiting when we try to emulate the elite riders nutrition on hard rides.

There's not really much for the ordinary rider - which may be why we see so much vomiting when we try to emulate the elite riders nutrition on hard rides.

Extremely fair point well received. 😆

I call troll on plyphon, no-one is that stupid

All you lot have just spunked off on your keyboards without giving any such backup to your claims.

I'm not a sport nutritionist so I won't start posting links from either side of any POV as I don't have the knowledge to evaluate them. Reading the basics and then real-world experience says that fasted riding is part of how I got a better understanding of how the body reacts to different fuelling (or lack of) methods. It changed when and what I eat during rides and was part of a period of weight loss and better cycling performance. Put into practice, I've seen good results that I could refer to, not just anecdotes. That's all the back-up I need, after all it was just an opinion and experience shared )

From a personal, subjective approach it's hard to get a good idea of what is happening with the diet/energy/weightloss balance as there isn't a lot of consistency as to when and how much riding I do - even though I do a lot of riding in a week. I also do a lot of eating. I could lose a tiny bit off my middle if that was important but right now I want to be fit for riding long distances and that means eating for the ride, during it and then recovery the day after.

I have experimented with different levels of carb input/energy output. One instance last year where I got it badly wrong and had a full on dizzy, fall off the bike, lose the ability to think clearly bonk after a couple of miles on a five mile commute home. I err on the side of keeping a surplus of fuel in the tank these days.

roscopeco -

Did my cycling stamina improve? Again, I'm struggling to really justify this approach against proper training regimes. I did the WHW whilst doing the above and it was certainly wasn't a breeze. In fairness, i struggled time wise to get many 'long' training rides in, 75% of my training was very much concentrated on 1 - 3 hr stints.

I read this interesting article and it seems to suggest the majority of us cyclist 'overeat' when on the bike. I can vouch for that. On one of my few long (8hrs) WHW training rides I stopped and ate half a soreen loaf in one sitting...I very nearly puked within an hour and the rest of ride was a HUGE struggle as my tum stopped accepting anything...including plain water. I later discovered that whilst soreen loaf is a great thing to eat it's stuffed with carbs and my tum probably just gave up trying to digest anything. I was a total mess by the end...Mrs Rossco wasn't amused!

I'm now 'training' for a 10ish hour ride on the Great Glen Way and I've decided to follow the British cycling recommendations re eating / drinking 60-70g of carbs every hour at a steady cycling pace. I'm out maybe 3 times a week doing 2 shortish slots at a medium to high pace (2.5hr), and 1 long stint at a medium pace. I try to 'up' my time on the bike by 1 hour each week. A good handful of wine gums / nuts / fig rolls / small chunks of snickers works in the main for me. So far so good....If I start getting peckish, 1/2 a peanut / jam sandwich and a few gulps of milk hit the spot every time.

Just go out and ride and don't think too much about it!

That last sentence is the key. I'm gearing up for the WHW myself and did the Rob Roy Way (and a bit) over 12 hours just over a week ago. I ate every 1.5 - 2 hours and had wholemeal pitta with pate or houmous/salad, a chicken pasta meal I had prepared, numerous oat/fruit/choc snack bars, oatcakes and a lot of roasted almonds. A quarter into the ride I had as a (small) emergency measure, a bottle of lucozade. The day started with an enormous bowl of porridge and on finishing my ride I had a large sausage roll and for the first time in years, a chocolate bar.
I felt that I got it right with food that day. The WHW will be at least 6 hours more so a strategy will be needed to avoid having to buy a bigger rucksack just to carry all the food.

if something works for someone, it works - you don't need a scientific explanation for it.
and there are several people talking about low intensity fasted riding helping them to lose weight which is what the OP asked about.

I call troll on plyphon, no-one is that stupid

Go on then, enlighten me.

😀 looks under the bridge for Hora the OP...

Anyway I like to drink a mixture of Cindy Crawford's breast milk, mixed with Greenland iceberg water and a smidge of Pacific Atoll Mountain salt# other than that I just follow the Coppi training method
"Ride your bike, ride your bike, ride your bike"

Sometimes during a long ride I have to loose my bowels...it takes ages to find them.

#Only when I can get it

Rule#5 in conjunction with Rule#91 - No Food On Training Rides Under Four Hours.

That'll see you right 😆

Fasted rides are seldom executed properly. You should have fasted for at least 12 hours before doing them, they need to be longer than an hour really. Having your usual 700kcal+ dinner, going to sleep a few hours later, waking up and riding, fuelled by your dinner is not a fasted ride. If you don't need to eat when you get back, you're not doing them properly, either that or you're kidding yourself. Then if you are doing them properly the issue is that it is really easy to make yourself ill. Unless you have a coach who is monitoring what you are doing including an overview of what your are eating, they're probably not a good idea.

Remember, the proportion of fab metabolised at z2 is far higher than in z4, however the absolute amount is about the same. To word that differently, 2x20 minute z4 efforts will probably have about the same metabolic use of fats as an hour 'fat burn ride' with far higher use of carbs as fuel, in addition. If fat utilisation is basically the same and carbohydrate utilisation is higher for the z4 efforts, it's obvious which one is going to have greater efficacy in improving performance and will have a greater calorific expenditure. Fit your diet to your training, not the other way round. Carbohydrates are good things, just keep 'em low g.i. !

You should have fasted for at least 12 hours before doing them, they need to be longer than an hour really. Having your usual 700kcal+ dinner, going to sleep a few hours later waking up and riding, fuelled by your dinner is not a fasted ride.

Useful. Is this based on how long it takes to metabolise food and how long you can store glycogen before it's deposited as fat?

Not 100% sure, it's just something someone I know with a phd in sports' nutrition told me. Basically the idea is that your glycogen stores are empty or nearly empty when you start the ride, so that it gives you no option other than to use fat as a fuel. Therefore there's no actual need to fast if you want to improve fat utilisation, you just need to control intensity properly and do it for a long time. The efficacy compared to shorter, more intense efforts in improving performance is very low though. They're a thing for endurance/ultra-endurance athletes really where fat utilisation is v important.

OK. Wasn't sure if it was that or blood sugar levels etc. ?I think glycogen is said to be stored for around 6hrs before processing as fat reserves, so with a few hours digestion etc 12hrs makes sense. I know if I eat a good low fat, carb heavy meal at the usual dinner time my legs feel full of go early the next morning, less than 12hrs after eating, but if I wait till 12 mid day or later to ride I feel pretty normal.

Good point on fat / carbs splits at various paces. If you were looking just to shift weight the opinions seem to be do more 1hr turbo sessions at z4-5 if up to it, will do more for your fitness overall too. If you're looking to improve endurance through better fuel efficiency the early am on empty thing seems to have positive effects, yet being able to ride at a higher 'base' rate via HIT will also help. I couldn't say which of those was most effective to me, but I did start with the fasted rides and move onto HIT to add to that once my endurance was at a basically sound level.

I think it's more to do with insulin than anything, if you're fasted insulin is v low, if insulin is v low a higher proportion of energy used will come from fat. More fat used means your fat utilisation will improve. Could be wrong though.

Thanks for your comments ollie51. I would agree with most of what you say, especially about high intensity rides burning fat. There is also the "after burn" effect where mitochondrial activity remains high following high intensity activity and therefore contributes to calories use.
I've bled hundreds of patients following an overnight fast and tested glucose and lipid levels. 12 hours post prandial is usually enough to reduce to a baseline level.
I doubt very much glycogen levels will fall to almost nothing following a 12 hour fast, but will need to check my science.

Thanks ollie + jobro.

I doubt very much glycogen levels will fall to almost nothing following a 12 hour fast, but will need to check my science.

They won't unless they are used, maybe it has something to do with availability? Can't be insulin because it doesn't take that long to fall. Like I said, I not sure!

I am in no way any sort of expert, i did my degree in P.E. but that was 20 years ago and many things and thought processes have changed.

Firstly i would really recommend this book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Faster-Obsession-Science-Fastest-Cyclists/dp/1408843757/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1401802737&sr=8-1&keywords=Faster

It is written by Michael Hutchinson who was/is a world class time-trialler it is explains a lot of the science really well and in an amusing and interesting way, including a lot of what Team Sky have got right and how even many pro's are set in their ways and have bad habits and debunks a lot of the myths.

Personally, I think that the best way to get "fit" and too lose weight is to keep the body guessing and really vary your training, so one or two 90 minute zone 2 fasted rides in the mornings. On your long rides at the weekend, do one as a zone 2 ride, the other long ride as mostly zone 3 with sprints/ hill climbs mixed in and then a few sessions on turbo or stationary bike, one of 10 mins warm up and down, with 40 minutes (or more) at threshold and a second session of HIIT training where you are really training anaerobically.

If you do nothing but long slow rides, then surpringly you become really good at long slow rides, if you mix it up then I think you get the advantages of each type of training, trying to start using fat more as a fuel but also really getting your metabolism firing with the High intensity stuff.

I also think that the worst thing you can do is "diet", if you really reduce calories down with a boring diet, then firstly the will power won't last long, secondly after a few weeks of training you'll struggle to have the energy to ride much. Best to have eat properly but to enjoy your food too, let the weight come off slowly and make sure you eat at the right times, so making sure that refuel in the first 30 minutes after exercise, not eating loads of carbs last thing at night etc.

Proper fat burning rides require extensive colonic irrigation beforehand.

Proper fat burning rides require extensive colonic irrigation beforehand

I think you're talking out your ar*e

Just ordered that book looks good!

The other thing that is guaranteed to help with going faster and losing weight?

Give up alcohol.

Have a read of Barry Murray's site, specifically his blog - http://www.optimumnutrition4sport.com/

He currently works with the BMC Development Squad, and is something of an expert on racing and training fasted and boosting fat burning. I know that he races ultramarathons in a fasted state and what he doesn't know about the subject probably isn't worth knowing!

[i]Can't be insulin because it doesn't take that long to fall. Like I said, I not sure![/i]

Insulin is released in reaction to elevated glucose levels in the blood. When that glucose is either used or stored, with the subsequent lowering of blood glucose. Insulin levels also then subside. The higher the glycemic load of the food consumed, the more insulin will be released and the longer it will take for insulin levels to subside, while your body processes all that glucose.

Looking at stored fat. When insulin is elevated (high blood glucose levels), fat cells are prevented from releasing fat into the blood stream.
However, once insulin levels subside in respect to lower blood glucose levels. Then fat cells are permitted to release fat into the blood stream where it can be used as a source of energy.

So going with all the above, fat will be most readily used for energy, when blood insulin levels are low. Hence why fasted exercise will see more fat used for energy, as so many here have reported.

I'll do a 40-50 mile ride, during a couple of hours, fasted, no issues.

As others have mentioned. Be careful watching the 'Pro' cyclists. Unlike a lot of folk, during the season, Pro-cyclists should already be at what they consider to be their optimal weight and body fat percentage, to achieve their best performance. Which is very much different to Joe Public wanting to shed a few kilos of lard before the hols, etc.

[i]Only if you sprint up hills at 90% for 2-3hrs ) You do start to digest muscle for energy if you keep riding well past the proper bonk stage, but that takes some doing.[/i]
You'll only "sprint" up hills for 2-3 hours, at 90% of what you're capable of in that moment. [b]Not[/b] 90% of you're all-out capability.
As for gluconeogenesis, you're unlikely to induce this condition on a single ride. As mentioned above, nature's way to stop the silly boys and girls from going too far on empty, is to hand them a good dose of the bonk.
Which as some here have reported. Does its job of stopping you until your body can catch up, with the help of 11 sausage sarnies.
😉

I find Chip's recalling his bonking storey of riding into the tent to purchase all the cakes he could get for a fiver. Quite amusing.

I find Chip's recalling his bonking storey of riding into the tent to purchase all the cakes he could get for a fiver. Quite amusing.

I ride with a mate (Boltonjon) on here, who is in a different fitness league to me, but due it being the New Year period and i think a bit of alcohol related lowering of blood sugar, we did the Spam Challenge on Salisbury Plain and one of my lasting memories as he strted to bonk was pleading a marshall and offering him cash for some of his wife's xmas cake he'd bought for his lunch.

The method I use doesn't require the reading of any scientific reports, measuring of food, or counting of calories.

It is more than likely not an optimum but does that really matter if it is so simple?

Just do what you normally do except for the ride before breakfast and the actual breakfast.

[i]as he strted to bonk was pleading a marshall and offering him cash for some of his wife's xmas cake he'd bought for his lunch.[/i]

Aye, the bonk is a terrible thing. Turns any of us into a quivering wreck. And hopefully a lesson to be remembered...

in answer to the OP - nuts

[i]in answer to the OP - nuts[/i]

Do you enjoy your nuts, pre, during or apres-ride ?

at all times - although I'm not fond of that kind of thin brown husk that adheres to the kernel after removing the shell, I generally tend to scrape it off with my fingernail.. hence you'll often find me stood around in the woods and hills scratching my nuts

Still laughing at coconut and Himalayan sea salt.
By the way, don't be tempted by paleo stuff, utter bilge.
This....:
http://www.thegreatcourses.co.uk/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=1950
was very good, available on audible. Always look for a dietician for real advice, they're professionals. I'm a sports nutritionist and so is everybody else. Not a legally protected title see....

[i]hence you'll often find me stood around in the woods and hills scratching my nuts[/i]

Well that discounts you eating your nuts during the ride.

Edit:
Do you roast and salt your own, or do have someone else do that for you ?

I prefer my nuts to be au naturale

By the way, don't be tempted by paleo stuff, utter bilge.

Evidence?

[i]I prefer my nuts to be au naturale[/i]

That's before you've scraped them with your fingernail ^^^^

I've tried a kebab either before or during, but never post-ride.

[i]schmiken - Member
By the way, don't be tempted by paleo stuff, utter bilge.
Evidence?[/i]

Don't take the bait.

Trying so hard not to feed the troll, I've got work I should be doing! 🙂

[i]Trying so hard not to feed the troll, I've got work I should be doing![/i]

Which reminds me. Where's the OP ? Ok, he's harmless enough, but IIRC, he's usual more active on his own threads.
❓

I pickedc up a lot from thinking about the stuff by Phil Maffetone in connection with 'metabolic efficiency training'.

The topic has been well covered on a fair few of the [url= http://trailrunnernation.com/category/podcasts/ ]Trail Runner Nation podcasts[/url] - granted they approach the question from the perspective of ultra-running, but endurance athletics are endurance athletics whatever ...

The short version always comes down to the same thing tho' - don't eat crappy food. 😛

ton - Member
I trust idave

Want to PM me your online banking logon details?

Just in case you lose them, obviously 😆

Following this with interest. I've been following a pretty "primal" diet for about a month now (through necessity rather than choice) & have been quite surprised at the results. I've lost half a stone & dropped a jean size - can't remember when I was last in 30" Levi's. I feel great, but this may be more to do with cutting wheat & dairy; I've found/rediscovered some great foods - I'm probably the only one nodding sagely at the coconut milk & Mongolian sea salt.

I rode Charlie's 100 mile gravel dash the other weekend & was frankly a little worried about how I'd cope, especially only 2-3 wks into the diet & not being fully adapted. I ate a normal size meal of chicken & sweet potatoes on the evening before & then a couple of sausages with egg, almond butter & banana pancakes for brekkie (try 'em).

The first 90 mins were hard work, especially keeping up with my buddy, but then everything clicked into place. Fuelled during the ride on nuts, dried fruit & a couple of bananas, oh & a slab of chicken liver pate & a chunk of ham in the pub at lunch time. Post ride I experienced zero muscle pain.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out with faster paced, shorter rides of around 6 hrs.

I find Chip's recalling his bonking storey of riding into the tent to purchase all the cakes he could get for a fiver. Quite amusing.

I'm sure there was a thread on here yonks ago regaling stories of the bonk/hitting the wall. The funniest I read was someone saying they were trying to prize the brake pads out of the caliper to eat the pad material they were that desperate

What worked for me was idave diet/4 hour body and some training.

When i was into it all I had a fitness test done 5 years ago and this was the result

[img] [/img]

The guy said my base endurance was terrible and this showed at 127bpm i was only burning 43% from fat. He said this should be way over half!

Anyway. to cut a long story short i followed the idave diet for 5 months. I lost 7kg (mainly fat) and increased that 43% figure to 84%. I never did any training rides over 1hr (mostly indoor base training)

[i]The funniest I read was someone saying they were trying to prize the brake pads out of the caliper to eat the pad material they were that desperate[/i]
I think some fellas, stuck in the antarctic, were reduced to eating the grease from bearings in machinery they had with them. Obviously, the husky dogs had already been eaten. But that was just straight starvation.

[i]Anyway. to cut a long story short i followed the idave diet for 5 months. I lost 7kg (mainly fat) and increased that 43% figure to 84%. I never did any training rides over 1hr (mostly indoor base training)[/i]
That is impressive. How's things going since then ?

Asking for evidence against paleo diet is a little like asking for scientific evidence against homeopathy.
But here's a read anyway...:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-paleo-diet-half-baked-how-hunter-gatherer-really-eat/