Out of interest Hora, have you played with lower pressures at all?
I've recently found going down to around 6bar/80psi has improved comfort and grip and not appreciably impaired rolling, that's with 25c(apparently deadly) basic conti gatorskins, they're not perfect (more due to being a cheaper tyre), but going to a lower pressure has made noticable improvements...
I get the impression that a lot of people run 23c tyres at 90-100+psi for "general" road riding and won't countenance going that bit lower on pressure to improve comfort and grip for fear of some massive loss in rolling performance, but it's not the case, we simply don't have the lovely smooth tamac in the UK for rock hard tyres to be very effective...
OK I'm still new to this- wouldn't dropping PSI increase pinchflat (or the risk of punctures)?
Depends where you ride.
Round here I run 25c at 75 front / 85 rear (and +10 for 23c.) But then I'm mostly riding training routes I know well and have picked them for having a reasonable surface. And I'm not that heavy either. Never pinch flat.
Try it and see what you think. If you pinch flat loads then up the pressures.
Edit: FWIW, I find lower pressures work better with supple tyres like open tubulars and latex tubes. Tend to run higher pressures on the 4 seasons with heavier butyl tubes, they don't feel as nice at the lower pressures.
Why not try some nice wheels first to see if they make a difference?
Got some Dura Ace 9000 C50s on 25mm Conti GP4000s, I'm heading Huddersfield way tomorrow, heading home Sunday if you want to give them a whirl? Mail in profile.
Sounds good- I could give them a spin up and over Castle Hill/Farnley/Mast way. Where are you going to be (I'll come to you). Of course -if I bend/scratch or rip its replace. I'll email you.
Go tubs hora, A man of your calibre deserves them...
I'll sleep well Sat night- Peaks ride in am, road in aft 8)
C50's and those slab sided forks!!!! You'll never stay upright.
You wont know whether its the Dura Ace wheels or the better GP4000S tyres that feels different, so it won't be a meaningful test.
Until you can quantify what is wrong with your bike you wont know how to improve it. It seems you've settled on wheels purely on the grounds they're a substantial part of the bike that is affordable to change.
My carbon Lapierre is lighter and stiffer than the ally bike it replaced, and turns in more quickly but then feels more stable mid corner. Whether that's the carbon, geometry, weight distribution or riding position I dont know, there was nothing wrong with the ally Orbea but the Lapierre is better and certainly not 'dead'
Oh, and been doing at least 100 miles a week every week since June 2013, split between Lapierre and a commuter/winter bike. Winter bike is on second set of pads but neither wheels (Ultegras on Lapierre, Aksiums on winter bike) show any measurable wear.
Going tubeless improved how mine felt but not because the frame was shit just because wheelset & tyres were better so I would definitely try some better wheels/tyres
Not the same bike, but I had a px kaffenback 2. I changed the OEM wheels (deore hubs and mach 820 rims) for a set of Hope/Archteypes. Everything else remained the same, tires, tubes etc.
The bike was transformed from something dead and wooden to something much more lively. Net cost to change was around £150 but worth every penny.
Oh, and been doing at least 100 miles a week every week since June 2013, split between Lapierre and a commuter/winter bike. Winter bike is on second set of pads but neither wheels (Ultegras on Lapierre, Aksiums on winter bike) show any measurable wear.
Not bad going I guess, how hilly are your rides though? Although I'd have thought commuting would wear out your rims quickly.
I usually do between 200 - 300 miles per week, although when I wore my rims out last time I was going up and down Wrynose pass quite alot I seem to remember, needs the brakes on the way down in the wet for sure, so thats what probably did them.
On every bike I've I've owned I've kept all the same decent kit and carried over onto a frame/fork. Upgrade the wheels/tyres is an investment as it'll be carried over too I guess.
Question (newbie)- can you use std road tyres with tubeless clincher rims?
No. For road wheels you need tubeless tyres to run tubeless as the bead needs to be stronger.
MrBlobby - But I think can use normal tyres with tubes on tubeless rims though?
Question (newbie)- can you use std road tyres with tubeless clincher rims?
yes, I have Ultegra 6700 wheels which are tubeless compatible (they come with the valves so all I'd need to buy would be tubeless-specific tyres and sealant) but use normal GP4000s with tubes.
Wrynose pass quite alot I seem to remember, needs the brakes on the way down in the wet for sure,
my rides are rolling (oxfordshire) and most of the descents on my hill loops dont require much braking (either long flat run-outs or carry momentum into the next climb). Long and wet braking-heavy descents will definitely do rims quickly though!
Upgrade the wheels/tyres is an investment as it'll be carried over too I guess.
I did that with the Ultegra wheels - bought them for the Ally Orbea, when I bought the Lapierre I swapped wheels and kept the Ultegras on the Lapierre. I noticed the difference between wheels, but I reckon the difference between crap OE and decent aftermarket, high-TPI, nice compound tyres had a bigger effect (for less expense).
Andyhilton- just remembered riding your ribble sportive with 400 £ carbon wheels. I didnt want to comeback. What wheels were those??
Oh, and been doing at least 100 miles a week every week since June 2013, split between Lapierre and a commuter/winter bike. Winter bike is on second set of pads but neither wheels (Ultegras on Lapierre, Aksiums on winter bike) show any measurable wear.
Good going! Wish I could say the same.
Hijack/since everyone is talking about nice road wheels, I have a set of [url= http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/sp/road-track-bike/Zonda-Black-Clincher-Wheels-Pair/CAMPWHFR505?utm_campaign=Googlebase&utm_medium=organic&utm_source=Googlebase&gclid=CMTd7IPU_MECFY_ItAod2wMA3w ]Campagnolo Zondas[/url] I'm about to put up for sale. I bought them new in June or July, but I'm switching to discs on all my bikes. And don't worry, these haven't got knackered rims 😀 . After £170/hijack.
An old set of rs80s I think. Got some RS81s, Zipp 30s, Zipp 60s and Kysrium Elites knocking about too. Think I may have too many wheels!
Hundred !
😳
(just to show I'm not just a wunundred-bagger, have a look at light-bicycle; they'll build you a set of wheels on disc hubs for about 400 quid)
(You need to make sure you get them laced appropriately for discs, though when I bought mine, their builder was obviously on the case already)
Ok Im on tomhowards lpaned wheels/GP4000's (maybe a placebo) but they seem comfier (softer compound?) And carry momentum better. A fair assumption/observation?
Yes, being light weight supple "race" tyres, that is what they are meant to do. It's more to do with the softer carcass.
Btw, what tubes was he using and what pressures did you run them at?
. A fair assumption/observation?
Yup, I'd say so..
Can you borrow a set of 60mm carbon jobbies too, for testing? Be a completely different feel again.
Btw, what tubes was he using and what pressures did you run them at?
Bog standard Specialized ones, 90ish PSI when I left them.
What Mrblobby said, much higher TPI carcass is more supple, cheap OE tyres are often 60TPI, aren't GP4000S something bonkers like 320TPI? The casing is 'softer' not the actual compound.
AndyH- sell me one of your old un's!
Every days a school day. I wrongly assumed tpi was something to do with puncture protection.
Tpi:
Ultrasport- 85
GT - 185
4000s- 330
Bing!
Update- On I've ordered:
Conti's 25mm Conti GP4000s
Ultegra 6800 wheelset
Thanks Tomhoward for the loan- boy I didn't want to hand them back! Will drop off on Sat as promised. The tyres on yours were the final 'straw' to swaying me.
Cheers guys 🙂
Dibs if for re-sale
If you're getting GP4000 then do it properly and latex tubes too, well worth it.
PITA to get tyres on and off those Ultegra 6800's. Not impossible, just way harder/more fiddly than you'd like if it's cold and wet and need to stick a new tube in to get home.
I've bought the kit to go tubeless, but haven't got around to it yet. Sort of feels like I've thrown good money after bad as the 6800's weren't massively better than the OEM rims on my Giant TCR.
6800's weren't massively better than the OEM rims on my Giant TCR.
Look like a good set of wheels for the money... but then 250 quid is not a lot of money when it comes to nice wheels. You can spend that much on a decent rear hub.
Every days a school day. I wrongly assumed tpi was something to do with puncture protection.
Bear in mind some manufacturers are economical with the truth. Conti's 330 casing will be similar to a 110 casing, as they almost always have 3 plies of material under the tread,a s the threads are at an angle you get crossed plies, hence cross ply tyres (appart form the silly money maxxis radial tyres). Best to judge it relative to the rest of the range i.e. 330 is better than 185, better than 85, but not better than Schwalble 120tpi, and Schwalble 27tpi is probably equivelent to conti 85tpi.
and latex tubes
Which ones? Might as well whilst I'm building the lot.
Hora, I got the Michelin Air Comp ones. They say 23c but I run them with 25c tyres and haven't died yet. Been running them for about 6 months now and yet to puncture one. They can be quite easy to pinch a hole in when fitting the tyre though.
TINAS, how do you even know this stuff?! 🙂
PITA to get tyres on and off those Ultegra 6800's
Can't be any harder than with Conti/FSA Team 30's. I went and bought metal tyre levers after snapping 4 plastic ones.
I also have the powerful paws of a bear- powerful mitts attached to my wrists. After the fun and games with the tyre/rim it felt like my fingers had been peeled back/hands stretched for days.
Which ones? Might as well whilst I'm building the lot.
Latex loses enough pressure overnight (or even over a very long ride) to require topping up, punctures easily, and can't be patched.
Just get lightweight butyl ones, they're as light as latex, feel like latex, but without some of the downsides. Conti supersonic weigh the same as latex tubes at 50-55g, michelin ultralight are about 80g and a bit more reliable, the valves on the contis fall off the tube if you look at them funny with a hand pump as the tubes so thin.
TINAS, how do you even know this stuff?!
I have a huge capacity for really use[s]full[/s][i]less[/i] information.
That particular nugget I think comes from the Schwalble site.
I found lightweight butyl (mostly conti supersonic) to be much more puncture prone than latex. I'd just about given up on lightweight tubes before I tried latex. Much prefer latex. Feels nicer too IMO.
They do require topping up each ride but then I'm a bit fussy about pressures and checked and pumped before each ride anyway.
Maybe I was just unlucky, I just found them an allround PITA, hard to install, and punctured both withing 200miles. Settled on the michelin tubes, they seemed to be the best ballance of reliability/lightweight/feel, the lighter butyl tubes all split at the valve eventualy.
Can't be any harder than with Conti/FSA Team 30's. I went and bought metal tyre levers after snapping 4 plastic ones.
Shimano specifically state to avoid using levers of any description. I assume it's to avoid damaging the rim and preventing sealing with a tubeless setup.
I'll give you hard to install. I've lost one when fitting a tyre (bit of a bugger at 7 quid a pop!)
I used light weight butyl ones for a couple of years (mostly the Conti ones) and found them to be pretty fragile. I've yet to puncture a latex one on GP4000 running at 75/85psi. Reckon being more supple they are more likely to deform over stuff that would puncture light butyl.
Hadn't really considered latex till it was mentioned on here. Tried some back in the day on the MTB and they were rubbish!
I have a 5 year old SL pro which came with the stock wheels. For some reason they seem to be greatly affected by crosswinds, moreso than my cosmiques. Go figure!.
I have swapped them for Zondas and the difference was notable. The front end feels less "squirmy" and planted and the cornering gives much better feedback.
I don't feel the frame to be flexy as others say (I'm more Stannard than Quintana) and compared to my old school Ali Pinarello frame (which is stiffer than a teenager's bedsheets) it feels fine.
It did come with a fair stack height and shortish stem so maybe noodle around with reach and height first.
Nevis- what stock wheels were they? FSA?
Latex loses enough pressure overnight (or even over a very long ride) to require topping up, punctures easily, and can't be patched.
Not really, they lose about 8-10 PSI/night, which means I pump up to about 110 PSI and commute for three days on 25c. Latex tubes are the easiest to patch, just use proper Rema TipTop patches and vulcanising glue and hey presto, the patches will stick like nothing else.
Where they suffer is in installation. They are so flexible that if the tyre bead does not seat perfectly, the tube will squeeze underneath and go bang once ridden - and the ensuing 10 cm slash means another £8 wasted! (well £16 in my case as I've done it twice). In fact I once had a screw hole in a brand new Schwalbe One and the replacement latex tube squeezed through the hole and exploded (how I learned to patch them!).
So if you don't mind pumping them up every three days, are careful with installation, and don't mind the extra rolling noise, they are light and have a sublime tubular-like ride.
I buy Michelin air comp from Decathlon.
?? 😐the extra rolling noise
Quick question (I've got anotherday before the tyres turn up)- The Ultegra 6800. Is there anything better out there for circa £225 thats also 1600gms?)
are you going to service the cup/cones yourself ? 😯
I can build a mountain bike from scratch. Apparentky its tooless?
**** it. What wheels upto £400??
RS80/81 or other??
Superstar Pave 28 are on my shopping list. New school wide road rims and decent weight.
Shimano specifically state to avoid using levers of any description. I assume it's to avoid damaging the rim and preventing sealing with a tubeless setup.
Not sure that's true though I've read it before here. The warning stickers on my 6700 wheels (basically same wheel but 10spd hub) said not to hook levers around spokes, not that they can't be used on the rims.
Quick question (I've got anotherday before the tyres turn up)- The Ultegra 6800. Is there anything better out there for circa £225 thats also 1600gms?)
Stans, a23, archetypes (all about 400g) etc on novatec hubs (mr ride, sokin etc on ebay, about 280g a pair!) all come in well under budget and start arround 1250g depending on spokes. You do have to build them, or pay someone who knows what they're doing with light road wheel builds, i did my own but its not as easy as MTB wheelbuilding.
or just go tubeless!So if you don't mind pumping them up every three days, are careful with installation, and don't mind the extra rolling noise, they are light and have a sublime tubular-like ride.
What wheels upto £400??
If I wanted light wheels to race on I'd probably get some of the Farsports wheels. The wider carbon one like [url= http://www.farsports.com/product/detail.php/id-199.html ]these[/url].
If it was for training and putting in the miles I'd get something like Archetype on whatever Shimano hub in budget. I've got one of the rims to build up at the moment with some DT Swiss Competition spokes. Bit heavier than the ones you were looking at but they'll make a good set of wheels. [url= http://www.wiggle.co.uk/h-plus-son-archetypeultegra-6800-road-wheelset/ ]Prebuilt here[/url]. For the price though the pre-built shimano ones do look pretty darn good.
I'm going for a set of Ksyrium Elite's which can be had for not much over £300 from [url= http://www.4thebike.de/laufraeder/rennrad/aluminium/8756/mavic-ksyrium-elite-s-wts ]here[/url], there getting more stock in a week or so apparently.
Superstar Pave 28 are on my shopping list. New school wide road rims and decent weight.
^^This.
Not sure that's true though I've read it before here. The warning stickers on my 6700 wheels (basically same wheel but 10spd hub) said not to hook levers around spokes, not that they can't be used on the rims.
The quote from the tech doc re tyre levers is:
• The tires should always be installed and removed by hand. Never use tools such as tire levers, as they can damage the seal between the tires and the rims and cause air to leak out from the tires.
Those Pave's do look good. Very very tempting.
which refers to installing tubeless tyres and breaking the airtight seal between rim and tyre, not to damaging the rim itself and preventing it from being used with tubeless tyres in the future. Least that's how I read it.
Hora if the 4000s' are on their way try them first on your existing rims, £400 on winter wheels is a bit silly.
Question- hefting the Ultegra wheelset (without tyres/tubes)- the rear feels heavy. Can the stated figures be out?
Compare to the C50 Dura ace rear wheel with tyre/tube- that feels lighter in the 'heft' test.
Looking at the figures though the Dura ace wheelset is 1670gm's the Ultegra 1650gm's.
Also -why would anyone pay 1k for wheels that are heavier than Ultegra? (I'm missing something here I bet- comfort and stiffness).
The C50's are 50mm deep, much more aero than the usual ~24mm rims.Also -why would anyone pay 1k for wheels that are heavier than Ultegra? (I'm missing something here I bet- comfort and stiffness).
I would have guessed the ultegra front was lighter than the C50? The ligher rim on the rear is probably offset by a heavier hub, DA will have more Ti and alu bits inside whereas there's not much you can do to lighten a front hub.
I wouldn't worry. My ancient and heavier R-550's are only marginaly 'worse' than my <1300g stans wheelset in terms of feel. Shimano wheelsets always punch above (or below?) their weight IME as they spend the money on light rims where it matters to compensate for their heavier hubs.
Got it- why does it feel heavier? will track down some scales 😀
No idea, I'd bet it's in your head, thinking that the beefy looking DA wheels should be heavy, so when they're similar to the spindly ultegra wheels you think they're lighter? The tyre and tube is 250g as a minium, they can't be lighter!
Why do all Hora bike threads make me want to scream*
"arrrrrrghgoddammitjustridetheeffingthinghoraarrrrrgh!!"
I wonder whether you ever actually fully enjoy any of your rides or whether they are all overshadowed by worrying about if thing X could be better/different and make it 0.35% nicer.
I can understand wanting to upgrade and chasing that theoretical perfection, but sometimes I do wonder if some people get lost in the chase.
* a light hearted scream with a smile, not a genuine scream of course 🙂
"arrrrrrghgoddammitjustridetheeffingthinghoraarrrrrgh!!"
TBF That's true for most STW threads 😉
which refers to installing tubeless tyres and breaking the airtight seal between rim and tyre, not to damaging the rim itself and preventing it from being used with tubeless tyres in the future. Least that's how I read it.
Good point. Do the tyre manufacturers make similar warnings?
I wonder whether you ever actually fully enjoy any of your rides or whether they are all overshadowed by worrying about if thing X could be better/different and make it 0.35% nicer.
I doubt many of us on here make impulsive purchases (or possibly less so than others male/females).
We look into the detail, things like colour- when ordering a car or bike. If we are given choice and theres no obvious stand out colour we'll spend time thinking, looking for examples etc for a likeness wont we? Its all good stuff 8)
Just bought some Superstar Volta hubs laced to some Pacenti SL23 rims for £169. Lighter than Shimano and on trend wide rims.
I was tempted by superstar but their email/contact form bounced and my left voicemail wasnt returned. If you are reading this fruit I can send you the form error message report. Doesnt bode well. Anyway I also bought the RS81 C24's but chose to fit the Ultegra wheels
The GP4000's went on with NO levers.
Superstar Pave 28 are on my shopping list. New school wide road rims and decent weight.
i'd be concerned that the weight is a made up number like the mtb rims - which seem like a good buy; until you find out they are 20% heavier than they claim and actually there are lots of similar rims.
@thomthumb that is why I ended up not going for the Pave 28s and bought the Pacenti SL23s.
Also -why would anyone pay 1k for wheels that are heavier than Ultegra? (I'm missing something here I bet- comfort and stiffness).
[s]To match the group set, as I'm an unspeakable bike tart[/s].
Aero innit.
Dont get me wrong I'd have the Dura ace all day long. Sublime is the word. Thats where the money is spent.
@thomthumb that is why I ended up not going for the Pave 28s and bought the Pacenti SL23s.
Same here. Went for the Pacenti SL23 Volta 11p Hub Clearance deal on Superstar. Only £169.99 with Cycling Weekly discount code. Don't know much about the hubs but this is what Superstar wrote on bike radar about them.
Ok here's the deal. The hubs are our 11speed version but we have upgraded them again online with out tesla EVO mountain hubs, so these are the clearance 60 engagement ones. The rims are just the old sticker version.
Surely worth a try at that price. They'll be a good upgrade over my Shimano R501's that came on my Supersix.
You'll find the higher up the shimano tree you go you get rounder wheels ....
Just done 42miles around Sowerby/Calderdale on thrm. Awesome tyres.
pretty sure Superstar use Novatec hubs?
Only problem is anytime anyone buys a superstar component a crow scratches a baby's face and a fairy drowns in a kitten's tears.
besides which, Ultegra matched my groupset.
Latex tubes and sensible pressures?
Latex tubes and sensible pressures?
Bought 2xVittori Latex tubes. They feel very sensual 😯
What do you class as sensible pressures? I've been running 80psi on normal tubes and it doesn't pinch/feels good on my GP4000II's.