look in the (physical not online) shops at what is stocked at a reasonable price point (I'm looking at you Endura) - it's either black, or black with red, or hi-viz yellow. nothing in between. maybe those Heinz baked beans/ Marmite jerseys, or last year's Saxo Bank pajamas but who wants to wear those.
dudes... Cars crash into CARS all the time because they couldn't be or weren't seen. CARS. Huge big tin things with a shiny wheel on each corner. Why would anyone think that a cyclist would be any easier/more difficult to see?
As mentioned above. Compulsory daytime lights for all vehicles soon. BIG vehicles that should be easily visible without lights. Why?
The attitude of "they should see me" is just crazy. If you really feel that way, take your seatbelt off and deactivate your airbags when in your car. I mean, your not going to crash right and everyone should be able to see you right so won't crash into you....
"If you really feel that way, take your seatbelt off and deactivate your airbags when in your car. I mean, your not going to crash right and everyone should be able to see you right so won't crash into you...."
coupled with a big spike in the middle of the wheel - this would go along way to changing drivers attitudes 😉
brakes - i for the record - i have no black, high viz or red tops other than my old club kit - new club has green kit.
some orange , some green , some blue , some white
its not that hard to get - and none of its particularly expensive stuff , most of it is altura , endura or TAL/Cycle jersey.
Im playing devils advocate in that how long before we are getting blamed in court for having the tenacity not to wear hi viz and we are getting all the blame for folks on the road - no punishment for them - its a downward spiral into cyclists being forced off the road.
Needs nipped in the bud soon - and thats exactly what the MCN article talked about.
its not that hard to get - and none of its particularly expensive stuff
I'm just saying that what is available in most city-centre branches of bike shops (Evans, Cycle Surgery - those that cater specifically for those riding on the road/ commuters) tends to be black, red or high-viz stuff from Altura and Endura.
They must be the popular colours as that's what they sell (although we know retail has a habit of telling consumers what they want).
It is interesting to see the views on here, compared to those on the predominantly road forums. On the latter there is a huge amount of opposition to Hi Viz & they are the people who do thousands of miles on the road (often in one day it seems when they are audaxing)
But audax riders have been riding since before the appearance of these new fangled car contraptions!
This was not quite the thread on ninja roadies I was hoping for. Nvm.
Nice bright flashing light for me. Can't hurt.
Never fails to amaze me, the attitude people have to their own safety. Really don't understand the attitude of "car drivers should be able to see a bloke on a bike in broad daylight and if they can't that's their fault"
While technically correct you also might not be around to explain that to them....
On the latter there is a huge amount of opposition to Hi Viz & they are the people who do thousands of miles on the road (often in one day it seems when they are audaxing)
Interestingly enough, I've only got "into" road biking as I'm doing the LEL audax this year (in 4 weeks - gulp!). And all that distance on the road is encouraging me to brighten up.
I'm going to get some severe looks on the start line when i turn up in hi-vis (not to mention running disc brakes and not using a Brooks saddle or Carradice bags).
I'm going to get some severe looks on the start line when i turn up in hi-vis
the Audaxes I've done, people turn up in all sorts of clobber on all different types of machine.
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Seems that the DfT are already blaming us for not wearing Hi Vis!
From a presentation by the DfT at UWE yesterday at...Shifting Gears: Making cycling a policy priority for health and sustainability!
And also for 'getting in the way' !Seems that the DfT are already blaming us for not wearing Hi Vis
From my experience of many years and miles on the road on bike, in cars and HGV's people need to take a little more care at junctions. It seems folks don't look properly they just glance. A quick left and right at a junction and they are on the gas and out without actually having a good look and letting the brain process the information. I don't care how well camouflaged a car or cyclist is if you take the time to have a good look you will see it. A split second is not enough time to see something moving through the shadows.
FWIW I wear black kit on a black bike in the depths of winter with lights front and rear. In the warmer months the best bike comes out and the club kit. No room for lights or hi-viz there.
We gonna propose all cars come in hi viz paint aswell? Pretty sure there is a lot of car on car action out there.
If it's a nice day out why are we the only group who has to think carefully about their wardrobe? My winter jackets tend to be bright coloured, makes sense as it's dark for 4months, but baselayers and Ts are quite often dark, is the onus now on riders to think "is my route going to involve shady areas? and is this top a bit dark for those sections?"
on the predominantly road forums..//..there is a huge amount of opposition to Hi Viz
There's a fine line between suggesting all black isn't a good look in low light and the assumption that cyclists who dress in dark colours are partially to blame if they get hit. So you have to be very careful discussing it.
D0NK - MemberWe gonna propose all cars come in hi viz paint aswell? Pretty sure there is a lot of car on car action out there.
good point, cars come with sidelights, it's often a good idea to turn them on if visibility is a bit iffy.
The human eye detects contrast changes, hence black and white. My club kit has plenty of contrast - blue/white, and I don't bother with fluoro.
However, I do ride day and night with a cateye Rapid 1 USB rechargeable on random flash. This is mounted on a saddle rail mount under the saddle. It's small, light, unobtrusive and looks good. It recharges easily and is really a no brainer for me.
On group rides, just one or two lights make all the difference to daytime visibility. Light technology has advanced so much, I don't see the point not to.
[i]cars come with sidelights, it's often a good idea to turn them on if visibility is a bit iffy.[/i]
or the bleedin foglights as soon as the light dims just a touch becoz it looks kewl... grrrrr.
Re DfT recommending hi-viz is it not like NHS recommending to give up the pies and ale? Everybody *knows* its better but virtually nobody can be arsed... (and I include me in that btw)
FWIW been reading the highway code and its the same for motorcylists too (hi-viz I mean).
I've said it before and I'll say it again, both are at fault.
It is on both parties to make sure you see each other and make your selfs visable.
Side lights are pathetic if its dark enough for them use your headlights.
how long before pedestrians will be recommended to wear [s]hi viz[/s] bright colours near the road ie everytime you leave the house? Kids already are* [img]FWIW been reading the highway code and its the same for motorcylists too (hi-viz I mean).
[/img] someone did a blog entry somewhere comparing slutwalks with Hi viz drives, basically "you went out dressed like that? what did you expect to happen?"
Problem
Car drivers don't look properly
solution
wrap everyone in hi viz
🙄
*alright it was about night time, still a worrying bit of victim blaming on kids I felt
If you have ever come across somebody walking on country road in the dark you'll understand why you need to 'dress to be seen'. This doesn't necessarily mean flashing beacons but you know, something *light*...
I'm inclined to Rscotts point of view: it needs both parties to be responsible.
For vulnerable road users to do otherwise only makes them, you know, more vulnerable.
there's a difference between:
'not looking properly'
and:
'it's actually impossible to see a dark object (even a large one) under the shade of a tree canopy'
like this:
[img] 
[/img]
but worse.
from this link:
[url= http://www.flamesonmytank.co.za/photos/RoadHazrds/shadows.html ]linky[/url]
Problem
Car drivers don't look properly
But of course, that [b][u]is[/u][/b] the problem. The difficulty is: What do you do as an individual given that situation.
There's a fine line between suggesting all black isn't a good look in low light and the assumption that cyclists who dress in dark colours are partially to blame if they get hit. So you have to be very careful discussing it.
I have no problem in saying that cyclist who don't try to make themselves visible in some way (i.e. wearing all black in low light)are partially to blame if they get hit.
The cyclist hasn't taken reasonable steps to protect themselves.
considering the efforts I have gone to with Hi viz and numerous lights and reflectors whilst commuting through several winters and [b]still[/b] had idiots pulling out on me, I do have a problem. The OP [i]seemed[/i] to be talking about a shadowed area on an otherwise normal day, as I said, do we have to consider every step of our route when getting dressed in the morning? "There's a large tree at that junction and the sun will be in that part of the sky at the time I expect to travel through it so a shadow will be likely, so I better go dayglow today."I have no problem in saying that cyclist who don't try to make themselves visible in some way (i.e. wearing all black in low light)are partially to blame if they get hit.
Assuming a car driver has seen you is a sure fire way to get into trouble.
I once saw a motorist do a cheeky drive the wrong way up a one way section of street. At the one way sign was a copper on a horse. If mr motorist can miss that we don't stand a chance.
'it's actually impossible to see a dark object (even a large one) under the shade of a tree canopy'
If any potential road user had stopped at that junction for more than a second the bike would've been more easily visible.
Shouldn't we be teaching people to look properly rather than making Hi Viz stuff less visible due to overuse? Personally I'd rather flouro stuff was kept for use in dangerous locations, working on highways, railways in industrial locations that kind of thing. There's a reason why this type of clothing is becoming known as "urban camoflage".
[i]Shouldn't we be teaching people to look properly[/i]
Good luck with that.
Like helmets, its all down to personal choice.
Can't see that there's really a debate/argument.
Shouldn't we be teaching people to look properly rather than making Hi Viz stuff less visible due to overuse?
We should indeed be teachign people to look properly, but I think that, given this IS a matter of life and death, that belt and braces is appropriate.
Plus, I can easily go out and buy some bright clothing, however I can't re-educate the motoring population on my own.
do we have to consider every step of our route when getting dressed in the morning?
No, obviously not, just don't buy black cycling kit - it's that simple.
or, if you must wear black kit, because it looks cool (and it does look cool), then maybe consider turning your [s]rear[/s] light(s) on...
visibility can be poor, even/especially in bright sunshine.
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What do you do as an individual given that situation.
personal choice yeah go for it, if you want - I dabble myself. Like helmets, probably a good idea but compulsion or liability for not using them makes me unhappy, see my frowny face 🙁given this IS a matter of life and death, that belt and braces is appropriate.
Like helmets, its all down to personal choice.
Can't see that there's really a debate/argument.
There wouldn't be if we all thought like you Dez, trouble is there seems to be a significant number of people who don't want it to be personal choice!
We should indeed be teachign people to look properly, but I think that, given this IS a matter of life and death, that belt and braces is appropriate.Plus, I can easily go out and buy some bright clothing, however I can't re-educate the motoring population on my own.
My worry is that as the belt and braces are used more and more frequently, in more and more situations that aren't necessarily appropriate the buckles become loose, the buttonholes widen and eventually the trousers fall down (if you'll excuse me taking your turn-of-phrase to ridiculous lengths!). Basically, the more people who wear these clothes, the more lights we use the less effective they'll all be, it's an arms race and there has to be a point where someone says "stop, this is silly". It's all a sticking plaster approach without tackling the cause...
