[Closed] Ninja roadies

were you riding at night ?

I generally leave a small rear light on my road bikes in case I get caught out by changes in weather (like yesterday afternoon/evening when it went incredibly gloomy / wet after setting off in half decent weather)

No, I was riding on an overcast morning, along lanes that quite often turn into gloomy tree tunnels.

Clearly I am just over-cautious, and need to MTFU so I can finally get to post a thread about being hit by a car at a junction.....

surely if a car driver cant see a huge fella on a bike during the day then its due to driving without due care etc. Unless its dark i dont ride without lights on, its the car drivers job to be aware of obstacles. I'm sure there's been many people taken out who have had lights on, so the idea of using lights during the day is posssibly not a concept that works

I'm riding in stealthy colors on the road but having driven on a sunny day in and out of tree's, I'm thinking that I need to get something a bit more colorful. It's noticeable how much quicker you can spot folk wearing hi-viz regardless of how alert you might think you are. So it leaves me wondering how much safer it could make the roads for me.

It doesn't matter if its driving without due care and attention, if it gets to the stage where that's being looked at its probably too late for the cyclist. Better it doesn't get to that.

Flashing rear lights last for ages, I use mine a lot of the time. If I'm on a busy road, certainly in dull conditions, low sunlight or even very bright sunlight I'll turn it on. The front goes on too if conditions make me in any way difficult to see.

Don't want someone to be checking out the scenery to hit me and a flashing light can make the difference between catching their attention and not. There's reasons why a lot of motorbikes run with lights on at all times...

The only thing that isn't black when I'm out riding is my bike and to be honest even that's olive green.

Helmet, jacket, tops, shorts, socks and shoes are all black.

As long as it's day light and not too dull car drivers should be able to see you.

If it's dark, very dull, foggy or misty, I do ride with front and rear lights and also have a hi-viz cover for my rucksack.

The only near misses I've had with cars have been in the early hours of the morning even with my lights and hi-viz rucksack cover. Drivers just aren't expecting to see a push bike on the road at 3am and get a bit of a fright.

All bikes these days have the headlight on at start-up,don't they?

Does anyone know if motorcycle headlamp modulators are legal during the day in the u.k.?

"There's reasons why a lot of motorbikes run with lights on at all times... "

very good but there was an article in one of the motorbike papers how running with their lights on is doing more damage than good as it make the drivers less alert to those that are not - and if lights on is the norm , how long till they become acclimatised to that and start not even noticing that - and they drivers start blaming the motorcyclists for not having their lights on.

slippy slope.

FWIW the only time ive been hit wouldnt have mattered if i had a neon sign above my head saying cyclist - stop .... the driver simply didnt look in my direction before pulling into my path. - had high vis on , several flashign and solid lights pointing forward , spoke reflectors , reflective strip all over bike , mudguards. , f + r reflectors etc etc .....

I find that on Sundays there are less idiots about until about 12:00 so tend not to bother with lights but never dress in stealth.

On my commute I always have flashing lights front and back due to the amount of blind tossers about. It makes a difference. People tell me then my lights are on.

I had a similar thought whilst riding out the Tarland road this morning when a ninja clad guy passed in the opposite direction. Granted I had my shades on but I didn't really notice him straight away....

Didn't have any lights on but my top was half white... And my oakleys!

I have also noticed its a lot more common for people to ride with (flashing) list during the day. I just put it down to be people being ultra careful (or maybe they'd had a scare previously and decided it was the best course of action). Never felt the need to tell them it was on either though.

I always wear bright colours & use flashing rear light on the roadbike.
I understand if someone's not looking they'll knock you off anyway,but if they're glancing & bright clothing or the light catches their attention then surely it makes things safer?

tbh i think road positioning(and choosing the roads you ride on carefully) has more impact on visibility than the clothes you wear.

im not saying that hi-viz is necessary but to go out all in black and just think that all car drivers "should" see you is daft.

is it really worth it? imagine being on the ground after being taken out and seeming confused.."but he/she should have seen me.."

dont forget that not all drivers are cyclists so dont look out atall for us (not excusing it..)

you can choose the roads all you like, but as soon as you have a car on that carefully selected road, you dont have the same control over your situation..

Rode up from Llandegla to the Pondarosa before, bought a brew and had a little rest.

While sitting a Motorbike rider asked was it me with the flashing light on my bike, said yes and he thanked me as he could then see me before hitting the corner.

A red flashing light works a treat! Even high viz is useless against a backdrop of young beech leaves.
As for wearing black? Tuats, the lot of them.

wearing full black on a bright day in sunlight is fine. You ride under some overhanging trees in full shade and you might as well be wearing an invisibilty cloak.
Drivers with dark sunglasses are not going to be able to see you, no profile , no sillouette. Maybe once the pupils dilate ,but more often than not the car will pop back out into sunshine again before that happens.
I was thinking even a low power flashing white light led on the back might catch peoples eyes , might be illegal?, cant imagine you would ever got stopped ....let alone fined

There's reasons why a lot of motorbikes run with lights on at all times

well, they tend to be going 5 times the speed of a road bike.

and, ever see cars overtaking Motorbikes? not really IME, so I would suggest you're comparing apples with oranges.

so the idea of using lights during the day is posssibly not a concept that works

The decent rear lights show up well lots used them on the 25 I rode this morning

There's reasons why a lot of motorbikes run with lights on at all times

because its been compulsory for manufacturers to build bikes like this for >5 years? Daytime running lights are about to be compulsory for cars too.

The only danger of using hi-viz/lights etc is complacency assuming they must have seen you.

I think because you're so hyper-alert to your surroundings with the world passing by at a sedate pace, and all of your senses working voraciously, many people just don't realise how well they blend into the background.

When you can see and sense so well, it's easy to assume that every one else can do the same. But it's also easy to forget that the traffic is travelling 4 or 5 times faster than you. Or that half of those drivers are sitting behind a dirty, grease smeared, sheet of glass. And some, a dirty, smeared, steamed up sheet of glass without an adequate set of working wipers. Visibility may be perfect for you, but not for the guy travelling 70mph, squinting to see the cars in front, scoffing a cheeseburger...

Personally I use at least a rear light on all but the brightest of days.

The driver might be in the wrong, but that won't help you when you're spread across the road in bits.

But black is slimming.

I use flashing rear light during daylight - the loss of detail on sections of road before you enter a dark tree tunnel on a bright day with the sun on your dashboard reflecting on the windscreen is scary

I tend to use a flashing front too, just because it's there, but I'm only really scared of being hit from behind by a car I haven't seen

Many drivers need [u]all[/u] the help they can get as they don't seem to look any appreciable distance ahead of the bumper and wouldn't have spotted a biker already in the shade

Black is Flattening. I I II mean flattering.

The only car/bicycle collision I've been involved in I was wearing a full hi-viz waterproof jacket and white helmet. I can therefore definitely conclude that darker colours are safer.

As long as it's day light and not too dull car drivers should be able to see you.

Tarmac is black, in anything but clear daylight on clear roads, without tress, hedges is black slightly noticeable.

Should be able to see you & noticing you two different things I'd say.

 

I'd rather they noticed me from 10 yards further back. Gives them another couple of seconds to get ready for the punishment pass.

I have the most flashingest and eye burningly brightest rear lights I can find on the back of my road bikes. Then, just to make sure they are seen, I angle them slightly up and towards the centre of the road.

I really don't care how much distress and discomfort it causes car, van and lorry drivers, my intention is to be seen.

I was convinced that flashing lights work, when on a long stretch of A road early one morning while driving to work, I was able to spot a cyclist the best part of half a mile ahead. If that's not enough time for a driver to see me, then I'm dead meat, regardless of what I do.

As for clothes, I have come to the conclusion that my riding gear is neither dark enough, nor bright enough for me to consider myself a 'serious' roadie!

I've got decent flashing lights on my bike. They throw out a poweful beam and are really bright in the dark. In normal daylight I can't tell if they are on or not.

What I don't understand is why red rear reflectors seem so unfashionable. (and as far as i know they are still a legal requirement).

In certain circumsatances they work a lot better than LEDS as they are very efficient at throwing a cars headlights back towards the drivers eyes.

I have the most flashingest and eye burningly brightest rear lights I can find on the back of my road bikes. Then, just to make sure they are seen, I angle them slightly up and towards the centre of the road.
I really don't care how much distress and discomfort it causes car, van and lorry drivers, my intention is to be seen.

I was convinced that flashing lights work, when on a long stretch of A road early one morning while driving to work, I was able to spot a cyclist the best part of half a mile ahead. If that's not enough time for a driver to see me, then I'm dead meat, regardless of what I do.

its pretty irrelevant what we do, its still down to the motorised party to avoid us -- instead of an air bag, a spikked missile might concentrate the mind....the risk compensation that making cars 'safer' works against others , cocooned in their nest, oblivious to others dangers....

I've noticed this all black trend and it seems to be more the older roadie* doing it, conservative dress sense not doing them any favours?

*Actually maybe not even a proper roadie, just someone who has hit mid life crisis age and spent life savings on a carbon road bike

Fine in daylight, counterproductive in the dark, IMO (as a driver)

If it gets me seen and slows the approaching vehicle down, then it has done the job, day or night.

As for the half a mile thing, I have a LED light, not a laboratory grade laser.

Hi-vis or at least bright coloured jersey/jacket for me on the road bike every time, especially when riding solo.

As has been pointed out, car drivers [i]should[/i] see you, but it's no bad thing to help them.

If its a bit dull, i'll turn lights on too as they're permanantly mounted on the bike (Exposure Revo/Flare). The Revo is bright enough for 50mph descent in the pitch dark, so ought to be spotted by drivers...

There's reasons why a lot of motorbikes run with lights on at all times...

My motorbike lights can't actually be turned off. But I shall smash them immediately, as it's up to other people to see me!

Can I just point out that the safest place in the world to ride is the Netherlands & I'm sure we have all seen pictures of all the cyclists there wearing Hi Viz

Can I just point out that the safest place in the world to ride is the Nerherlands & I'm sure we have all seen pictures of all the cyclist there wearing Hi Viz

Sadly this is not the case here. What's needed is better road awareness for all road users, but I don't think re-education is going to help existing road users, and there're too many with bad habits that will be passed down to new road users.

The only thing i can think of is to make an example of bad-driving, with longer/more bans, bigger fines and longer prison sentances for those guilty, and publicise them more. That [i]might[/i]go some way towards it as a deterrent.

When I was about 18, I don't know if I'd even passed my driving test, I cycled up to a small flat roundabout on a bright sunny day. The roundabout had a small tree on it. No cars in sight, plenty of visibility, so I didn't brake and prepared to roll through the roundabout. Only the second time I looked up a car had materialised on the roundabout. I braked in time and there was no near miss, but the fact I hadn't seen it at all shocked me and taught me a major lesson. Had I pulled out I'd have been flattened.

The car was dark grey and had been in the shadow of the tree when I'd looked. I'd been out in the sunshine so my eyes were adjusted to that, and the tree's shadow was like a black hole to my eyes. It's not that I wasn't watching, it's that I had looked, and just not seen it.

So - don't wear dark colours on the road bike, even in sunshine. ESPEICALLY in sunshine, I think. If you really want to be noiticed, wear a colour that's not part of the normal roadside landscape - like red, maybe yellow, blue, or hi viz.

clown outfit maybe ? 😯

the difference in holland is segrigation of road users.

the only place they tend to mix is in low speed urban enviroments.

imnotverygood - Member

Can I just point out that the safest place in the world to ride is the Netherlands...

i've just had a look on google-maps (not very scientific i know, but...),

the roads in the Netherlands look a lot straighter than roads in the uk, which has got to help cars overtaking cyclists, it's probably a lot easier to deal with the over-whelming stress of slowing down for a few seconds, if you can see an over-taking opportunity immediately ahead.

oh, and i always use a rear light in daytime.

if it's sunny: the darkness under a shady tree can appear total - especially to an observer out in the sunshine, wearing shades.

if it's foggy: obviously.

if it's rainy: obviously.

There's a certain numbers of drivers that hate cyclists - whatever you do you will never change their attitudes. However, I would suggest that the vast majority of drivers that are involved in accidents or near misses with bikes do not start their days thinking how much fun it would be to knock a cyclist down. People make mistakes - wear bright clothes and use lights, give the majority of drivers the best opportunity to make less mistakes.

the other thing is in england you seem to have a penchant for twisty roads with high hedges on either side - doesnt matter what you wear - one you go round that corner your invisible.

coupled with drivers that do no expect to meet traffic moving slower than them

its a disaster waiting to happen

this is what i mean about choosing roads carefully.

look in the (physical not online) shops at what is stocked at a reasonable price point (I'm looking at you Endura) - it's either black, or black with red, or hi-viz yellow. nothing in between. maybe those Heinz baked beans/ Marmite jerseys, or last year's Saxo Bank pajamas but who wants to wear those.

dudes... Cars crash into CARS all the time because they couldn't be or weren't seen. CARS. Huge big tin things with a shiny wheel on each corner. Why would anyone think that a cyclist would be any easier/more difficult to see?

As mentioned above. Compulsory daytime lights for all vehicles soon. BIG vehicles that should be easily visible without lights. Why?

The attitude of "they should see me" is just crazy. If you really feel that way, take your seatbelt off and deactivate your airbags when in your car. I mean, your not going to crash right and everyone should be able to see you right so won't crash into you....

"If you really feel that way, take your seatbelt off and deactivate your airbags when in your car. I mean, your not going to crash right and everyone should be able to see you right so won't crash into you...."

coupled with a big spike in the middle of the wheel - this would go along way to changing drivers attitudes 😉

brakes - i for the record - i have no black, high viz or red tops other than my old club kit - new club has green kit.

some orange , some green , some blue , some white

its not that hard to get - and none of its particularly expensive stuff , most of it is altura , endura or TAL/Cycle jersey.

Im playing devils advocate in that how long before we are getting blamed in court for having the tenacity not to wear hi viz and we are getting all the blame for folks on the road - no punishment for them - its a downward spiral into cyclists being forced off the road.

Needs nipped in the bud soon - and thats exactly what the MCN article talked about.

its not that hard to get - and none of its particularly expensive stuff

I'm just saying that what is available in most city-centre branches of bike shops (Evans, Cycle Surgery - those that cater specifically for those riding on the road/ commuters) tends to be black, red or high-viz stuff from Altura and Endura.
They must be the popular colours as that's what they sell (although we know retail has a habit of telling consumers what they want).

It is interesting to see the views on here, compared to those on the predominantly road forums. On the latter there is a huge amount of opposition to Hi Viz & they are the people who do thousands of miles on the road (often in one day it seems when they are audaxing)

But audax riders have been riding since before the appearance of these new fangled car contraptions!

This was not quite the thread on ninja roadies I was hoping for. Nvm.

Nice bright flashing light for me. Can't hurt.

Never fails to amaze me, the attitude people have to their own safety. Really don't understand the attitude of "car drivers should be able to see a bloke on a bike in broad daylight and if they can't that's their fault"

While technically correct you also might not be around to explain that to them....

On the latter there is a huge amount of opposition to Hi Viz & they are the people who do thousands of miles on the road (often in one day it seems when they are audaxing)

Interestingly enough, I've only got "into" road biking as I'm doing the LEL audax this year (in 4 weeks - gulp!). And all that distance on the road is encouraging me to brighten up.

I'm going to get some severe looks on the start line when i turn up in hi-vis (not to mention running disc brakes and not using a Brooks saddle or Carradice bags).

I'm going to get some severe looks on the start line when i turn up in hi-vis

the Audaxes I've done, people turn up in all sorts of clobber on all different types of machine.

[img] :large[/img]

Seems that the DfT are already blaming us for not wearing Hi Vis!

From a presentation by the DfT at UWE yesterday at...Shifting Gears: Making cycling a policy priority for health and sustainability!

Seems that the DfT are already blaming us for not wearing Hi Vis

From my experience of many years and miles on the road on bike, in cars and HGV's people need to take a little more care at junctions. It seems folks don't look properly they just glance. A quick left and right at a junction and they are on the gas and out without actually having a good look and letting the brain process the information. I don't care how well camouflaged a car or cyclist is if you take the time to have a good look you will see it. A split second is not enough time to see something moving through the shadows.

FWIW I wear black kit on a black bike in the depths of winter with lights front and rear. In the warmer months the best bike comes out and the club kit. No room for lights or hi-viz there.

We gonna propose all cars come in hi viz paint aswell? Pretty sure there is a lot of car on car action out there.

If it's a nice day out why are we the only group who has to think carefully about their wardrobe? My winter jackets tend to be bright coloured, makes sense as it's dark for 4months, but baselayers and Ts are quite often dark, is the onus now on riders to think "is my route going to involve shady areas? and is this top a bit dark for those sections?"

on the predominantly road forums..//..there is a huge amount of opposition to Hi Viz

There's a fine line between suggesting all black isn't a good look in low light and the assumption that cyclists who dress in dark colours are partially to blame if they get hit. So you have to be very careful discussing it.

D0NK - Member

We gonna propose all cars come in hi viz paint aswell? Pretty sure there is a lot of car on car action out there.

good point, cars come with sidelights, it's often a good idea to turn them on if visibility is a bit iffy.

The human eye detects contrast changes, hence black and white. My club kit has plenty of contrast - blue/white, and I don't bother with fluoro.

However, I do ride day and night with a cateye Rapid 1 USB rechargeable on random flash. This is mounted on a saddle rail mount under the saddle. It's small, light, unobtrusive and looks good. It recharges easily and is really a no brainer for me.

On group rides, just one or two lights make all the difference to daytime visibility. Light technology has advanced so much, I don't see the point not to.

[i]cars come with sidelights, it's often a good idea to turn them on if visibility is a bit iffy.[/i]

or the bleedin foglights as soon as the light dims just a touch becoz it looks kewl... grrrrr.

Re DfT recommending hi-viz is it not like NHS recommending to give up the pies and ale? Everybody *knows* its better but virtually nobody can be arsed... (and I include me in that btw)

FWIW been reading the highway code and its the same for motorcylists too (hi-viz I mean).

I've said it before and I'll say it again, both are at fault.

It is on both parties to make sure you see each other and make your selfs visable.

Side lights are pathetic if its dark enough for them use your headlights.

FWIW been reading the highway code and its the same for motorcylists too (hi-viz I mean).

Problem
Car drivers don't look properly
solution
wrap everyone in hi viz
🙄

*alright it was about night time, still a worrying bit of victim blaming on kids I felt

If you have ever come across somebody walking on country road in the dark you'll understand why you need to 'dress to be seen'. This doesn't necessarily mean flashing beacons but you know, something *light*...

I'm inclined to Rscotts point of view: it needs both parties to be responsible.

For vulnerable road users to do otherwise only makes them, you know, more vulnerable.

there's a difference between:

'not looking properly'

and:

'it's actually impossible to see a dark object (even a large one) under the shade of a tree canopy'

like this:

[img] [/img]

but worse.

from this link:

[url= http://www.flamesonmytank.co.za/photos/RoadHazrds/shadows.html ]linky[/url]

Problem
Car drivers don't look properly

But of course, that [b][u]is[/u][/b] the problem. The difficulty is: What do you do as an individual given that situation.

There's a fine line between suggesting all black isn't a good look in low light and the assumption that cyclists who dress in dark colours are partially to blame if they get hit. So you have to be very careful discussing it.

I have no problem in saying that cyclist who don't try to make themselves visible in some way (i.e. wearing all black in low light)are partially to blame if they get hit.

The cyclist hasn't taken reasonable steps to protect themselves.

I have no problem in saying that cyclist who don't try to make themselves visible in some way (i.e. wearing all black in low light)are partially to blame if they get hit.

Assuming a car driver has seen you is a sure fire way to get into trouble.
I once saw a motorist do a cheeky drive the wrong way up a one way section of street. At the one way sign was a copper on a horse. If mr motorist can miss that we don't stand a chance.

'it's actually impossible to see a dark object (even a large one) under the shade of a tree canopy'

If any potential road user had stopped at that junction for more than a second the bike would've been more easily visible.

Shouldn't we be teaching people to look properly rather than making Hi Viz stuff less visible due to overuse? Personally I'd rather flouro stuff was kept for use in dangerous locations, working on highways, railways in industrial locations that kind of thing. There's a reason why this type of clothing is becoming known as "urban camoflage".

[i]Shouldn't we be teaching people to look properly[/i]

Good luck with that.

Like helmets, its all down to personal choice.
Can't see that there's really a debate/argument.

Shouldn't we be teaching people to look properly rather than making Hi Viz stuff less visible due to overuse?

We should indeed be teachign people to look properly, but I think that, given this IS a matter of life and death, that belt and braces is appropriate.

Plus, I can easily go out and buy some bright clothing, however I can't re-educate the motoring population on my own.

do we have to consider every step of our route when getting dressed in the morning?

No, obviously not, just don't buy black cycling kit - it's that simple.

or, if you must wear black kit, because it looks cool (and it does look cool), then maybe consider turning your [s]rear[/s] light(s) on...

visibility can be poor, even/especially in bright sunshine.

[img] [/img]

What do you do as an individual given that situation.

given this IS a matter of life and death, that belt and braces is appropriate.

Like helmets, its all down to personal choice.
Can't see that there's really a debate/argument.

There wouldn't be if we all thought like you Dez, trouble is there seems to be a significant number of people who don't want it to be personal choice!

We should indeed be teachign people to look properly, but I think that, given this IS a matter of life and death, that belt and braces is appropriate.

Plus, I can easily go out and buy some bright clothing, however I can't re-educate the motoring population on my own.

My worry is that as the belt and braces are used more and more frequently, in more and more situations that aren't necessarily appropriate the buckles become loose, the buttonholes widen and eventually the trousers fall down (if you'll excuse me taking your turn-of-phrase to ridiculous lengths!). Basically, the more people who wear these clothes, the more lights we use the less effective they'll all be, it's an arms race and there has to be a point where someone says "stop, this is silly". It's all a sticking plaster approach without tackling the cause...