[Closed] new Shand Oykel - in carbon!

Ben, can't see the pic on my work computer but guessing its a cro-mega?

I nearly mentioned Alpinestars in my original post knowing someone else probably would, but weren't both the stays elevated on that so not quite the same? 😉

Edit: I also really wanted one of those!

I know, but there's a difference between spouting shite and shouting spite.

For the love of god, stay out of the politic threads infecting the forum. It'll bring a tear to your eye.

Back to the bikes. They look nice, maybe adjust the wording a little bit on the product page, and possibly disregard everything I have said as I am just a keyboard warrior with no experience of making, selling, and given it's STW, possibly riding bikes.

*wheelspins off in Clio*

I've read this thread and get the feeling that a lot of you are just trying to bully the guy. He's come on here and given his thoughts, explained his position etc.
What do you think it will achieve by repeating the same comments over and over?
What will make you happy?
Are you happy that you could have potentially ruined the sales of this bike with all this negativity?

Some of you come across as complete tosspots with your opinions on how he should run his business and marketing. I bet you wouldn't be so rude if you met him in person. If you're so wonderful and knowledgeable set up your own bike company and try to be successful.

It's just a new bike for God's sake, it really isn't that important. You either like it or you don't.

This is my exact thoughts as well. Some folk on here really need to get a grip.

Brand devaluation, absolutely happens. In Shands case, I think before the Oykel came along, it was incredibly easy to work out what they were all about, and more importantly what you would be getting if you bought one. Now that perception is a bit fuzzy. If I buy a Stoater, am I really getting a UK designed, UK made, boutique frame, which my heart desires over my head. Or am I getting something masquerading as such.

The fact this tread is now in page 4 suggests that the lust for the Shand brand is out there, people feel an ownership in such cases. And sometimes it feels like a brand has betrayed what some think it should be. Personally, if they had to up financial solidity, I would have preferred them to have offered less "perfect" steel frames for a lower price, than straying into carbon imports. But I'm just one potential customer, I'm sure there are 100s out there who think the opposite.

Much better to be talked about on a forum, than for nobody to notice what your up to.

Shand make lovely lovely bikes, but so do many many other companies. For the record, deep down, my heart still desires that Rohloff Stoater I've been saving for, more than any other bike I've seen, over and above what my head says!

Good work sir. Is that one yours? I may ask to borrow it.

I presume Trek aren't bothered about this rip off of their design?

It's a funny one..

When Alpkit posted a trade event photo, there was what appeared to be a loop bar copy. Everyone went a bit mad.. [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/alpkit-jones-bar-copy ]HERE[/url]

When Shand sell a China frame that copied the Trek, no one cares about that. What's the ethics here? Is it left to slide because Trek are big boys and can take a hit?

Probably made in the same factory/province as trek

Thing about all this is... branding/brand identity can be a pretty complex and irrational thing. I'm still very tied to Cotic, frinstance, even now I don't own any 😆 And totally no attachment to Trek even though my main bike is a Remedy and it's probably the best bike I've ever ridden. Personally, the carbon frame doesn't fit with my idea of what Shand do in the slightest; but on the other hand, I'm just some dude.

I daresay that for some people the most important thing about owning a Shand, is exclusivity and being all artisan and that. That doesn't mean it's important to Shand, it means it's important to those owners, it's the deal they've made in their head. It's the same thing that made an Orange G3 taiwanese hardtail "worth" more than a far superior Carrera

But owners don't own the brand. This isn't, say, Muddy Fox! Everything Shand did, they still do. Now they do another thing too. If the intangible aura was the most important thing to an owner then yes they are likely to be annoyed but that's just a thing that happens to you, if you're spending hundreds of quid based on something so wooly.

I hope it's a good move for Shand- I'd assume it'll widen their appeal far more than it narrows it.

Really?

[quote=cokie ]It's a funny one..
When Alpkit posted a trade event photo, there was what appeared to be a loop bar copy. Everyone went a bit mad.. HERE
When Shand sell a China frame that copied the Trek, no one cares about that. What's the ethics here? Is it left to slide because Trek are big boys and can take a hit?

company A known for selling good value, lower quality kit, selling a cheaper version of a premium product.

company B dressing up a catalogue frame and trying to sell at a premium.

Love a Stoater.
This bike doesn't make me want one any less.

And if this a 'similar' design to the Trek/whatever, built with the same materials, by the same people, I can't see the issue.
Didn't it get rave reviews and a multipage frothathon on here?

Only heard very good things about Shand's customer service.

Same with Paul Hewitt, who does a similar thing to almost universal acclaim.
He'll hand build you a beautiful frame, but also sells excellent off the peg frames sold by other people.
They're great frames and I've never heard anyone say they devalue his skills or brand.

There are so many hurdles and pitfalls for the discerning bike buyer to negotiate. I was lined up to purchase 1,000 Specializeds recently but they tortured a cafe. I like cafes so that put me off. Prior to that there was the Lance thing - i was about to pull the button on 1,000 Lances - but he murdered every cyclist who ever lived, and now this? No one will be impressed with my buying skills and refined executive taste if i turn up on 1,000 Shands that are just bikes. So i'll be looking to spend my considerable wealth elsewhere. Shame on you Mr Shand.

I just think it is lazy and doesn't really fit the brand. Why not use the in house geometry expertise to get something unique built overseas?

But then I'm never going to buy a Shand because I can't stand their cable routing, so you discount my view.

totally no attachment to Trek even though my main bike is a Remedy and it's probably the best bike I've ever ridden.

It's funny I thought like this till I got my Trek which is amazing and now at least on the mtb side I pay quite a lot of attention to what the brand is doing.

What is a Shand?

For what it's worth I think Treks original designed frames are all alloy, I might be wrong though

What's the real fear of the brand being 'devalued' though? Is it that some people are worried that their 'exclusive' branded product will somehow seem less exclusive? Why is that an issue? Don't you want a UK company to do well and expand?

Treks original designed frames are all alloy

They are because it's supposed to be hard riding 'affordable' bike, right now a full Trek Stache would cost the same as the Shand F&F.

On the bright side, I've been looking at buying one of these from China and now have some good pics to look at and a degree of confidence that the geometry, etc is ok. Thanks Shand 🙂

(FWIW, yes, those in the know will obviously recognise the Oykel as the black sheep of the family but I can't see how it devalues any other models. YMMV)

Trek's all rigid Stache 5 is an alu frame, CF tapered HT forks

[img] http://trek.scene7.com/is/image/TrekBicycleProducts/2019000_2016_A_1_Stache_5?wid=680&hei=680&fmt=png8-alpha&qlt=80,1&op_usm=0,0,0,0&iccEmbed=0&cache=on,on&extend=0,0,0,450&origin=0,0 [/img]

My Stache 5 is probably the most fun bike I've ever ridden.

The WCB-M-078 is shorter, taller, slightly slacker HTA, steeper STA, less BB drop, longer wheelbase, longer HT, slightly longer CS compared to the Stache and as others have said Trek is Alu so it isn't a Trek carbon copy...

Reported because chainstay.

Be more interesting when the carbon Stache is released.

I've been vaguely considering the Workswell etc versions of this frame, versus a Stache, interesting that Shand have 'endorsed' this version at least, how does the geometry compare to their steel MTBs?

And because some people were comparing the concept of Shand doing an open mould frame to On-One, it might intrigue people to be reminded of the thread on here showing On-One's 'prototype' of basically this frame at one of the bike shows last year:

[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/on-one-carbon-raised-stay-tyre-prototype ]http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/on-one-carbon-raised-stay-tyre-prototype[/url]

(There are some small differences, the on-one version is from a different open mould version of the same thing, they were still claiming it was a prototype!)

Meanwhile back in 2011....

[img] [/img]

Maybe I could complain to Trek about using E-stays and a bent seat tube to achieve a 29er with big tyres and ultra short chainstays? And complain to Shand about using the same colour?

Or maybe we just agree that bikes are good and people can make / sell / buy / ride /whatever they like.

You did beat them, but only just, first prototype of what is now the stache was [url= http://www.tetongravity.com/story/bike/the-trek-stache-2015s-most-fun-mountain-bike ]early 2012[/url]

Or maybe we just agree that bikes are good and people can make / sell / buy / ride /whatever they like

Nope (yes really)

How short did you get the chain stays on yours?

Has the website wording been changed now to confirm it is a Chinese frame?

[i]the thread on here showing On-One's 'prototype' of basically this frame at one of the bike shows last year[/i]

I can see the OP on that thread claiming it as a prototype but did on-one?

wwaswas - second pic down, it has a massive 'prototype' sticker on the side of the top tube! (It's black on black so a bit tricky to see...)

I remember reading about a road bike company who used open moulds. They reasoned that they were involved in the lay up process and specified such, there were a few other factors that they could influence, I'd guess cable routing, finish and QC as well as actual material.

Has the website wording been changed now to confirm it is a Chinese frame?

ah, yes, was on phone earlier.

There's a difference between making use of an open mould and buying existing stuff in bulk and the response hints at the latter

I'm done. I wish Shand all the best for the future and hope he carries on making those lovely steel frames. For what it's worth, he's a great chap that worked on my ideas with great communication.

I think now that STW have all had an opportunity to share our thoughts/observations, I, for one, would like to ask the mods to delete this thread. This has been an interesting conversation, but I wouldn't like to think that the existence of our ramblings in the ether is impacting Shand's sales.

That's a tricky one, batfink. I appreciate what it may be doing to Shand's bottom line, but you can't just go round deleting threads that discuss these sort of things.

Lots of boutique brands do this, De Rosa for one sell a frame that's the same as a Ribble and charge an extra whack of money for the privilege. Can't say I begrudge them doing it, it's a nice bike, they make it look better and people who are De Rosa fans are happy to add it to their line up.

That's a tricky one, batfink. I appreciate what it may be doing to Shand's bottom line, but you can't just go round deleting threads that discuss these sort of things.

Why not? S'up to the boss isn't it? It's not a democracy 🙂 (thank god)

It just seems like, justifiably, there's a lot of love for shand on here.... And I worry that all the talk of brand damage on this thread might turn into a self fulfilling prophesy. I think we all admire shand's (original) business model, but being a small business I worry that they might be disproportionately impacted by the existence of this tread - and I don't think anyone on here would want that. This latest move might succeed, or it might fail.... But it should do so on its merits - not because the ramblings of a bunch of muppets like us pop up when anyone types the name of their new bike into the Google.

I agree with batfink. I started the thread as it looked a really nice and interesting bike, and didn't realise the knowledge of the STW would lead to a bit of a rough ride for Shand.

Absolutely no point in deleting the thread - it would just look silly.
As soon as someone buys one and puts up a 'new bike' thread, it would all be covered again.
If anything written was abusive or a lie that would be different.

batfink - Member

A small business I worry that they might be disproportionately impacted by the existence of this tread - and I don't think anyone on here would want that. This latest move might succeed, or it might fail.... But it should do so on its merits

So on its merits, but not on a discussion about those merits?

I agree with batfink. I started the thread as it looked a really nice and interesting bike, and didn't realise the knowledge of the STW would lead to a bit of a rough ride for Shand.

So only positive threads allowed?

But as the OP, you could always message the mods and see if they'll delete it.

Might cause a Streisand effect, tho.

I'm not convinced this thread would do as much damage as any of you suggest. If I was looking for bike, and stumbled across it, I would read, digest and then decide if I wanted to buy from Shand or not. Much like I would do from looking at the Shand website. The thread if anything shows how many people love the Shand offering so much they're willing to talk endlessly about it on a web forum.

I'd be way more wary of buying from a brand that didn't feature in any internet chats. Much better to be out there and talked about, even if not all 100% positive, than not talked about at all.

Can you be sure that a Google from someone that hasn't been on STW would yield same search results? And at least, within the thread, is a response from Shand themselves, rather than a set of forum members expressing thoughts and views..