[Closed] new Shand Oykel - in carbon!

I've not commented on this thread yet as to be honest, spanking £1k on any frame be it steel/CF/mass manufactured or hand built in a shed by a man with a beard and a wall full of tools isn't really on the cards (I don't know if Mr Shand has a beard or a wall full of tools, but you know what I mean).
I ummmmed and aaaahed for ages about whether I could justify spending £160 on a Barry White Inbred frame, such is my cycling budget.

But, it's been an interesting thread & a decent, well thought out reply from Mr Shand.
I've just looked at the shand website page for the frame/bike & I suppose the only thing that would get my goat if I spent this much on the frame to later find out that it's in fact an off the shelf frame from China is the fact that some of the wording of the frame description makes it sound like it has been designed by Shand and manufactured overseas. I get the impression that it is the same frame as linked to in the earlier posts available from Chinese frame manufacturers.

Phrases like:

The Oykel is our super-versatile....

.....so our solution is to move that chainstay out of the way altogether!

Working with carbon allows us to move material around in a way we just can’t with steel

The unique dual rear axle dropouts.....

Unique, if you exclude the same frame being sold direct....

We work closely with our Carbon Fibre manufacturing partners in Asia for the production of our carbon frames

This would make me assume it is Shand's frame design being manufactured by a factory in Asia.

Does this line in the 'about' part of the website mean that the frame is in fact Shand's design?:

WHO WE ARE
Shand is a small independent British bicycle company located in Scotland, fabricating hand-built production bikes here in the UK [b]as well as designing[/b] and supplying carbon fibre bikes manufactured by our partners.

Dunno, maybe it's just my perception of it but the wording is such that it sounds like you are getting a product designed by Shand but built in the Far East, when it seems to be an off-the-shelf frame?

And, if I wasn't a STW bod, had bought one of these frames thinking I was getting something a bit special, I'd be pretty pissed if someone wandered up to me at a trail centre, got talking to me about the bike & asked if I was aware it was a generic Asian frame with a nice paint job....because the website doesn't give me that impression.

I am quite surprised by this direction from shand and I can understand the comment of it devaluing the brand tbh but I suppose there must be reason behind the decision. on the other hand I have a stoater and it's ace, best bike ever in fact and this changes nothing about that:)

Stumpy makes some good points. Shame Shand will not be revisiting the thread, as a decent discussion could be had.

In my opinion it has devalued the brand, wouldn't entertain a Shand now.

How do you order from Workswellbikes? Do you have to order a batch? Can you order a sample?

I don't necessarily consider it has devalued the brand (I'd still buy a custom shand if I was able to ride a normal bike) but the way it has been described on the shand website blurb as per what stumpy01 posted above is rather misleading.

It [i]devalues the brand[/i] for the sort of person that doesn't like to see their favourite indy band get successful & famous.

I don't get that theory. If a brand makes something you really like, then what does it matter if they also make something you don't like? Unless you're buying for the kudos of having a niche brand, what does it matter?

I am slightly surprised and perhaps a little worried about the comments regarding devaluing the brand

Riding bikes to me is a passion and I invest money in not only the finished goods of a company but also the people and reasons behind them - certainly not for the kudos, that doesn't ever factor.

A few examples are;
Brooklyn MachineWorks. A little known bike company in Brooklyn NY, run by Doc and Joe making V brakes and 26”/24” hardtails in the late 90’s early 2000’s.
A bit Later monster DH bikes and leading to the Racelink which I bought. Joe, Doc and Ged in the UK where the reasons I bought into Brooklyn – I liked their style of doing stuff, anti factory/anti corporate and the bikes worked.
But then Doc left and then Pharrell Williams publicly bought in, Adidas did a Brooklyn trainer, fixie frames followed, the Racelink stopped being made. Brooklyn was dead to me. Sold to a guy in Norway.

Another odd example is Brant and Ragley. I wouldn’t touch an On-One (because of their image) with a bargepole but I mailed Brant early on and Ragley had promise – a bit of a hardcore image, steel frames, slightly leftfield, and I bought a MK1 Bluepig. Great frame but then it started getting wishy washy, the leftfield was getting diluted and the reggae paint jobs finally killed it for me. Great frame- no interest in keeping it. Replaced with an Evil Sovereign.

S&M bikes in the bmx world are an example of a brand retaining its core values and image? I’d still buy whatever’s the latest S&M frame as much as I bought the Maddog frame frame years ago.

A Shand mood board for me is handbuilt, craftsmanship, attention to detail, clean design, steel, inhouse. But then all of a sudden comes this carbon outsider that sits awkwardly well outside of your core business/image.
As mention before in this thread if Shand did a sideline which clearly stated its intentions of a carbon/catalogue frame then I don’t think it sit as bad – much like Curtis did with their Taiwanese frames (which I quite happily bought-S1 singlespeed).
Just my 2pence worth.

If you buy a bike from ali and you ride it, the forks snap and you end up in hospital and off work and a persistent medical problem you will have little or no chance of compensation from them.

On the other hand if you buy the same/similar frame from shand or on one for example and the same thing happens you will have a valid claim and more than likely get compensation.

On one and shand have to pay for this insurance and have to factor this into the costs.

It is because of this back up that I think the extra couple of hundred quid in the short term is worth it in the long term.

I also think a shand or on one has a better resale value. It's a risk buying a generic carbon frame new, not sure I'd buy a 2nd hand one.

We all have a budget, its a bit like deore vs slx vs xt vs xtr. It all does the same thing but we don't all buy deore.

This will have its place, it's fans and it's haters.

Fair play for shand to reply. That takes some real guts and probably a lot of restraint.

sorted out the cables

This is an interesting thread.

I think people are having trouble reconciling their understanding of Shand's image/business model/philosophy, with this latest move..... and rightly so: it IS completely incongruous with the brand image that they have deliberately propagated. They may have inserted a few qualifiers here and there on their website to justify banging-out off-the-peg Chinese carbon frames with Shand stickers on - but, as Stumpy points out, it all feels rather cynical and crosses a line whereby the consumer might feel like they have been misled.

Obviously it's completely up to Shand what direction they take their company in.... but I think peoples surprise at this decision is understandable.

It devalues the brand for the sort of person that doesn't like to see their favourite indy band get successful & famous.

I hate diluted leftfield,especially if it is both wishy and washy.

It seems like an odd decision to me too. I have two Shands and I bought them in part because of the brand's values - authentic, local etc - which Steven and his team have done a great job of building. So, a Chinese frame like this sits well outside of that. Clearly Shand wants to trade on his brand's recognition and that's fair enough. But I can't help thinking a sub-brand would have been a better idea - not quite the Tesco Value range, more like Essential Waitrose…

But if you're not paying for the brand, what are you paying a premium for?

the QA (very important in my view wrt to Chinese product...), the paint job, the warranty and support.

Plus the fact that Shand has chosen it to sell means that it probably rides pretty well, whereas just ordering a factory frame from China thinking the numbers look right would be very risky.

The "keeping the lights on" comment is very important, I think the only issue here is that some of the description is a bit too flowery, implying more Shand input than is justified.

But then again this is Internet marketing so it has to be made to look good, and most people looking at it would not be performing the intense inspection that this forum is.

A last point as this is getting very long. I am passionate about manufacturing here in the UK. That's one of the biggest reasons I do what I do, I want to make stuff and I want to employ people who want to make stuff. The truth is, it's really hard. Like really, really hard. I want to build a better company for everyone involved at Shand and if that means looking elsewhere for revenue streams to help keep the workshop lights on so we can carry on making stuff, then I'll explore every avenue possible.

Respect.
Manufacturing is dying here so why not use the cause to help sustain it?

I agree that the wording is a little misleading though.

When you manufacture something in the bike industry, it seems to me that you can get a lot of free marketing, fans, word of mouth, loyalty, etc. But in return you also get people thinking that they have some kind of a stake in your business and the ability to take offence at every decision.
Very odd.

That's true, but it's not odd. Brands loyalty is something that most manufacturers strive for - they want customers to identify with their ethos etc. In this case that includes attributes such as: hand crafted, British made, high quality and attention to detail etc. But brand loyalty cuts both ways - if the company does something that customers feel goes against the ethos they've identified with, some adverse response should be expected.

How do you order from Workswellbikes? Do you have to order a batch? Can you order a sample?

No different to ordering Light Bicycle rims for example. Of course you can buy just one. The Chinese "factories" or "manufacturers" producing this stuff are largely just distributors/ resellers so you get in touch, get a Paypal invoice, pay it and the stuff arrives.

If you buy a bike from ali and you ride it, the forks snap and you end up in hospital and off work and a persistent medical problem you will have little or no chance of compensation from them.

So you buy a Shand Chinese frame so you have the ability to sue Shand? Great! There haven't been (m)any(?) reports of these frames failing as far as I am aware, just the frames from the cheaper vendors are rougher around the edges. It's not like Shand didn't previously pay any insurance before either so that doesn't justify the markup. Paying double to be able to sue a small company like this is an odd logic.

I think what this comes down to more is you trust Shand and that is fine. I guess they've done the research for you as to where to buy from and saved you trawling through the massive MTBR thread. It is plausible the convenience is worth £500 to the right person

I also think a shand or on one has a better resale value. It's a risk buying a generic carbon frame new, not sure I'd buy a 2nd hand one.

But it [i]is[/i] a generic carbon frame.

People say, "How can you sell this for such a [s]low[/s] high price?", I say, "because [s]it's[/s] otherwise people will know it's total crap." 🙂

Cycling is all about having fun, even more so for the Shand customer base. His customers buy into the brand,the lifestyle and the bespoke ethos. They hand over their cash to be part of that journey. They/potential customers have every right to get upset & annoyed.

The generic carbon thing has nothing in common with thee above. I feel sorry for the poor sod that pays out the £1,100 based on the bike 'porn' description. They may feel by visiting the site and seeing the steel offerings that they are joining the club with something unique that Shand has put his input into and 'worked closely with', but in reality he places a wholesale order, it comes out a box, get's painted, has some decals applied and is then forwarded on. None of that love and craftsmanship goes into it.

If people wanted generic China stuff then the likes of Shand wouldn't exist in the first place. Leave that to on-one.

If it's about increasing margins and growing the brand, I don't understand why he didn't commission a series of off the peg frames in standard sizes. He'd get the same end result and could probably steal market share from the likes of Cotic.

Weird.

I think it is always a dicey decision engaging with STW if you are a part of the UK bike industry, these threads do normally burn out, but as is often said round here [i]"haters gonna hate"[/i]...

TBH I struggle to see the problem, shand make some lovely frames in the UK, support dwindling UK manufacturing and happen import one product which would be too costly to make here, but which there is a market for, and people feel justified in rubbishing the whole brand? Saying stuff like:

In my opinion it has devalued the brand, wouldn't entertain a Shand now.

Maybe they mean diluting the brand?

Sure, there's some gobby shitebags that like to have their voice heard, so they shout louder, but those people are never going to be our customers, I kind of think of them as the same people in the audience at Top Gear, moaning about how crap the new Porsche 911 is and how they were just about to buy one but how now they'll just buy a Clio instead.

As is evidenced by just about every thread on this forum that mentions us, STW forum regulars are just not our type of customer (that sounded wrong, I meant that we're not their type of bike company).

I am in the position of looking for something a little special, probably custom steel and definitely a 29er for covering the miles. Options and little details are pretty clear in my mind but open to suggestions from a builder. Shand was on my list of those to contact. I currently have a Chinese carbon 29er which is an absolutely perfect bike functionally but doesn't get me all that excited to ride it and it is so stiff that it feels a bit dead...

I feel Singletrackworld is also exactly the customer base you describe. You'll struggle to find a collection of mid life crisis IT middle managers with disposable income anywhere else that absolutely buys in to the niche products you provide (UK made, steel, hand crafted with passion, etc, etc)....

Anyway, if anyone reading this ever was a potential customer then I fear they may not be now. Some of the web descriptions are pretty misleading as has already been mentioned (if people don't make a link to the generic Chinese frames then they'll likely ask why it looks almost identical to the Trek) but the patronising stuff above about how a clued up or passionate customer (the ones I think would naturally gravitate to steel Shands) will switch a lot of people off. I guess it comes across a little like you taking your customers for idiots (rightly or wrongly) and the delivery of something that is such a radical departure for the brand wasn't very subtle. You've basically said that you customer base as you see it is numpties with more money than sense. If the vocal people here are like gobby Top Gear types then your comments are like a wood burner or Audi salesperson coming in and telling STW you are not our type of people 🙂

The decision to do this carbon frame is a little odd, yes, but sticking to the bit about extra support, ability to provide new exciting products in the future as a result, offer better value on full bike, etc would completely makes sense. No-one can argue with any of that. As I said, Shand was on my list but now I will look more to some of the other steel builders in the South West first and then hunt further afield.

I absolutely do sympathise with the situation and can't begin to imagine how demoralizing it must be to read negativity when you are excited to introduce something new but I do genuinely hope the feedback as a potential customer helps in some way.

Anyway, if anyone reading this ever was a potential customer then I fear they may not be now.

True. They've all gone and bought small French cars now.

I think what stumpy01 has pointed out above is the crux of it - this bike is being misrepresented as a Shand design, as opposed to a catalog frame. Reading the reply from shand, I can see hsi point of view, he's building his business, and doing something that almost every manufacturer does, but that bike sticks out like a sore thumb in the range precisely because it's a catalog fram, and lacks the craft and attention that makes all the other Shands so desirable. If Shand had designed it, I'd imagine this thread would be full of folks drooling over it - was certainly the case with the fat bikes they've done in the past.

I think the steel bikes are stunning - I very much want a Stoater, and I don't think this particularly changes my mind - I suppose that dpends how much importance you place on "the brand" versus the bike/frame itself.

for me, I'd love to be financialy able to buy a Shand. Relatively local and as others have mentioned, the image is one of meticulous craftmanship and uniqueness.

The carbon bike seems to be an interim, a distraction from the purity of handbuilt steel bikes, like a trainee yoof has badgered and badgered about these new chubby semi fat plastic bikes and shand has dismissed the 'if it's not been in the industry 15 years it's not going to stick*' philosophy to shut them up.

[i]*this is merely a perception based comment relating to traditional standards, akin to roadies still insisting that campag is the best.[/i]

The reality of course is more likely to be trying out a market as best they can before committing to in house techniques/improvements/designs.

I doubt there'd be this level of fervour if this bike (and other, similar products in future) where marketed as a sister brand called "shhh…and". Probably the opposite.

And I don't get how people would now not consider buying British-made steel from them – that side of the business and customer experience is still exactly the same as it was last week.

I would love a Drove. Think they look stunning!

I've seen Shand paint jobs up close they are truly lovely 🙂

I applaud them for doing what's necessary in a very competitive market !

If you google "Shand Oykel" this thread is the top result so I guess any customer who does even the tinyest bit of research will know what they are getting.

I would love a Drove. Think they look stunning!

Would still love another Shand

RestlessNative - Member
If you google "Shand Oykel" this thread is the top result

I'm still not getting how this affects anything to do with the steel frame business, other than maybe creating a bit of profit to help sustain the business. But then I buy on practical considerations and not because I'm hoping my buying choices change folks perception of me.

It'll certainly be top for any STW user.

Nah, comes up regardless.

I can live with Shand using off the shelf Chinese frames to grow the business etc. It's the fact its basically a rip off of a Trek Stache that niggles.

"Our solution is to move the chain stay out the way altogether"

Er, you mean Treks solution?

The Trek complete bike is only a few hundred quid more than the Shand frame only price. I understand it's Alu and doesnt have Shand on the downtube, but the Trek has better drop outs and a lifetime warranty.

But then I buy on practical considerations and not because I'm hoping my buying choices change folks perception of me.

I've read this thread and get the feeling that a lot of you are just trying to bully the guy. He's come on here and given his thoughts, explained his position etc.
What do you think it will achieve by repeating the same comments over and over?
What will make you happy?
Are you happy that you could have potentially ruined the sales of this bike with all this negativity?

Some of you come across as complete tosspots with [i]your[/i] opinions on how [i]he[/i] should run [i]his[/i] business and marketing. I bet you wouldn't be so rude if you met him in person. If you're so wonderful and knowledgeable set up your own bike company and try to be successful.

It's just a new bike for God's sake, it really isn't that important. You either like it or you don't.

Er, you mean Treks solution?

[url= https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2066/2434061710_481c6121e7_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2066/2434061710_481c6121e7_z.jp g"/> ?zz=1[/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/4H6cKd ]Alpinestars[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/cycleologist/ ]Ben Cooper[/url], on Flickr

Didn't those alpinestars have a new headset standard as well 😉

Certainly an interesting direction for Shand. I wonder if the further developments are a lot more frames down this route. I can see how full custom is a fairly saturated market and even high end UK made stuff will have a fairly small market too. So you must look around and see the loads of 'manufacturers' badging up Chinese stuff and selling by the load, might as well cash in on brand perception. I'm not sure how the UK made steel stuff can coexist though. If they are saying this carbon bike is good enough to sell as a Shand why would you buy the steel one? FWIW I bought a Planet X once over a Chinese carbon frame because there wasn't much in the price but at twice the price I'd certainly not have bought it.

And Nishiki before that afaik

Some of you come across as complete tosspots with your opinions on how he should run his business and marketing. I bet you wouldn't be so rude if you met him in person. If you're so wonderful and knowledgeable set up your own bike company and try to be successful.

I soooo wanted one those e-stay alpinestars back in the day...till i tried a mates 3 week old bike and snapped the rear stays at the dropouts doing a small drop-off 😳

Some of you come across as complete tosspots with your opinions on how he should run his business and marketing. I bet you wouldn't be so rude if you met him in person.

You do know what a forum is, yes? 😆

You do know what a forum is, yes?

I know, but there's a difference between spouting shite and shouting spite.

Good work sir. Is that one yours? I may ask to borrow it. 😆