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"Or at the very least not go backwards. Why shouldn’t it be possible? I’m not trying to be world champion, I’m not trying to win anything or compete. I just want to be a decent all round rider able to ride anything and everything in reasonable style. That shouldn’t be some kind of massive challenge. Isn’t that what ALL of us are trying to do???"
It isn't possible for the same reason that professional sportspeople retire from competition as they get older. So yes, it is a massive challenge. You've been riding for years, you'll have had lots of beginner gains in the early months/years and then progress becomes slower, more erratic and more difficult. And as you get older your recovery time increases and the risk of injury increases. In sports science you have your Minimum Effective Volume and your Maximum Recoverable Volume, where volume is the amount of physical work you're doing.
The longer you've been riding seriously for and the older you are, the greater your MEV is, so the more work you have to do to make progress. But as you get older your MRV decreases. Eventually your MEV will be greater than your MRV and thus progress will be impossible, simply due to old age. This is life.
If you want to make progress now, then you have to train clever. Or change sport to something you're a beginner at, then you can enjoy beginner gains again.
So either improve your approach to training or accept the bodies natural decline.
It really is this simple, not sure why this is hard to understand. It is true until a certain point and then no matter of training will help you ride like you did when you were 40 (i.e when you are 80 years old)
Riding well is medicine. But not riding well is poison.
It's all riding it's all good... I think your mindset simply needs adjustment.
While you've written a lot OP about your performance expectations, competitive mindset and time/money invested vs payoff, I did note your 'poor' performance came at the end of (IIRC) three days during which you must have clocked up what 10-12hrs riding?
So basically you were a bit tired (and the weather was bad), you're allowed to get tired, it's a natural response to physical effort... You've not suddenly become a terrible, unfit cyclist.
The Pro's have rest days and it's pretty widely acknowledged that rest is as important as effort in building/maintaining performance. It just sounds like you're someone who regularly red-lines himself in order to maintain a single performance metric (Avg speed) which TBH isn't a sensible way to live...
You might consider all other measurements of physical performance to be nerdy bollox, but there is some useful method to such madness...
You don't have to go full stato but I can't recommend the use of a HRM highly enough, work out your zones, measure what your heart does on a ride and review (this doesn't have to involve going "Full Strava" other sports tracking services/apps are available) just being able to monitor how hard you've worked and see how your feelings of fatigue/freshness correlate...
But honestly if you're only measurement of performance is avg speed you're not really measuring anything, it's like screaming your car about flat-out everywhere, and then complaining you aren't getting the advertised MPG, and you need new tyres every 500 miles. Maintenance and moderation are required to get the best overall performance and it's worth looking at the rev counter as much as the speedo to figure out if you are wrecking your engine... </clunky analogy>
Ok, here's a thing. As a man who's just received his winter fuel allowance, I understand that age brings a reduction in physical ability. Look at any top level sports person and they stop winning as they get older. That's why there are vets and supervets categories in many sports. People like Ryan Giggs and Paul McGrath kept going by diet and yoga (not Paul McGrath) but importantly by reading the game and finding a way of being in the right place without having to run as fast.
Make a graph. Plot a line which represents a typical downturn in performance over years. Now check your results against that baseline.
When I was 2 I was proud of I went through the night without wetting the bed, could walk 10 steps and could eat my dinner unaided. At 65 I'm still proud when I can manage 1 or 2 of them.
Why shouldn’t it be possible?
It is, but as you get older it needs to be more structured if you want to maintain your fitness, that's just a physiological truth that you need to grasp I'm afriad.
Part of that is expecting and accepting that you need to allow time for recovery and rest, otherwise you won't succeed
so in my head it went over 18 average – “good job well done”, 17-18 average. B+ could do better. 16-17 – poor, get yer act together. Below 16 never happened, but would have been “go out and do the ride again – properly this time”.
I'm a bit puzzled about what you are trying to achieve. If I follow you correctly, you don't actually race, but are "intensely competitive". However that competitiveness takes the form of trying to ride at over 18mph? Trying to beat an arbitrary average speed seems an odd competitive target.
If you really want to test yourself objectively, have you thought about actually racing? Entering your local 10 mile club TT next season would be the obvious place to start. Then you can test yourself against other people of a similar age, rather than competing against your own average speed, which is inevitably going to decline as you age.
just ride and expect your numbers to improve
Or at the very least not go backwards. Why shouldn’t it be possible? I’m not trying to be world champion, I’m not trying to win anything or compete. I just want to be a decent all round rider able to ride anything and everything in reasonable style. That shouldn’t be some kind of massive challenge. Isn’t that what ALL of us are trying to do???
I suggest you read the Joe Friel book, Fast After 50, which explains how various aspects of your fitness inevitably decline with age. You can't completely halt that decline, but you can - by tweaking your diet, your riding regime, accepting that you need more recovery etc - reduce the rate of decline. You can do that, but you can't do it effectively by just riding around.
That shouldn’t be some kind of massive challenge. Isn’t that what ALL of us are trying to do???
Some people are, some aren't. We're all on a continuum and you're at one end. The guys who don't care about their fitness and just want to enjoy being out on a bike are at the other end. Personally I find not being fit and riding really frustrating, so I don't really enjoy it, but that's me. Not everyone is the same.
People seem to be making this really complicated, which it's not, really. When you're younger, you can get away with just riding because there's no significant physiological decline. Plus you may be inadvertently training. Traffic light starts and sprinting for signs are stressing yours system in the same way as some structured intervals. As you get older, your baseline declines. If you don't do anything to slow that decline, it'll just go on. If you're prepared to do some remedial work, the rate of decline will slow considerably and you can still up your performance if you've dropped below what's possible with your engine.
It's basically your choice whether you bother or not, but if you don't change what you're doing, why would your body respond any differently. You don't have to sit on a turbo doing structured intervals, though it is efficient, you can go out and sprint for signs, then recover then do it again. You can blast every hill, then ride the downs / flats at a much lower pace so you're effectively doing intervals - try chasing Strava segments if you're that way inclined, or just hammer kick climbs really hard, then recover, then do it again. And don't get obsessed with average speeds. You don't have to do it every ride, just try it a couple of times a week and mix it up with your regular, steadier rides which are probably mostly happening below threshold at a level that's not stressing your system enough to stimulate improvement, though that's just a guess obviously.
And you could try a very basic formula of not riding hard on consecutive days. Not 'not riding', just taking it easy on the day after. Plus have one day a week that's just a non-riding, non-running, non-gym, recovery day.
If what you're doing doesn't work, why not try something slightly different? It might work, you might even enjoy the process.
As others have said here, comparing yourself to a younger version of you (or a version of you that is only possible in warm weather and on dry roads...) is never going to end well.
Using *just* average speed is a very clunky way of measuring any form of progression since it's affected by so many factors - wind, weather, road surface, traffic, fatigue/illness, terrain, ride distance..
You've got two options:
- learn to use the upload / download / Strava / heart rate / power metrics and devise a proper training programme around them designed to increase your speed.
- accept that an arbitrary average speed metric is not helping you in any way and bin it off.
Same with Leeds Urban Bike Park - if you accept it for what it is (a big playground) it's brilliant (and given it's very sanitised nature, it's amazing at developing skills). If you go there wanting it to be a vast natural forest then you'll be disappointed.
BadlyWiredDogs post in graphics; This was done out side, on a country land with a convenient hump in the middle, just sprint, and rest:
[url= https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4819/32289115728_008f1f25db_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4819/32289115728_008f1f25db_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/RchaaS ]2018-12-03_01-38-57[/url]
This was todays lunch hour, recovery, riding slowly to a cafe:
[url= https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4851/44343455630_b48dc34086_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4851/44343455630_b48dc34086_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2aytNss ]20181203_124608[/url]
This was indoors:
[url= https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4686/38642620144_14fe167a2d_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4686/38642620144_14fe167a2d_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/21SHwFs ]2017-12-28_01-23-41[/url]
No reason structured training can't be fun in a variety of ways, see?
You’ve got two options:
– learn to use the upload / download / Strava / heart rate / power metrics and devise a proper training programme around them designed to increase your speed.
– accept that an arbitrary average speed metric is not helping you in any way and bin it off.
As per my post above, I reckon there's maybe a third, less structured option which might work better for someone who's not into Strava and stats and power meters. Less efficient for sure, but better than just riding relatively steady repeatedly. But yeah, using average speed as a metric doesn't tell you a lot.
Another example of unstructured, coincidental training. Any sort of Fight Club-style mountain bike group where people are determined to rip each others' legs off, get to the top of the next climb first etc, then wait for stragglers is again effectively a roughly-hewn interval session. We had a group like that for a while and it was just as brutal, if you wanted it to be, as a lot of structured work-outs, maybe more brutal if you're wired that way.
Anyway, that might be a point somewhere between full-on structured training and just riding around that works. Who knows, but best of luck with it anyway. Hope you get the joy of riding back however you go about it 🙂
You’re basically stuck in a massive contradiction. Either ride for smiles or train in a organised manner if you want your numbers to improve. You can’t just ride and expect your numbers to improve – that only happens when you’re a beginner at a sport, whatever the sport is.
I know what you mean but could disagree based on my own experience. I'd say you could, assuming some natural variety in your riding, to a point where you can be fitter than most riders w/o much reference to HR or watts and dull training stuff. When you realise that base miles is just pootling (largely / simplifying I know) and riding a SS can count as your HIT or hill work, all you need to do is structure normal riding that has some variety in it around some sound theories, and you can stay relatively quick - only 12 weeks from a fair race performance even. I found ways to make Z2 rides more challenging (try riding hills in Z2 and a larger gear) and only ever used a turbo for focused race tune-up - ie most years I just CBA.
some sound theories
Thats the key. If the OP took some time to understand the theories of rides in Z1/Recovery, Z2, Sweet Spot, Z5/6 only even by RPE that'd be far better than smashing every ride.
"I’d say you could, assuming some natural variety in your riding, to a point where you can be fitter than most riders"
Being fitter than other riders is easy (or not) depending on your genetics. But continual linear progress is impossible as an athlete without periodised training - that periodised training could be deliberately mixing up your riding in a cunning way or it could be more structured, it just depends on your own natural ability to judge your work rate, work load and recovery time.
Alf Tupper was a fictional character.
You're not Alf Tupper.
Can't be bothered reading all that, but getting older with "unstructured training" (just riding your bike) will almost certainly mean that you get slower. You know that deep down.
I'm taking a guess here, but I'll share (I know Jon offline too). I think that the traffic light sprints you used to get from commuting in the big smoke were basically VO2_max intervals - hammer it for 30 seconds to 3 minutes, then rest/active recover for a similar period. Repeat for about an hour or so. This is one of the best ways to train and get seriously good adaptations (in muscles, CV system etc), not just for sprints but also longer sustained outputs. Even a TT training plan would incorporate a solid block of this type of work.
You've lost that top-end productive work and replaced it with a lot of junk miles. That means you've got slower.
Sorry if that comes across a bit brutal, it's meant with good intentions and happy to discuss further - maybe on our next MTB or road ride.
were basically VO2_max intervals
If you have a look at my Zwift screen shot ^^ which was from last year, you'll see that's exactly what that is. FWIW I'm training 5-7% higher this year. That can be replicated on a quite-ish road or hill. Quality though will come from a turbo and I'd challenge you would not get bored attempting that, and FWIW I have quite a low VO2Max.
The main thing - never give up...
[url= https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4876/44345880850_374638e543_o.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4876/44345880850_374638e543_o.jp g"/> [/img][/url](Pic by Colin Kirsch "The sixth age...")
For me anyone who goes on a recovery ride from a computer game has entirely missed the point of riding a bike.
I WANT to ride for smiles. But being GOOD (at anything) is what makes me happy
Ride a shitty little hardtail, bald tyres, brakes that hardly work and a groupset and fork from a decade ago. Ride it all the time. Not for fitness though (but that will still happen), learn how to play with it in the mud, on the streets, in the sun/rain/snow, in rocks/roots, at jumps, pump/bmx tracks, and down the steepest gnarliest tracks you can find. Buy a long seatpost for it and take it on group rides with fitter riders on nice modern 150-170mm bikes. Struggle a bit on the climbs. At the top of the climb use your seat QR and slam the saddle. then hand the fit riders their arse on every descents.
Being "good" on a bike has very little to do with fitness. Being "excellent" just takes time.
For me anyone who goes on a recovery ride from a computer game has entirely missed the point of riding a bike.
Why? I use a computer games to race. 100+ riders going balls out but without the danger of one crashing into you. Tactics, emotions, adrenaline and training
Would using your ebike on zwift be considered cheating?
I use a computer games to race.
😆
Yes. so you do... hahaha
Gran turismo is a way better racing game in every way. Especially if you have Zwift kind of money and space to build yourself a permanent racing wheel/pedals/seat set up.
Actually pumped BMX free on a phone is more realistic cycling game.
I do get that indoor training is dull.
Would using your ebike on zwift be considered cheating?
No. It's not (actually) racing.
Stands to reason there will be cheats on Zwift though
No. It’s not (actually) racing.
Sure it is. Maybe not to you though.
I'm only messin' wid ya Weeks
As stated. For me. It's missing the point. Me. Not you.
We're all geeks. if pedalling in a bubblewrap environment is your preferred racing platform i'm cool wid dat.
I'd probably kick your arse on GT tho. 😉
that periodised training could be deliberately mixing up your riding in a cunning way or it could be more structured, it just depends on your own natural ability to judge your work rate, work load and recovery time.
Yes, that's basically what I'm getting at. Whether you're naturally fitter/more able or not, for many riders who aren't aiming at absolute peak fitness the variety and structure that sees fitness develop can be part of normal riding that's enjoyable. Train for a couple of seasons and see the result then apply those lessons to less 'training' biased riding.
Interesting discussion of intervals vs junk miles in this Trainerroad blog at 1:29:
I’d probably kick your arse on GT tho.
Id die trying
😆
Why? I use a computer games to race. 100+ riders going balls out but without the danger of one crashing into you. Tactics, emotions, adrenaline and training
I think Zwift is an excellent training platform and I thoroughly enjoy the multiplayer element, but it's a very pale imitation of the tactics and adrenaline of real road racing, even if that's just the<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> local fish and chipper. The intensity of riding in a real 100+ bunch is a virtual world away from the Zwift experience!</span>
This is sort of what I was getting at in my earlier response to the OP. There's something special about the face to face nature of real racing against real people (even a club 10) that might give a new perspective on competition that you're not getting from just trying to beat an arbitrary average speed.
"Junk miles" - you're doing it wrong if you think any time on the bike is junk.
“Junk miles” – you’re doing it wrong if you think any time on the bike is junk.
Exactly, well said
“Junk miles” – you’re doing it wrong if you think any time on the bike is junk.
It's a coaching term used to describe excessive, usually low intensity, riding that is not contributing anything useful to your training goals. Most training involves a certain amount of useful base work, but if all you do is base miles, the extra is "junk miles", when you could be doing something more useful (in training terms).
If you are not training for something specific, and just enjoy riding your bike in an unstructured way, there's no such thing as junk miles.
For those interested in structured training, this is well worth a listen.
Average speed in a ride a is a very inaccurate way to determine fitness. Too many variables e.g. terrain, weather, wind speeds and direction, you on that etc day to allow you to compare rides.
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> It's all about power output or heart rate. I'm not suggesting get these. </span>
Just don't beat yourself up by looking at average speeds when it's not reliable data.
I think Zwift is an excellent training platform and I thoroughly enjoy the multiplayer element, but it’s a very pale imitation of the tactics and adrenaline of real road racing, even if that’s just the<span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”> local fish and chipper. The intensity of riding in a real 100+ bunch is a virtual world away from the Zwift experience
Kinda.... the club stuff can leave you feeling a bit flat and is a lot harder to find a race at the lower end of the scale.
This time last year or so i was putting out 280w on Zwift as my percieved FTP and was happy racing and riding the bike hard... So i did a couple of Cat4s and was destroyed and dropped fairly easily and quickly... I was top of C on Zwift then, possibly mid-low B.... Of course some of that is tactics, skill whatever you want to call it... but getting 'involved' in the race is a lot easier on Zwift... Sure it may lack the psychlogical insanity of real world racing... but that's only if you actually make it past the first 15 mins of racing 🙂 hahahaha. Which of course can be easier said than done.
Looking back i should have tried a few different things in Cat 4's and when dropped, taken 3/4 of a lap and then tried to get back in the bunch for practice and experience... .but you don't always think of these things at the time.
Outdoor Cat4 racing put me off outdoor cat4 racing, Zwift still holds my interest.
I think the OP's desire to stay a bit quick though his forties is a perfectly reasonable idea.
I dont understand why so many people are giving him a hard time.
I know the feeling I seem to be slowing down too, but then you look at XC race results and you see riders in their 50's still going strong.
I think for this particular example though you seem to have been out 3 days in a row and its wet and its winter. So no doubt you will be slower.
I am alot alot slower in winter and im sure 90% of riders are too.
A least be thankful your chosen sport isn't football or something similar once you get past about 35 you just keep getting worse and worse very quickly and there is really nothing you can do.
I think the OP’s desire to stay a bit quick though his forties is a perfectly reasonable idea.
I dont understand why so many people are giving him a hard time.
It's the classic STW / internet thing of thinking everyone thinks the way you do. So if you're someone who's happy getting slower and slower and simply rolling around with a big grin on your face, you think anyone who isn't wired the same way is weird.
I think I said earlier in the thread that the OP is at one end of a spectrum that ranges between super motivated and fitness / performance driven at one extreme to 'it's just about enjoying riding, fitness is irrelevant at the other'.
Where he's a little odd is that most driven riders will also be prepared to make some sort of semi-structured effort to maintain fitness rather than 'just riding'.
To be fair, when someone says that they're unhappy with what they're doing / achieving, one obvious response is to stop judging yourself so brutally, which is what quite a few people have said. Anyway...
We're all different, who'd have thunk it?
No problem with the OP wanting to stay quick, he's just going about it the wrong way.
To improve (or not slow down) you need to stress the body then recover so a ride with a lot of Z4/5 in it then two or three rides at Z1/2. As you get older those "two or three rides" become "three or four" then "four or five". What the OP is doing is stress, stress, stress, stress. There's no recovery.
An example: a friend who is in his late 60s says he can go out with his club's Sunday A-ride but only once a fortnight, he can't recover quickly enough to go with them every week.
Pro riders don't do "junk" miles, every ride they do has a purpose and one purpose is recovery. Obviously their recovery pace is considerably more than yours or mine but the purpose is the same.
I think the OP’s desire to stay a bit quick though his forties is a perfectly reasonable idea.
I dont understand why so many people are giving him a hard time.
Because he wants it to just magically happen I suppose.