Interesting comparison of two new systems.
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/products/battle-of-the-anti-lock-braking-systems-shimano-vs-bosch
But how would I do cool skids?
But how would I do cool skids?
Jam your heel into the back tyre. Don't they teach that in school these days?
It will be the same argument as when first seen on cars. I can stop just as quickly without them because of my great driving skills. Then in every single test (possibly bar ice/snow) the ABS car completely trounces the non ABS car.
An ABS bike will be able to stop more quickly. Not a requirement for me and my riding but could be useful for a lot of scenarios.
The big feature of ABS in a car is the ability to steer around an obstacle while braking to the limit.
How well does this work on a loose surface on a bicycle (or m/cycle if you have that experience) without you ending up in the dirt?
Off road it wont work properly. I have ABS on my KTM motorbike - great and effective on the road, off road it does not work. As such KTM have a button that turns it off for off road use.
There was a short thread about it a while back - https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/new-shimano-groupset-features-anti-lock-brakes/
My intiial thought was its fine on tarmac as its more consistent, but when the grip changes within centimetres it loses all benefits (although maybe the opposite is true, and its exactly because of the inconsitencies it is more beneficial).
Off road it wont work properly
Steve Jones from EMBN, a very talented and fast rider, has been using it and says its just about the best thing he's ever tried on a mountain bike. Up there with suspension and disk brakes as game changers. I remember the resistance when those things came in too.
Does indeed sound impressive. I wonder if it will be tested by some pros for racing.
ABS is brilliant stuff and it improves braking in almost every scenario (I work in brakes design for a car manufacturer).
BUT it deskills the art of driving/riding: whether that matters to you is a personal choice.
I have a kitcar without ABS and I'm not gonna rush to get ABS fitted. I like having to think and handle the car properly. I suspect I would/do feel the same about riding my bike. I like being skilled at it and I wouldn't want to hand over any of that task.
Do rally cars have ABS? if they do, how do they cope with the different surfaces seen on the same stages?
Anyone able to find a picture of those abs cantis from some time in the 90s?
found it
Up there with suspension and disk brakes as game changers.
Well, this will be great for certain kinds of riding - but suspension benefits more users I reckon and discs basically everyone.
As suspension and disk brakes are game changers, do they not also play a part in de-skilling riding ability? Does anyone care if they do?
Surely skill has to be put within the context of the speeds / terrain that these tehcnical advances allow you to ride at? If you're 'pushing your limit' on whatever bike you have (whether that be rigid singlespeed with canti brakes or full sus with ABS disck brakes) the level of skill required is still going to be at 'max', but perhaps slightly different to deal with the different forces you're in control of.
do they not also play a part in de-skilling riding ability?
No. Discs work the same as cantis but better and more consistently so it's the same but better. Suspension changes the skills though. You still have to pick lines etc but you have to pick different ones on the same trail, and you are (or should be) going much faster so on trails where you would be avoiding rocks on a rigid bike you could be for example looking for berms or lips to jump etc. Completely different experience in that respect.
Yours sincerely,
Molgrips
Rigid bike rider, Short travel FS rider, Long travel FS rider
The big feature of ABS in a car is the ability to steer around an obstacle while braking to the limit.
True, but cars don't generally slide out from under you if you lock the brakes. Like it or not, getting people out of cars is going to involve a lot of people on bikes that we wouldn't regard as "proper cyclists" - the sort of people who when things go wrong in traffic will follow their instincts and grab the brakes in a vice grip. If they don't end up sliding along the road, I can see this being a good thing.
pandhandj
Free MemberDo rally cars have ABS? if they do, how do they cope with the different surfaces seen on the same stages?
Not in WRC at least, it's banned in the regs.
When it was allowed it worked very well and as far as i remember everybody used it because it was quicker.
everybody used it because it was quicker
Absolutely true and it's the same in all motorsport. If you can deskill the task of driving the car, and leave the driver with a lower workload, then you will probably be faster.
But look what's happened in Formula 1 - so much technology that it's become dull to watch and faster. They've banned some of the technology but races are won or lost by the Engineering department not by the driver, on the race track.
I'd rather that didn't happen to me. I ride fast enough and I enjoy the workload necessary to ride like that. I don't just want to go faster everywhere but YMMV :o)
be interesting to give it a go, but there is a shitload of other stuff I'd spend money on first.
Was this a problem which needed solution? I can't think of many situations where having ABS would've made the difference between a stop and a crash. Usually by the time I'm in the situation where I'm needing (or at least automatically reaching for) a fistfull of brake lever, having ABS would make naff all difference in terms of impact speed.
Is it an ebike thing? You're always able to accelerate faster and harder, so in some situations, being able to stop faster would be better?
Daffy
Full MemberWas this a problem which needed solution? I can’t think of many situations where having ABS would’ve made the difference between a stop and a crash. Usually by the time I’m in the situation where I’m needing (or at least automatically reaching for) a fistfull of brake lever, having ABS would make naff all difference in terms of impact speed.
Is it an ebike thing? You’re always able to accelerate faster and harder, so in some situations, being able to stop faster would be better?
Posted 5 minutes ago
I've had a near crash where it would have helped.
Last run for the day, I hit a couple of steep-ish downhills then a fast sweeping right turn with trees on the outside.
I realised I had way too much speed, and I grabbed a bit too much front brake. Surface was loose stones and roots, and as soon the front wheel was locked, the bike straight-lined which put me on a path right towards headbutting a tree at approx 25 mph.
Took all of my will power to force my hand to let go of that brake and get the wheel turning again so I could get the bike turned. Every instinct was telling my to squeeze the brake more!
Very very scary, and I still have nightmares about it to this day!
I had a BMW motorcycle with ABS you could still turn the bike when the abs kicked in
True, but cars don’t generally slide out from under you if you lock the brakes.
True. You just zoom headlong into a ditch.
JAG
Absolutely true and it’s the same in all motorsport. If you can deskill the task of driving the car, and leave the driver with a lower workload, then you will probably be faster.
But look what’s happened in Formula 1 – so much technology that it’s become dull to watch and faster. They’ve banned some of the technology but races are won or lost by the Engineering department not by the driver, on the race track.
I’d rather that didn’t happen to me. I ride fast enough and I enjoy the workload necessary to ride like that. I don’t just want to go faster everywhere but YMMV :o)
Literally couldn't have picked a worse time to say that about F1 lol, almost every race for the last two/three years has been a banger!
Agree about the workload thing though, I ride my bike for enjoyment, getting the braking perfect is part of that enjoyment, same as picking a good line, timing a gearchange just right etc.
Do rally cars have ABS? if they do, how do they cope with the different surfaces seen on the same stages?
I remember reading a car magazine article back in the late 1980s when 4WD turbo hot hatches were just starting to take over. I don't remember which manufacturer it was, but someone released their new hot hatch and rounded up some rally drivers and journalists to drive it round some gravel roads to show off how potent it was. The rally drivers weren't used to ABS on their race cars so they all struggled because they were used to just stamping on the brakes and flicking the car sideways into corners, but the ABS made it impossible to lock the wheels.
However, that was 35 years ago and the manufacturers will have figured out how to program the systems for different surfaces. I'm pretty sure that rally teams would all use ABS if it was permitted - if they couldn't program it to work optimally in mixed conditions, they'd probably have the co-driver change modes as needed.
I could see it making descending on a bike much faster because you could brake much later with confidence. You'd need to do some practice runs to find the optimum braking point for each corner, but after that, you'd just haul on the brakes as hard as you can and let the ABS take care of things.
I suspect it's probably going to be popular with the same sort of person who likes e-bikes. I'm not evangelizing about the skills/fitness needed to ride a bike, but to me my whole hobby is intrinsically about the challenge, which is why I've probably had so many rigid singlespeeds as well.
Others just want to do fast laps of a trail center a few times a month, and will enjoy anything that makes that faster. Which is fine. I mean objectively e-bikes and ABS will have a much better cost/benefit than upgrading from Deore to XTR, a £5k e-bike is objectively a much better bike than a £5k trail bike when compared to the ~£1500 entry level to the same range.
But look what’s happened in Formula 1 – so much technology that it’s
become dullremained just as dull to watch and faster.
F1 races have been dull for decades. To make them thrilling, you'd need to reduce the downforce by about 90% but then they'd be really slow.
Is it an ebike thing?
Pretty sure it is, yep!
Others just want to do fast laps of a trail center a few times a month, and will enjoy anything that makes that faster.
will it make the braking bumps better or worse?
thisisnotaspoon
I suspect it’s probably going to be popular with the same sort of person who likes e-bikes.
Certainly one type of eBike rider**... and I guess it will pair well with a suspension saddle/seatpost as well.
**usually seen riding a long travel EEB around an XC type trail centre
Back in about 2006-2008 everyone was whinging that dropper posts were “deskilling” riders and they’d never get one “well maybe if I did the Megavalanche, but I’d take it back off afterwards” and now look at us all, nearly all of have one.
And people were often quite aggressive and militant about their opinions of them
The same was said about about disc brakes and I assume suspension (but that was before my time as I didn’t buy a decent MTB until the late 90s).
In 10 years when it’s proven it’s benefits and is cheaper a lot of the people on here complaining will probably have it on their bikes.
I’ve only got a car/van that has ABS in the last 4 or 5 years and it’s taken a while to relearn not to cadence brake and rely on the ABS but I’m a convert (just need to get the hang of Traction control/electronic stability platform systems now #motoring luddite).
I love blasting around in old sporty cars without it (Caterham, Mk1Golf, GTi, etc) but for every day I’m converted.
Daffy. I have seen a pal crash because he wasn't confident in using the front brake and locked up the rear. I have also had somone run into me from behind because he couldn't use the brakes properly when i did a hard stop. ABSwould have prevented both
It always puzzles me that practicing hard braking is not something mtbers do.
In 10 years when it’s proven it’s benefits and is cheaper a lot of the people on here complaining will probably have it on their bikes.
Unlike suspension or disks, I can't see that being the case.
Because these systems rely on some degree of power to function. You couldn't run ABS without a battery (presumably quite a bit more than Di2) , so it's going to be contained to e-bikes.
It also depends how clever the system is, the basic motorcycle system only works in a straight line, it's only the last few years that "cornering ABS" has been a thing. So that's a whole load more sensors that would be needed to make it even applicable to trail centers let alone loose surfaces.
@tjagain. Just having ABS likely wouldn’t have prevented either crash. It’s not a time machine. Reaction time and traction are still the biggest factors.
As someone with an old car, the most common things that go wrong with it are not the parts that allow it to function, but the sensors which report on how it’s behaving. They’re both expensive and prone to faults. Do you really want/need this on a bicycle?
Just having ABS likely wouldn’t have prevented either crash. It’s not a time machine. Reaction time and traction are still the biggest factors.
A lot of people are afraid to use the front brake properly, they think they'll crash if they do. For rental bikes ridden by beginners, ABS sounds like a great idea.
If I was running a bike skills course for beginners, I'd start them out on an ABS equipped bike to show them how powerful the front brake can be, then switch them to a regular bike to practice modulating the brake.
Up there with suspension and disk brakes as game changers. I remember the resistance when those things came in too.
That's the second time in a week that someone has referred to "resistance" to the introduction of suspension and disk brakes. I really don't recall any of that.
Daffy. I have seen a pal crash because he wasn’t confident in using the front brake and locked up the rear. I have also had somone run into me from behind because he couldn’t use the brakes properly when i did a hard stop. ABSwould have prevented both
It always puzzles me that practicing hard braking is not something mtbers do.
Basing all the below on the assumtion, from the OPs link that the brakes are still indipendently controlled front and rear, would ABS really have prevented these two crashes?
In the first case, if someone is incorrectly afraid of the front brake then they wont use it in a panic/emeregency. Yes they wouldn't have skidded the rear but how much extra stopping power would they have got out of an ABS rear? enough to save them?
In the second, how hard did you brake (with your regular brakes) for the person behind to be unable to match you? If he was just wanging the brakes on full power with ABS without the correct technique of heel dropping and bracing (not locking) his elbows - and ideally, the seat being down to aid both of these - then the greatest automatic brakes in the world would do naff all apart from send him into you head first rather than wheel first...
On your last point - yes, some of us do practise. I think, depending on how you define it.
My local trails, I'm experimenting on how hard and late I can brake, along with leaning, body position and so on. Not to mention also trying to improve on flow/line choices.
So in that way I am practising it. I'm not, for example, going to a grassy slope and doing runs up and down to find the limit.
Now, I'm not against it. If I could have a fleet of money no object wunderbikes and an uninterupted worldwide playground to enjoy them on, then an ABS equipped long travel ebike would be part of that fleet.
That’s the second time in a week that someone has referred to “resistance” to the introduction of suspension and disk brakes. I really don’t recall any of that.
both of these are before my time for MTBs. But look to the road world in the last few years for aggressive and often illogical anti disk sentiment.
I have though been around long enough to remember the anti dropper sentiment. Now I wasnt an early adopter, and it helps if you were riding with people of the same mindset/budget who also didn't have them.
But some people on the internet were against them specifically for the reason of them making it easier, as if the behind saddle, gangly limbs pose was the pinnacle of off roading purity.
As an aside, the last holdouts on droppers who may have had a point are XC racers - as the reliability and weight issues may well have in some cases been worth handicapping your bike handling ability.
Watching the world cup XC, both Rob and Bart call them telescopic seatposts, never using the term dropper. I wonder if there was a bit of a re-brand to get them accepted in this arena?
That’s the second time in a week that someone has referred to “resistance” to the introduction of suspension and disk brakes. I really don’t recall any of that.
Fifteen to 20 years ago, these forums were full of people denouncing all the new "fads". Disk brakes were unnecessary and too heavy, hydraulic disk brakes were too complicated and cable brakes were more reliable, suspension was heavy, sapped your energy, and was just a skills compensator, tubeless tyres were a solution looking for a problem, and tyres wider than 1.95 were too draggy. People used to run their tyres at 40 psi and swore it was faster than dropping pressures. 9 speed was seen as a step too far (too be fair, the best 8-speed stuff shifted amazingly). XC bikes back then were basically gravel bikes now and a 6" travel fork weighed 5 pounds.
That’s the second time in a week that someone has referred to “resistance” to the introduction of suspension and disk brakes. I really don’t recall any of that.
Then you weren't there or on internet forums at the time. There was absolutely loads of resistance. The Vees vs disks debate was particularly enthusiastic.
That’s the second time in a week that someone has referred to “resistance” to the introduction of suspension and disk brakes. I really don’t recall any of that.
+1
My brother got a flex stem back in the 80s and suddenly he was faster than me on anything rough - complete no brainer. Don't recall resistance to suspension at all, nor disc brakes (except on road bikes).
Then you weren’t there or on internet forums at the time.
Suspension was pre forums - bar Usenet. Was still on 64 kb dial up when suspension forks started appearing....
Fifteen to 20 years ago, these forums were full of people denouncing all the new “fads”. Disk brakes were unnecessary and too heavy, hydraulic disk brakes were too complicated and cable brakes were more reliable
I've been on this forum for 18 years - I don't remember any of that, even at the start. My 2004 ETSX had Mono M4s and 200/180 rotors.
suspension was heavy, sapped your energy, and was just a skills compensator, tubeless tyres were a solution looking for a problem, and tyres wider than 1.95 were too draggy.
All of this was then, and still is true*.
9 speed was seen as a step too far
9Sp XTR was the APEX of shifting. If they'd have thought to do wide range...my gosh we'd have never moved on.
*this is all situation dependent.
Then you weren’t there or on internet forums at the time. There was absolutely loads of resistance. The Vees vs disks debate was particularly enthusiastic.
i think some of those arguments are still running on MTBR..
In the first case, if someone is incorrectly afraid of the front brake then they wont use it in a panic/emeregency. Yes they wouldn’t have skidded the rear but how much extra stopping power would they have got out of an ABS rear? enough to save them?
In the second, how hard did you brake (with your regular brakes) for the person behind to be unable to match you? If he was just wanging the brakes on full power with ABS without the correct technique of heel dropping and bracing (not locking) his elbows – and ideally, the seat being down to aid both of these – then the greatest automatic brakes in the world would do naff all apart from send him into you head first rather than wheel first…
On your last point – yes, some of us do practise. I think, depending on how you define it.
This ^^
That’s the second time in a week that someone has referred to “resistance” to the introduction of suspension and disk brakes. I really don’t recall any of that.
Ah but they did try and bring in automatic suspension perhaps 2yrs ago ... the stuff that magically could tell if you wanted to pre-load or not... which of course failed for anything half interesting but was an extra weight for XC I assume the bikes fitted with it just turned it off as we didn't hear of it again.
This will fail for the same reasons .. namely how does it magically know when I want to lock up the rear wheel or pull an endo ??
If they had abs they wouldnt have been scared to use the front brake. Abs on motorcycles also stops stoppies
If they had abs they wouldnt have been scared to use the front brake.
and as pointed out would just have gone OTB into you instead
Abs on motorcycles also stops stoppies
Which is why it can't work on MTB.. how the heck do you get round switchbacks if you can't lock the rear or stoppie ??
If they had abs they wouldnt have been scared to use the front brake. Abs on motorcycles also stops stoppies
I wasnt aware of this, I havent watched that embn video, going by the op's link it seemed like each brake was a separate system.
Taking a guess at how an anti stoppie feature would work in a technical sense on a road going 2 wheeler*, I do wonder how that can be applied to an mtb off road where sudden abrupt changes in terrain will greatly alter the bikes pitch and can cause either wheel to momentarily leave the ground, deliberately or accidently.
*it must know that the back wheel has or is just about to leave the ground or the bike has suddenly rotated forwards.
Both of these thing happen quite a bit on slow/medium speed descending on technical terrain where I am well in control of the bike. I certainly wouldn't want a computer preventing my front brake use until the bike levels out again.
No steve. The could have grabbed a handful and stopped without fuss
I havent watched that embn video...
... I do wonder how that can be applied to an mtb off road where sudden abrupt changes in terrain will greatly alter the bikes pitch and can cause either wheel to momentarily leave the ground, deliberately or accidently.
...Both of these thing happen quite a bit on slow/medium speed descending on technical terrain where I am well in control of the bike. I certainly wouldn’t want a computer preventing my front brake use until the bike levels out again.
At 5.30 in the video he rides some quite tech terrain and at 6.00 says its probably the most control he's ever had on that bit of trail.
It has a couple of modes for different riding (and an off position)
So, can anyone name an off-road motorcycle that uses ABS ?
Motocross, Enduro, Trials, plain old Greenlaning. I dont think any of them use it. On road, sure. Off road not.
BMW and KTM adventure bikes do.
The could have grabbed a handful and stopped without fuss
Well, they could've grabbed a handful and not locked up before impact, but whether they'd have stopped in time isn't solely in whether they had ABS. Distance, speed, traction and reaction are all still factors.
In most situations, ABS isn't going to stop a crash, it might reduce the velocity of some crashes, but IME, most aren't simply a brake/traction equation - they're a distance, time, angle, traction, reaction problem,.
I have no doubt that, as tested in the above article, and/or if you're racing and want to go pell mell into corners to gain time, or that for some reason you're throttle happy on your e-bike and the total momentum of the thing is too much for normal brakes, it's a thing...but for clockwork bikes in most general riding is it still a thing?
Marketing department has got you now 🤣 Prepare to gladly open your wallets as you're swept up by the excitement.
The Vees vs disks debate was particularly enthusiastic.
On touring bike sites they're still claiming that canti brakes are the best. I remember those ABS cantis - was it not just a cam that made your brakes flutter on-off-a-bit-on-off-a-bit? I suspect there'll be more to these new ones, but don't feel a burning urge to spaff my wages on them.
Depends what you want in life doesn’t it?
I can see the fun in not having to think about braking, just pull the lever as hard as you like and the bike will stop quickly
However I do wonder if bikes will get to the point they become a bit boring as they sanitise the experience
Same with cars - the most fun cars are the ones with no abs, no reaction, no aids. Wouldn’t be the quickest, but certainly more fun
I would look at any YouTube channel for an unbiased view
Re ABS in rally cars I’m not sure they banned ABS, more it’s a hinderance as it prevents being able to change weight distribution as easily / use brake balance effectively to steer the car
[b]Rapid Rise[/b] 9Sp XTR was the APEX of shifting
Ftfy
I mean there are roadies out there still arguing about disc vs rim brakes and they’ve had years of seeing them work well on MTBs. So I see this ABS getting a lot of push back from “real mountain bikers”. LOL
Up to the rider really isn't it. For a rider who just wants to stop as quickly and easily as possible in all scenarios (road, wet road, off road) then ABS makes sense, just as it does for the car driver.
For those that don't want it because they don't like it then don't use it, nothing is making you and I can't see it becoming compulsory on bikes somehow where currently any sort of brake is legal as long as it is a brake (coaster, anti, v, disc etc,.)
In a lot/all of scenarios the ABS braked bike will be the better option in any testing. In very few/none would the non ABS bike be better.
For a rider who just wants to stop as quickly and easily as possible in all scenarios (road, wet road, off road) then ABS makes sense, just as it does for the car driver
Not all scenarios according to Audi in the early-90s. Some (all?) of their cars had a switch to turn ABS off (definitely in 1991-92 - Audi 80 and 100 quattro). It was meant for snowy conditions where you stopped quicker with locked wheels due to a built-up wedge of snow under the tyres.
Our generation were (and still are) driving gods though, but the skills of later generations have lessened and the button no longer exists 🙂
Our generation were (and still are) driving gods though, but the skills of later generations have lessened and the button no longer exists 🙂
Not quite how it works. On snow if you gently squeeze a brake pedal you can create a lock up and avoid the ABS kicking in (not all car brands necessarily) We had a Polo that was near impossible to get the ABS to lock up on snow, but then they don’t let you do left foot braking either!
Of course braking gently is counter intuitive. And it also depends how manufacturers have set their system up.
I am genuinely surprised how people take EMBN vids at face value and don’t see it as marketing/product placement!?
Not all scenarios according to Audi in the early-90s.
I suspect that modern electronics are so much faster that the systems can be programmed to detect different conditions and work decently well. On top of that, the vast majority of drivers are probably not going to respond better than electronics when they are suddenly confronted by an emergency situation. We all like to fantasize about being driving gods but all the theories about cadence braking, locking wheels on gravel or snow, etc. get forgotten when someone pulls out in front of you and you stamp on that brake pedal.
I'm just waiting for traction control on my internal gearbox, with yaw sensor on the rear axle, all connected to the ABS. Then I'll buy into the system. 😉
For me, I find this (and so many other technologies seen on bikes now) as both fascinating and unappealing. The technology is amazing and clever, and moves things on.
However I'm both nor able or willing to afford the purchase and maintenance of the technology. I'm also happy with the function of my hardtail - I really appreciate that 'yesterdays' technology of great tyres, reliable and powerful brakes, and a fork to preserve my wrists is brilliant and I wouldn't be without them. Beyond then, I don't feel the need for these active technologies as I don't think they add as much 'gain' to my ride. Another example - I use a dropper post, but am middling about it's benefits.
The technology I do see me exploring and paying for in future is a gearbox frame....
Tjagain - I meant offroad bikes. My KTM Adventure has ABS, but you turn it off when off road as it cant cope off road. Basically it fails to stop the bike and keeps the wheel turning. Its faster to actually lock up and skid a bit when off road. Thats why they fit a switch to let you deactivate it.
I dont think there are any off road motorbikes with ABS as it doesn't work off road. Im talking about things like motocross bikes, trials bikes, that sort. Not like my adventure bike or the BMW version, those are great with ABS on the road, you turn it off when off road.
So given they dont work on off road motorbikes, how will they work on mountain bikes ?
We had a Polo that was near impossible to get the ABS to lock up on snow
That's probably to do with relative wheel speeds. If you can induce simultaneous lock in all four wheels then some ABS systems won't operate. Ditto gentle braking to lock the wheels
Our generation were (and still are) driving gods though, but the skills of later generations have lessened and the button no longer exists 🙂
There might have been a small amount of humour in there...if you disabled ABS in a modern car then practically every other safety system would struggle as well as some of the assistance systems. DSC, EBA, EBD all use ABS as does the hill start assist and downhill assist control.
The only one that is happy with you skidding (apart from hooligan-mode) is Roll Stability Control which induces understeer through a skid
Hopefully multi21 will correct any errors through over-simplification that are entirely of my making
I'm willing to bet, much like a lot of other electronic bike parts, motors etc.
- 2 year warranty
- no spare parts
It will end up in landfill.
Meanwhile, we'll see a bunch of youtube influencers telling us how great it is.
FunkyDunc
Re ABS in rally cars I’m not sure they banned ABS, more it’s a hinderance as it prevents being able to change weight distribution as easily / use brake balance effectively to steer the car
WRC did ban ABS, along with traction control, active suspension, active diffs etc around 2011.
Partly for costs, but also to tip the balance back in the favour of driver skill over tech.
As I posted earlier, it wasn't a hindrance, it was quicker which is why everyone used it.
We all like to fantasize about being driving gods but all the theories about cadence braking, locking wheels on gravel or snow, etc. get forgotten when someone pulls out in front of you and you stamp on that brake pedal.
That's the nub of it, I love a trip to the go-karts, and the Midget is a hoot on a wet roundabout in Mexico.
But present me with a long sweeping left hand bend on the A68 at Huntford in the dark understeering towards the crash barriers in a FWD car because I didn't realise quite how much of a corner it is. And I'll still just hold the wheel at almost full lock for long enough for my brain to run through the options of steering into it, tapping the brakes to transfer some weight to the front, getting on the throttle etc, and still decide naaaa I'll take my chances that it'll come back before I go into the barrier.
Everyone's a driving god in TOCA (another 90's reference).
I think late hard braking is a thing that only 2 groups of people do. 1. professional riders, and 2. absolute beginners. I think hard front braking into corners is a skill lots of "regular" MTBers could probs. brush up on. If ABS systems bring some confidence back into that, then that's a good thing.
So given they dont work on off road motorbikes, how will they work on mountain bikes ?
All depends on whether you believe they work on motorbikes I suppose and whether motorbike = MTB.
Only one way to find out though isn't there...
TJ
No steve. The could have grabbed a handful and stopped without fuss
Perhaps ? You were there on that occasion but overall what I notice is more that people have problems braking due to incorrect or poor technique and knowing where to brake (or not) and how to weight the bike not most often not the inability to not lock up. This seems more like panic braking something to be avoided ..??
This might be a situation where it may have helped but my experience is most braking issues it really won't help and if anything lead to worse situations**.
Didn't you say something earlier in the thread about people not spending time learning to brake?? (Might have been someone else but it doesn't matter really)
I do a lot of group rides with fellow geriatrics and I honestly find they broadly split into people who took time to learn how to brake and those that didn't.
One of the main reasons I see people braking badly or scared of brakes is actually not looking ahead enough and identifying where they brake and where they don't... that's not isolated though as the same not looking up often leads them to take a set of "micro lines" that ultimately end up with them in a crappy situation.
**At the simplest this is probably best described as if you can go round that berm/bend/rooty bit whatever with the brakes on you could definitely have done around with them off. Ultimately the issue is braking in the wrong place... which really brings me back to looking ahead and planning where and how you will brake and weighting the bike appropriately when you get there.
I think my point really is braking in general should be planned and anticipated and that ABS has little or no effect on that.
WRC did ban ABS, along with traction control, active suspension, active diffs etc around 2011.
Partly for costs, but also to tip the balance back in the favour of driver skill over tech.As I posted earlier, it wasn’t a hindrance, it was quicker which is why everyone used it.
Class B was also faster** as would have been Class S...
**faster right up to the point where people both drivers/co=pilots and spectators died...
Isn't TJ meant to be cycling through Wales at the mo ?, i'm surprised he's getting anywhere with all this pulling in every 20 mins to tap out a reply on his phone 😆
scotroutes
Full MemberThat’s the second time in a week that someone has referred to “resistance” to the introduction of suspension and disk brakes. I really don’t recall any of that.
There definitely were idiots that said disk brakes were a bad idea right up until fairly recently. I know, I was one.
There definitely were idiots that said disk brakes were a bad idea right up until fairly recently. I know, I was one.
To be fair, rim brakes do generally work. I'd not spec them as a preference, but my winter/commuter/tourer/SSCX bike has mini-V's and I've no real desire to change it.
However I do wonder if bikes will get to the point they become a bit boring as they sanitise the experience
Those bikes might, you'll still be able to buy bikes that don't have motors or ABS for enthusiasts.
Biggest problem with rim brakes (besides rain) is wearing out the rims periodically. I'm still riding some wheels that must be over a decade old. I've replaced the freehub body (old one cracked) and the nipples on the rear, but they are sill fine. Wouldn't have happened with rim brakes.
To be fair, rim brakes do generally work.
The last time I used rim brakes off-road was in 2003. I went out on a drizzly day with a guy called Fat Pete who was a rugby prop. Ploddingly slow uphill but pretty handy downhill. He was running Hayes HFX disk with 8" rotors, he'd usually have them smoking hot within a couple of minutes. So we started the singletrack descent with him leading the way when he suddenly decided to stop dead right in front of me. I had those XT rim brakes with the stupid parallelogram linkage thing and pulled on the lever as hard as I could but they just weren't up to the job. I tried to swerve around but there just wasn't room so my hand rammed straight into his arsecrack, which was soft and squishy like a big pillow, but also wet and clammy. I still feel ill every time I remember fisting Petey, I can still remember the feeling, it was disgusting.
Anyway, I went straight out after that ride and ordered some Hayes HFXs too. Then, on my first ride on them I fell over on a tight corner because what would have been a light feathering of my old rim brakes was enough to stop me dead on the HFXs. They were definitely powerful, but it was like a light-switch.
I have seen a pal crash because he wasn’t confident in using the front brake and locked up the rear.
I have crashed into a car because I was using my right hand to flick the V's at him, and he jammed the brakes on, and I locked up the rear brake because I only had one hand on the bars. ABS would probably have helped me there 😆
Anyway, I definitely recall resistance to suspension in the 90's, because it was heavy and slowed you up the hills and the only people who needed it were chumps who couldn't pick a line. Steve Peat won the 93 National DH series on a fully rigid bike, you know. A frivolous fad that will blow over in no time.
I've experimented off road with my KTM motorcycle (which has off-road tyre fitted), tried it on gravel/dirt/crap with the ABS on and with it turned off.
Switched On, the bike failed to stop. Switched Off, it stopped, just like a mountain bike currently does off road.