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In the first case, if someone is incorrectly afraid of the front brake then they wont use it in a panic/emeregency. Yes they wouldn’t have skidded the rear but how much extra stopping power would they have got out of an ABS rear? enough to save them?
In the second, how hard did you brake (with your regular brakes) for the person behind to be unable to match you? If he was just wanging the brakes on full power with ABS without the correct technique of heel dropping and bracing (not locking) his elbows – and ideally, the seat being down to aid both of these – then the greatest automatic brakes in the world would do naff all apart from send him into you head first rather than wheel first…
On your last point – yes, some of us do practise. I think, depending on how you define it.
This ^^
That’s the second time in a week that someone has referred to “resistance” to the introduction of suspension and disk brakes. I really don’t recall any of that.
Ah but they did try and bring in automatic suspension perhaps 2yrs ago ... the stuff that magically could tell if you wanted to pre-load or not... which of course failed for anything half interesting but was an extra weight for XC I assume the bikes fitted with it just turned it off as we didn't hear of it again.
This will fail for the same reasons .. namely how does it magically know when I want to lock up the rear wheel or pull an endo ??
If they had abs they wouldnt have been scared to use the front brake. Abs on motorcycles also stops stoppies
If they had abs they wouldnt have been scared to use the front brake.
and as pointed out would just have gone OTB into you instead
Abs on motorcycles also stops stoppies
Which is why it can't work on MTB.. how the heck do you get round switchbacks if you can't lock the rear or stoppie ??
If they had abs they wouldnt have been scared to use the front brake. Abs on motorcycles also stops stoppies
I wasnt aware of this, I havent watched that embn video, going by the op's link it seemed like each brake was a separate system.
Taking a guess at how an anti stoppie feature would work in a technical sense on a road going 2 wheeler*, I do wonder how that can be applied to an mtb off road where sudden abrupt changes in terrain will greatly alter the bikes pitch and can cause either wheel to momentarily leave the ground, deliberately or accidently.
*it must know that the back wheel has or is just about to leave the ground or the bike has suddenly rotated forwards.
Both of these thing happen quite a bit on slow/medium speed descending on technical terrain where I am well in control of the bike. I certainly wouldn't want a computer preventing my front brake use until the bike levels out again.
No steve. The could have grabbed a handful and stopped without fuss
I havent watched that embn video...
... I do wonder how that can be applied to an mtb off road where sudden abrupt changes in terrain will greatly alter the bikes pitch and can cause either wheel to momentarily leave the ground, deliberately or accidently.
...Both of these thing happen quite a bit on slow/medium speed descending on technical terrain where I am well in control of the bike. I certainly wouldn’t want a computer preventing my front brake use until the bike levels out again.
At 5.30 in the video he rides some quite tech terrain and at 6.00 says its probably the most control he's ever had on that bit of trail.
It has a couple of modes for different riding (and an off position)
So, can anyone name an off-road motorcycle that uses ABS ?
Motocross, Enduro, Trials, plain old Greenlaning. I dont think any of them use it. On road, sure. Off road not.
BMW and KTM adventure bikes do.
The could have grabbed a handful and stopped without fuss
Well, they could've grabbed a handful and not locked up before impact, but whether they'd have stopped in time isn't solely in whether they had ABS. Distance, speed, traction and reaction are all still factors.
In most situations, ABS isn't going to stop a crash, it might reduce the velocity of some crashes, but IME, most aren't simply a brake/traction equation - they're a distance, time, angle, traction, reaction problem,.
I have no doubt that, as tested in the above article, and/or if you're racing and want to go pell mell into corners to gain time, or that for some reason you're throttle happy on your e-bike and the total momentum of the thing is too much for normal brakes, it's a thing...but for clockwork bikes in most general riding is it still a thing?
Marketing department has got you now 🤣 Prepare to gladly open your wallets as you're swept up by the excitement.
The Vees vs disks debate was particularly enthusiastic.
On touring bike sites they're still claiming that canti brakes are the best. I remember those ABS cantis - was it not just a cam that made your brakes flutter on-off-a-bit-on-off-a-bit? I suspect there'll be more to these new ones, but don't feel a burning urge to spaff my wages on them.
Depends what you want in life doesn’t it?
I can see the fun in not having to think about braking, just pull the lever as hard as you like and the bike will stop quickly
However I do wonder if bikes will get to the point they become a bit boring as they sanitise the experience
Same with cars - the most fun cars are the ones with no abs, no reaction, no aids. Wouldn’t be the quickest, but certainly more fun
I would look at any YouTube channel for an unbiased view
Re ABS in rally cars I’m not sure they banned ABS, more it’s a hinderance as it prevents being able to change weight distribution as easily / use brake balance effectively to steer the car
[b]Rapid Rise[/b] 9Sp XTR was the APEX of shifting
Ftfy
I mean there are roadies out there still arguing about disc vs rim brakes and they’ve had years of seeing them work well on MTBs. So I see this ABS getting a lot of push back from “real mountain bikers”. LOL
Up to the rider really isn't it. For a rider who just wants to stop as quickly and easily as possible in all scenarios (road, wet road, off road) then ABS makes sense, just as it does for the car driver.
For those that don't want it because they don't like it then don't use it, nothing is making you and I can't see it becoming compulsory on bikes somehow where currently any sort of brake is legal as long as it is a brake (coaster, anti, v, disc etc,.)
In a lot/all of scenarios the ABS braked bike will be the better option in any testing. In very few/none would the non ABS bike be better.
For a rider who just wants to stop as quickly and easily as possible in all scenarios (road, wet road, off road) then ABS makes sense, just as it does for the car driver
Not all scenarios according to Audi in the early-90s. Some (all?) of their cars had a switch to turn ABS off (definitely in 1991-92 - Audi 80 and 100 quattro). It was meant for snowy conditions where you stopped quicker with locked wheels due to a built-up wedge of snow under the tyres.
Our generation were (and still are) driving gods though, but the skills of later generations have lessened and the button no longer exists 🙂
Our generation were (and still are) driving gods though, but the skills of later generations have lessened and the button no longer exists 🙂
Not quite how it works. On snow if you gently squeeze a brake pedal you can create a lock up and avoid the ABS kicking in (not all car brands necessarily) We had a Polo that was near impossible to get the ABS to lock up on snow, but then they don’t let you do left foot braking either!
Of course braking gently is counter intuitive. And it also depends how manufacturers have set their system up.
I am genuinely surprised how people take EMBN vids at face value and don’t see it as marketing/product placement!?
Not all scenarios according to Audi in the early-90s.
I suspect that modern electronics are so much faster that the systems can be programmed to detect different conditions and work decently well. On top of that, the vast majority of drivers are probably not going to respond better than electronics when they are suddenly confronted by an emergency situation. We all like to fantasize about being driving gods but all the theories about cadence braking, locking wheels on gravel or snow, etc. get forgotten when someone pulls out in front of you and you stamp on that brake pedal.
I'm just waiting for traction control on my internal gearbox, with yaw sensor on the rear axle, all connected to the ABS. Then I'll buy into the system. 😉
For me, I find this (and so many other technologies seen on bikes now) as both fascinating and unappealing. The technology is amazing and clever, and moves things on.
However I'm both nor able or willing to afford the purchase and maintenance of the technology. I'm also happy with the function of my hardtail - I really appreciate that 'yesterdays' technology of great tyres, reliable and powerful brakes, and a fork to preserve my wrists is brilliant and I wouldn't be without them. Beyond then, I don't feel the need for these active technologies as I don't think they add as much 'gain' to my ride. Another example - I use a dropper post, but am middling about it's benefits.
The technology I do see me exploring and paying for in future is a gearbox frame....
Tjagain - I meant offroad bikes. My KTM Adventure has ABS, but you turn it off when off road as it cant cope off road. Basically it fails to stop the bike and keeps the wheel turning. Its faster to actually lock up and skid a bit when off road. Thats why they fit a switch to let you deactivate it.
I dont think there are any off road motorbikes with ABS as it doesn't work off road. Im talking about things like motocross bikes, trials bikes, that sort. Not like my adventure bike or the BMW version, those are great with ABS on the road, you turn it off when off road.
So given they dont work on off road motorbikes, how will they work on mountain bikes ?
We had a Polo that was near impossible to get the ABS to lock up on snow
That's probably to do with relative wheel speeds. If you can induce simultaneous lock in all four wheels then some ABS systems won't operate. Ditto gentle braking to lock the wheels
Our generation were (and still are) driving gods though, but the skills of later generations have lessened and the button no longer exists 🙂
There might have been a small amount of humour in there...if you disabled ABS in a modern car then practically every other safety system would struggle as well as some of the assistance systems. DSC, EBA, EBD all use ABS as does the hill start assist and downhill assist control.
The only one that is happy with you skidding (apart from hooligan-mode) is Roll Stability Control which induces understeer through a skid
Hopefully multi21 will correct any errors through over-simplification that are entirely of my making
I'm willing to bet, much like a lot of other electronic bike parts, motors etc.
- 2 year warranty
- no spare parts
It will end up in landfill.
Meanwhile, we'll see a bunch of youtube influencers telling us how great it is.
FunkyDunc
Re ABS in rally cars I’m not sure they banned ABS, more it’s a hinderance as it prevents being able to change weight distribution as easily / use brake balance effectively to steer the car
WRC did ban ABS, along with traction control, active suspension, active diffs etc around 2011.
Partly for costs, but also to tip the balance back in the favour of driver skill over tech.
As I posted earlier, it wasn't a hindrance, it was quicker which is why everyone used it.
We all like to fantasize about being driving gods but all the theories about cadence braking, locking wheels on gravel or snow, etc. get forgotten when someone pulls out in front of you and you stamp on that brake pedal.
That's the nub of it, I love a trip to the go-karts, and the Midget is a hoot on a wet roundabout in Mexico.
But present me with a long sweeping left hand bend on the A68 at Huntford in the dark understeering towards the crash barriers in a FWD car because I didn't realise quite how much of a corner it is. And I'll still just hold the wheel at almost full lock for long enough for my brain to run through the options of steering into it, tapping the brakes to transfer some weight to the front, getting on the throttle etc, and still decide naaaa I'll take my chances that it'll come back before I go into the barrier.
Everyone's a driving god in TOCA (another 90's reference).
I think late hard braking is a thing that only 2 groups of people do. 1. professional riders, and 2. absolute beginners. I think hard front braking into corners is a skill lots of "regular" MTBers could probs. brush up on. If ABS systems bring some confidence back into that, then that's a good thing.
So given they dont work on off road motorbikes, how will they work on mountain bikes ?
All depends on whether you believe they work on motorbikes I suppose and whether motorbike = MTB.
Only one way to find out though isn't there...
TJ
No steve. The could have grabbed a handful and stopped without fuss
Perhaps ? You were there on that occasion but overall what I notice is more that people have problems braking due to incorrect or poor technique and knowing where to brake (or not) and how to weight the bike not most often not the inability to not lock up. This seems more like panic braking something to be avoided ..??
This might be a situation where it may have helped but my experience is most braking issues it really won't help and if anything lead to worse situations**.
Didn't you say something earlier in the thread about people not spending time learning to brake?? (Might have been someone else but it doesn't matter really)
I do a lot of group rides with fellow geriatrics and I honestly find they broadly split into people who took time to learn how to brake and those that didn't.
One of the main reasons I see people braking badly or scared of brakes is actually not looking ahead enough and identifying where they brake and where they don't... that's not isolated though as the same not looking up often leads them to take a set of "micro lines" that ultimately end up with them in a crappy situation.
**At the simplest this is probably best described as if you can go round that berm/bend/rooty bit whatever with the brakes on you could definitely have done around with them off. Ultimately the issue is braking in the wrong place... which really brings me back to looking ahead and planning where and how you will brake and weighting the bike appropriately when you get there.
I think my point really is braking in general should be planned and anticipated and that ABS has little or no effect on that.
WRC did ban ABS, along with traction control, active suspension, active diffs etc around 2011.
Partly for costs, but also to tip the balance back in the favour of driver skill over tech.As I posted earlier, it wasn’t a hindrance, it was quicker which is why everyone used it.
Class B was also faster** as would have been Class S...
**faster right up to the point where people both drivers/co=pilots and spectators died...
Isn't TJ meant to be cycling through Wales at the mo ?, i'm surprised he's getting anywhere with all this pulling in every 20 mins to tap out a reply on his phone 😆
scotroutes
Full MemberThat’s the second time in a week that someone has referred to “resistance” to the introduction of suspension and disk brakes. I really don’t recall any of that.
There definitely were idiots that said disk brakes were a bad idea right up until fairly recently. I know, I was one.
There definitely were idiots that said disk brakes were a bad idea right up until fairly recently. I know, I was one.
To be fair, rim brakes do generally work. I'd not spec them as a preference, but my winter/commuter/tourer/SSCX bike has mini-V's and I've no real desire to change it.
However I do wonder if bikes will get to the point they become a bit boring as they sanitise the experience
Those bikes might, you'll still be able to buy bikes that don't have motors or ABS for enthusiasts.
Biggest problem with rim brakes (besides rain) is wearing out the rims periodically. I'm still riding some wheels that must be over a decade old. I've replaced the freehub body (old one cracked) and the nipples on the rear, but they are sill fine. Wouldn't have happened with rim brakes.
To be fair, rim brakes do generally work.
The last time I used rim brakes off-road was in 2003. I went out on a drizzly day with a guy called Fat Pete who was a rugby prop. Ploddingly slow uphill but pretty handy downhill. He was running Hayes HFX disk with 8" rotors, he'd usually have them smoking hot within a couple of minutes. So we started the singletrack descent with him leading the way when he suddenly decided to stop dead right in front of me. I had those XT rim brakes with the stupid parallelogram linkage thing and pulled on the lever as hard as I could but they just weren't up to the job. I tried to swerve around but there just wasn't room so my hand rammed straight into his arsecrack, which was soft and squishy like a big pillow, but also wet and clammy. I still feel ill every time I remember fisting Petey, I can still remember the feeling, it was disgusting.
Anyway, I went straight out after that ride and ordered some Hayes HFXs too. Then, on my first ride on them I fell over on a tight corner because what would have been a light feathering of my old rim brakes was enough to stop me dead on the HFXs. They were definitely powerful, but it was like a light-switch.
I have seen a pal crash because he wasn’t confident in using the front brake and locked up the rear.
I have crashed into a car because I was using my right hand to flick the V's at him, and he jammed the brakes on, and I locked up the rear brake because I only had one hand on the bars. ABS would probably have helped me there 😆
Anyway, I definitely recall resistance to suspension in the 90's, because it was heavy and slowed you up the hills and the only people who needed it were chumps who couldn't pick a line. Steve Peat won the 93 National DH series on a fully rigid bike, you know. A frivolous fad that will blow over in no time.
I've experimented off road with my KTM motorcycle (which has off-road tyre fitted), tried it on gravel/dirt/crap with the ABS on and with it turned off.
Switched On, the bike failed to stop. Switched Off, it stopped, just like a mountain bike currently does off road.
Are you skidding to a stop on your mountain bike?
Trimix
Free MemberI’ve experimented off road with my KTM motorcycle (which has off-road tyre fitted), tried it on gravel/dirt/crap with the ABS on and with it turned off.
Switched On, the bike failed to stop. Switched Off, it stopped, just like a mountain bike currently does off road.
This dude put some numbers to Triumph/BMW's systems here:
K, no. But when I raced motorcycle enduros I would feel the grip and basically moderate the lever/pedal action so it went from lock to open / skid to not skid. Like min ABS.
After years of riding / competing you could do this pretty well. Sure, it would go wrong sometimes, as it does on a mountain bike.
That was fine on the various off road motorbikes I had/currently have. They are lighter competition machines (Honda XR400, CRM250, KX250, KTM525, Montessa 250, Bultaco 250) so you can do that sort of the same as you can on your mountain bike.
But is a different story on my KTM 990 Adventure bike, which weighs over 200kg.
I can see the fun in not having to think about braking, just pull the lever as hard as you like and the bike will stop quickly
However I do wonder if bikes will get to the point they become a bit boring as they sanitise the experience
Very much ^^this^^ for me. The "Risk vs Skill" trade off of fully controlling both of your own brakes is part of fun on an MTB (IMO) and as the eeeeb fanbois always seem to tell us fun is the most important thing on a mountain bike, all other considerations are secondary.
As ever, some see any new tech on a bicycle as wonderful and without any potential downsides. Any resistance/rejection is just people being luddites, the reality is a bit more nuanced than that I think.
Followed to the logical conclusion once all the tech has been added to bicycles it makes them entirely redundant, once it accelerates/brakes and steers itself perfectly reducing the effort for the meat sack onboard to zero, you might as well be sat in your Tesla watching netflix and ignoring your surroundings...
That video was interesting. Basically as a good / advanced rider he was able to stop with NO ABS better than with ABS on the worst off road surface. By a margin of 17%.
Trimix
Free MemberThat video was interesting. Basically as a good / advanced rider he was able to stop with NO ABS better than with ABS on the worst off road surface. By a margin of 17%.
Best decel was with ABS in every case wasn't it?
Not intending to say your point about the KTM was invalid BTW, it could just be the surface they tested with, or that these two bikes have a better ABS system than the KTM etc
As ever, some see any new tech on a bicycle as wonderful and without any potential downsides. Any resistance/rejection is just people being luddites
I think people basically fall into 2 camps.
1. New technology is exactly what I want and therefore is to be welcomed and will herald a new age of wonder and improvement.
2. New technology is of no interest to me and will therefore spoil the sport beyond recognition if taken up by the mass market and I will be forced to take up embroidery against my will.
Sure, it would go wrong sometimes, as it does on a mountain bike
That's the whole point of abs isn't it, it helps when things do going wrong.
People don't drive around in their cars triggering the abs every time they apply the brakes.
I fall in to camp 1.5
I don't want it on my bikes now but would be quite happy for it to be on the wife's bike. If it means my friends can be safer it's a good thing, if I can keep up with them and they have assistance, even better.
I use ABF. Anti-lock Braking Finger.
I pump the brakes through their cycle which seems to slow me better, though these are shimano, so it probably the grabby effect thats helping there.
Are you skidding to a stop on your mountain bike?
