[Closed] Hardtail Battering Me

A quick change is to go for a tyre insert on the rear. Will allow you to run lower pressures without the same risk of punctures, and also not having to try a plus setup (which might compromise you in winter unless you swap things around)

Do some cross training, or just squats and press ups.

What size tyres and rims are you currently using? I have 29mm rims and 2.6" tyres which mean I can run low pressure (around 20psi) for extra comfort. However at the end of the day it's a hardtail and will never be that comfy.

Higher volume tyres at lower pressure with something like a Rimpact pro in the rear might make life a bit more comfortable.

But nothing will get close to some real rear suspension.

I have a Whippet and really didn't get on with it on 29 x 2.4" tyres - or rather my old battered and out of condition body didn't.

Best thing I did was fit 27.5" plus wheels and tyres. Made such a difference that I now only run rigid (as the Whippet is now) and my main HT on plus wheels and tyres.

Doesn't make a huge difference on tarmac as the 2.8" width allows for less sticky rubber.

Full suspension is of course a step up again in comfort but you need to decide what is possible for the money you want to spend. Unfortunately plus tyres and wheels are not that popular any more so you could end up with something you can't sell.

Apologies for not tagging with individual names…I can never figure it out

Masher: Oh inserts…fair shout. I’ll look into that

Jimmy: I run about 3-4 times a week (which has definitely helped), and do resistance training 1-2 times a week

dc: I think they’re 25mm (inner) rims with 2.3” tyres. You also make a fair point re. it’ll never be comfy…perhaps my Edit is warping my expectations

Twonks: absolutely…I can’t even find plus tyres at a reasonable price/distance

Something else just popped into my head - if you just want one Rimpact then Hunt sell them as singles

Ride a lot faster so you 'float' over stuff, drop your heels and really get your upper body down so your knees are actually fully bent. Slam your seat post down in the seat tube so your seat is fully out of the way when dropped.

It can feel like your knees are bent but you can always get lower which allows the frame to move up/around more.

N+1

Suspension seat post. You can even get dropper ones now.
Essential.

Rusty: I suffer from chronic d*ck fingers so that’ll never work out in the long run

QWERTY: I’m at N[MAX] so it’s a one out, one in scenario

I'd drop a 2.5 tyre on it and run it at your weight in kg/5 psi. If you've already got that sort of pressure, you probably need a different bike

Practice riding the trails smoother even if this means riding slower.

Also if possible, try to find a local trail with a smallish table top and practice clearing it, as smoothly as you can.

Once you have improved on the above, you should be better at picking a smooth line even if this means jumping some sections (just like a table top) and smooth is fast.

Can you ride with someone who is better than you, this way you'll be able to follow their líne and see the speed they hit there trail. Even ask them to assess your technique.

We're all still trying to get better or faster on the bike, it's an incremental thing. The main thing is to keep trying and have fun.

It's a hardtail. That's what happens.

99.9999999999999999999% of the time I'll always take the HB160 over the BFe, and the rest of the time I wish I'd taken the HB.

I'm too old for that shit.

This video covers pretty much what I was talking about.

If you are riding heavy or picking rough lines then it really doesn't matter what tyres, or inserts or saddle you use, you will get beaten up by the trail.

Maybe try some skills coaching?

Before I go down the route of getting a shortish travel FS, is there anything I’m missing?

Because you'll ride those trails and then hum and haw and start to think short travel maybe is too short and you're still being bumped around.

Go longer travel, 160F&R as a minimum. or maybe 180F/160+R

Once you have improved on the above, you should be better at picking a smooth line even if this means jumping some sections (just like a table top) and smooth is fast.

I ride mine a fair bit and would say this is the best advice. You can't (well you can if you're good enough) just hammer through trails like you do on a big bike. Picking smoother lines is 100% the best thing you can do and then transfers that thinking to the big bike and i bet you will be faster.

As for hammering your joints I think you just need to accept to a degree that will happen on a hardtail.

Bigger tyres?

I went from 29" 2.3 to 29" 2.6 on my help Dave and it made a surprising large difference to comfort on longer rockier days out

Bigger and plusher tyres do help. Certain brands are 'stiff', but pop my Gomas, XR4s or Butchers on and I can feel the difference.
Look closely at tyre pressures too. As ever, a balancing act.

Finally - part of the fun I have on a HT is picking lines, working with the bike and trail, the "thinking rider".

Sure I can hop on my lads big FS bikes and just batter down faster, but is it any less fun? It's different fun.

I’ve pondered going with plus tyres, however I have a preconception they’ll be draggy on the 2-3 mile tarmac roads to and from the woods.

All of 15 mins?

I had the same thing. My 29er HT was fast and climbed well. I wanted more grip and comfort so upped the tyre size and added a rimpact. Was better but now and then I’d hit something and it reminded me that I was on a hard tail. It also got heavy on climbs and the rims took a beating.

Sold it. Bought a 130mm travel full suspension. Glad I did.

+1 for a rimpact rear. such a huge difference

I recently did a day at a new venue and got battered around a lot, dropped Tyre pressure a bit which helped, but still it was hard work.

After musing about it I came to the conclusion it was down to braking more: on my (similar) local trails I know what's coming and where I can brake, and also where it is important to brake.

On brand new trails I was dragging brakes a lot more as I didn't know what was coming up and I'm not confident enough to ride fully committed on a first run!

Maybe worth looking at where/how you are breaking?

I'd also look at fork setup: a bit of playing about here can pay off a lot on a hardtail IME.

Ultimately, hardtails are rough, and that's part of their unique appeal 😂

Another vote for going up in tyre size - as Martin said up there - I notice the diff going from 2.3 to 2.6. I'll use the 2.6s when I go to the rougher peaks but the 2.3 on local bridleways. Sure the 2.6s are a bit more draggy on tarmac but way better as soon as you get off road.

I’ve pondered going with plus tyres, however I have a preconception they’ll be draggy on the 2-3 mile tarmac roads to and from the woods.

Depending on what plus tyres you're running, they can actually roll surprisingly quickly on tarmac and faster than lower volume tyres off road. My main hardtail is a Sonder Tramsitter running 2.8s front and rear, it definitely takes the all the rough edges off small to medium impacts.

Sure you can improve line choice etc, but ultimately if you're riding over, say, a continuous section of corrugated trail at speed, there's only so much you can do.Or buy a Trek Full Stache, full sus with 29" x 3.0 tyres, you'll barely notice anything smaller than a minor planet on the trail.

A few options described above are useful.

I run 2.3 29er tyres at 19 or 20 psi in the rear on my chameleon. 30mm internal rims. The new chameleon seems to ride more forgivingly than the predecessor for reasons I don't fully understand.

Rekon 2.8s are easily available from r2bike and maybe bikester. They roll well and are light. IIRC I run these at ~ 17psi on the rear with 35mm internal rims.

Have been lower pressures on both these but have come back up a bit. <span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">I'm using these both with rimpact. This, in conjunction with the pressure increase, is more to look after the rims. I misjudged a root gap that was a bit of a stretch when tired and killed a rim so that's what prompted me to fit them rather than for any modifications to feel though there is a detectable change in that.</span>

I use a topeak gauge to check/adjust pressures. I average about 72kg and ride rooty flinty trails a lot. Fox 36 up front so the rear does get a fair knocking about. I try to ride with a bit of mechanical sympathy but we all get tired and make mistakes.

I'd imagine pressures and inserts may help with confidence to just push through and ride a bit quicker. The faster you go the more you'll skim over the top of stuff rather than picking up in every ripple but I can't give a lot of advice on that. 😀

Being clipped in helps with hardtail on bumpy trails IME.

Being clipped in helps with hardtail on bumpy trails IME.

Agreed. Standard advice of light hands heavy feet is fine on 'standard HT trails™', but only goes so far in chunder at speed. Being clipped in allows you to ride lighter with ones feet which does help, but allows you to keep your feet on the pedals.

There only so far you can go with a hardtail though. Compliant frame, compliant wheel, big soft tyre and an insert all make small differences. Id argue that a decent fork is more important on a HT that sees fast chunder, since what comes into the chassis by the back wheel starts to affect the front and it needs to deal with that too.

Otherwise, clipless, riding light and HT skills set will help, as will fitness, but you'll still be battered more than an FS, and mostly likely be slower still.

I ride two steel hard tails with similar geo. The main difference between comfort on rough trails is:
Dh wheelset
Wider tyres and Dh casing rear tyre (ditched the insert as I was still getting punctures)
36 vs 34 fork.
It makes for a heavy bike but it’s fun.

I empathise entirely with the OP's experience. The best thing I did on my Solaris was to change the 29 x 2.3 tyres (with rear insert) to a set of 27.5 x 2.8 (no inserts) and to drop the pressures right down (12-14psi). So much more comfortable and lots more fun. Barely any slower. All good!

Fwiw I find 29 2.5 front and 27.5 2.8 rear to suit me best.

Cod liver oil.

My main hardtail is a Sonder Tramsitter running 2.8s front and rear, it definitely takes the all the rough edges off small to medium impacts.

same. Tubeless obv. And I often do at least several miles of road to and from hardtail rides (like to go from the door and get bored with too much repetition). But I think you just have to accept that you're going to be a few mph slower on the road than a roadbike, and likewise are going to get rattled more off road than on a full suss, skills/fatter tires or lack of notwithstanding. World doesn't end.

I had a hardtail built up for about a year, it was a lovely thing, slack with 150mm travel fork, rode really well, but a few hours after each ride I just felt physically battered with aching muscles. Maybe it's because I'm getting older, or the trails I ride are often quite rough and rooty. In the end, when stock became available, I swapped all the parts over on to a shortish travel (130mm) FS Trail bike, and feel much better after a ride.

as above, have you got width in the frame to allow you to go from a 29er rear wheel, to a 650b with a half fat tyre?

Friend of mine runs his Chameleon with a 29er front and 650b+ rear and thinks it great.

Personally, I went for the short-travel FS and it has been great. I've always had hardtails (steel, alu, carbon) but as I got into my 40s I found I was increasingly sore the day after a ride and was taking longer to recover. The FS has helped my back and joints a lot more than larger-volume tyres etc. Unfortunately it's also the expensive option.

I’m too old for that shit.

+1

Sold my Cotic HT frame a couple of years ago and I now ride an Orange Stage 4 as my "little" bike, it has 110mm rear and 130mm front travel and it's faster and more fun than the Cotic was almost everywhere.

Also, it cost me about the same for the secondhand frame & shock as it did for the HT frame new.

See what secondhand frames are about? But make sure they are known to pedal well.

Cod liver oil.

😀

I can always tell when the trails dry out properly - my joints feel like they aged about 100 extra years and I dig out the CL Oil. (Oh, and dust off the best bike, the one with 140mm suspension at the back.)

The reality is that after few rides on the hardpacked trails my joints get used to it. And a few weeks later the trails normally return to their sloppy, boggy condition. It rarely stays dry all year..

50 with aching joints, going out on the HT tomorrow, with 26" tubed 2.3's - will see how it goes, haven't ridden much over the past couple of years

When I first built my rigid scandal it had maxxis 29er 2.3 inch tyres on. I found it a bit harsh.

I built some new wheels with stans flow and put schwalbe 29er nobby nics on which are 2.6 inch wide. They've made such a difference to comfort and traction and I don't find them draggy.

I'm just getting the bike ready for King Alfred's way and have put the maxxis minion ss back on. It is quicker on gravel but slower over rough technical stuff.

Before you swop it for a fs bike, try some bigger rubber on it.

I went for the short-travel FS and it has been great. I’ve always had hardtails (steel, alu, carbon) but as I got into my 40s I found I was increasingly sore the day after a ride and was taking longer to recover. The FS has helped my back and joints a lot more than larger-volume tyres etc.

This was me @ 50 with a dodgy disc. Gone from a custom 27.5 hard tail to a short travel 29er FS 100r/110f Carbonda FM936). It's made a world of difference to: traction, comfort & recovery.

Coil fork, 2.6 rear tyre (I use eliminator).

I find lowering the stem helps quite a bit on a hardtail. Moves your weight forward and lets you "ride the fork" and take some of the hits away from your legs. Give it a shot if you've got some spacers under that stem!

It will batter you, it's a hardtail, that's what they do. Try all the things posted on the thread, but the answer to this is a short travel FS really.

2.6 with insert in the rear. Thudbusterr sus seatpost. Looks ugly, heavy but it's pretty comfy for a ht.

I wonder if the squaretaper BB softens things up too?

Hi all

Many thanks for your comments and feedback.

I completely appreciate that hardtails do tend to batter the rider, but I’m wanting to take the edge off the onslaught.

I’ll probably lower the stem while looking for a wide 27.5” rear and go from there…however if I see a short travel fs that’ll accommodate all of the HT components and pedals well, I’ll probably need to get the domestic boss some flowers.

Thanks again

Hi all,

Just thought I'd give a little update in case my post becomes relevant to someone in the future.

I looked online for a shortish travel FS...absolutely nothing that tickled my fancy, not one ticked enough boxes.

So instead I purchased some 29" Hunt Trail Wide V2 wheels and 2x 2.6" tyres.

My first ride was yesterday....what an absolute riot!! Most fun I've had on a bike in years. On bigger drops obviously made minimal difference, but they certainly took the edge off small stuff like root/rock gardens etc.

Sooo yeah, big volume tyres FTW

Thanks all for your input, enjoy!

Sooo yeah, big volume tyres FTW

Don't tell all the steel is real crew...

Loved my old Ragley Mmmmbop, but aluminium frames can be harsh and knacker your legs.

Steel or Ti are way more comfortable.

A FS would also likely cure the problem, but they $$$ to buy and $$$ to maintain.

matt_outandabout
Full Member
Don’t tell all the steel is real crew…

Just imagine big tyres and steel - mind. blown.

Just imagine big tyres and steel – mind. blown.

Or a suspension seat post.

"Or a suspension seat post."

Stand up! 😉

I've written some ramblings about big wheels and steel etc over here:

https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/gnarly-silly-fun-pointless-new-hardtail-ordered/page/2/

I remain clueless as to which elements are making the difference but drops to flat definitely sting the ankles less on the new bike and if I'm landing on flat tarmac I'm not sure the bigger wheel can be making a difference (similar tyres) so it's the fork or frame or both.

I find, in order:

1. Tyres and pressures
2. Seat post - 27.2 in flexible material please.
3. Saddle.
4. Handlebars and grips.
5. Frame material and design/specifications
6. Shoes.

Matt +1.

I'm about to follow my own advice after breaking my FS recently and relying on my HT for a couple of weeks out of its normal seasonal use.

Bigger tyres after being battered to F!

I’m not sure the bigger wheel can be making a difference (similar tyres)

youve got ~10% more diameter - so about the same increase in "air volume" within the tyre, which is what is providing the spring in your rear suspension.

That assumes you are running the same pressure, if you have gone to a lower pressure to get the same rolling feel/grip, this changes things even further.

I experienced the same problems, solved it with a Crane Creek Thudbuster seat post. Less expensive than a FS change over and you can tune it with the supplied elasomister inserts.
I was sceptical to start with but it proved a game changer. Include some of the advice above as well, higher volume tyres & insets.

"youve got ~10% more diameter – so about the same increase in “air volume” within the tyre, which is what is providing the spring in your rear suspension."

But does that change things? The force applied by an air spring is the pressure x piston area and in this case the piston area is the contact patch. On a larger wheel the contact patch growth will increase proportionately with the wheel diameter as the contact patch is pressed towards the rim, so that will negate any reduction to the rate that the tyre pressure increases due to it being a larger volume air spring.

I'm actually running Rimpacts in these tyres, as before, although Rimpact Pro in the back now.