[Closed] Green lanes in Yorkshire Dales National Park - your debt to the trail riders

Good point.

here here. Trimix +1.

I wish more people understood this complex issue.

However, I give it T-10min for someone to come along and tell us all 'Moto-x' riders destroy the routes we love. Shame they cant see the bigger picture.

Nick,

think you've been misguided and you have been given a pack of fibs by someone. Take any [b][u]one[/b][/u] of your routes listed and tell me specifically what the TRF did, what DMMO application they put in, to turn it from a footpath to what is now a bridleway.

I know every route on that list and none of them as far as I can see. I have worked on the research on some of them too and so know the historical documents.

come on.......

C

(the "Coach Road". "Coach" FFS).

🙄

Can't comment on the dales. Can comment on where I now live. Off road motor bikes have utterly screwed a number of trails nearby. The riders have zero respect for other trail users and very little knowledge of how or when to avoid sensitive areas. Their riding has led to problems for cyclists as many people don't distinguish between pedal and petrol. They also seem to feel some kinship to mountain bikers. It is not mutual. Motor bikes have no place on the trails IMO.

So motorbikes apparently created bridleways, which they're not allowed to use, in the late 80s which would be 20 years after the legal right for cyclists to use bridleways was passed in 1968?
Ok, or am I misunderstanding something somewhere?

Motor bikes have no place on the trails IMO

You'll just have to live with it - tough

There's just as many people out there [if not more] that are of the opinion that push bikes have no place on the trails either.
They probably find it quite amusing to sit back and watch all the various [non walking] groups trying to have each other banned

Bit of a toss up today between the KTM or the Gasgas puddle jumper

Im off to fire up the Montessa now for some snow action 🙂

Its a shame that even on this forum some people still cant share the trails.

Sharing means leaving something in good condition for the next purpose. A lot of mtbers have experienced the reults of mxers ripping trails to shreds - hence the reluctance to wholeheartedly welcome them.

So motorbikes apparently created bridleways

aP. when cyclists gained the right to use bridleways in 1968 the above list of trails werent given bridleway rights. The TRF researched historic rights on these and used these to claim vehicular access. Without this effort and use they might still be footpaths so even though we're allowed on bridle ways we couldn't use these. As well as paperwork you need evidence if use to have/keep them open.

Sharing means leaving something in good condition for the next purpose. A lot of mtbers have experienced the reults of mxers ripping trails to shreds - hence the reluctance to wholeheartedly welcome them.

wwaswas went back home for the first time in two years yesterday and can't believe the damage MTBs have now done on my old trails. Careful using that argument lest it is used against us.

ChrisE - you. known NIMBY. So, in the same vein, Not In My Thread. Off you trot elsewhere please. see how you like it.

to turn it from a footpath to what is now a [u]bridleway[/u].

Can't see the relevance - if TRF assisted in getting it from footpath into [u]any[/u] higher classification, then they improved the lot of cyclists.

Also bearing in mind the work that they did on settling the rights to access on ORPA's/UCR's, the vast majority of which the cycling community had no knowledge of (as they were not on maps) and which the public authorities to this day challenge as having any "right" to access other than pedestrian.

Technically, of course, I'd point out that that you can't turn a footpath into a bridleway on the basis of historical evidence anyway - its been a bridleway all along, you just change how its officially recorded on the definitive map 😉

sharing means means leaving something in good condition for the next purpose.

I agree that this is a dangerous argument when used by MTBers; where I live (a very popular MTBing, horse riding and walking area) the amount of trail erosion as a result of MTBs has been very noticeable in the last 2 or 3 years (think 2ft wide singletrack now 12ft wide mud hole!). I am prepared to walk through these quagmires with my boots on but a lot of recreational walkers just look at the tyre tracks and proclaim MTBers to be the spawn of the devil who should not be allowed to ride off road (and, having said that, when the walkers get in their cars to drive home and get delayed by a cyclist they probably believe bikes shouldn't be on the road either!)

IMO 'sharing' means having tolerance towards other users even when it inconveniences yourself.

The riders have zero respect for other trail users and very little knowledge of how or when to avoid sensitive areas.

The same could be said for a lot of mountain bikers, the erosion/mess caused by groups of mountain bikers riding muddy trails can be pretty bad as well.

An old friend of the family used to be in the trf and he spent a lot of time researching old maps and fighting with the councils/dales national park over rights of way. As said, loads of stuff now marked bridleway would have previously been marked footpath if it wasn't for moto (and horse) organisations. Its a bit hypocritical to freeload off their research and then moan about them.

Everyone has to behave responsibly, that's a given.

I have no idea why an organisation for motorcycles would want to have footpaths made into bridle ways but fair play to them for doing so.

But I'm not sure to say 'look we did this for you, now you support open access for mx bikes' is a good way of presenting it as an altruistic act.

nick, can you tell me when (what year) that extensive list of footpaths^ got upgraded to bridleways, following extensive research and presumably lobbying by the trf. was there a mass reappraisal or case by case over many years.

wwaswas - Member

But I'm not sure to say 'look we did this for you, now you support open access for mx bikes' is a good way of presenting it as an altruistic act.

They're [b]not[/b] MX bikes btw. Enduro bikes, trials bikes, trail bikes - all capable of being road legal,unlike a MX bike, unless you go to the trouble of road registering it.
But then I'd be calling it an Enduro bike anyway.....

'off road capable motorcycle' then?

Mtbs are a just 'bicycles' to people who don't know/care about the nuances that riders choose to impose.

[edit] I'm walking away from this now. Nick can't have imagined we'd all suddenly see the light and allow motorised vehicles free rein over the landscape so it's either a troll or just slightly misguided attempt to publicise his access plan.

wwaswas, nick didn't mention 'bridleway' til his last paragraph. TRF would have been seeking to confirm higher rights and, although I'm not familiar with those on his list, I'm guessing some will be byways or restricted byways. TRF along with Byways & Bridleways Trust and LARA will have benefited us as MTBers as a by-product 😉

I find it interesting that 20 odd years ago motorised users were trying to get together as one voice to compare with the recognition the RA have in Parliament. Bit like cycling now with IMBA, CTC, BC, etc..

Thanks for that nick3216. Interesting to know. NIMBY's have gone a bit quiet for some reason...

IMO 'sharing' means having tolerance towards other users even when it inconveniences yourself

+1

the argument that motorcycle riders cause damage is the thin end of the wedge, the ridgeway near here used to have restricted access from Nov to May to prevent damage through the winter months - but motor vehicles still got banned totally a few years later 🙁 there are hundreds of other footpaths & bridleways for walkers, horse riders & cyclists to use if they want to keep away from offroaders.

I think what the OP is trying to say is that historically the TRF got rights of way opened up in the past for motor vehicles, which presumably have now got down graded to bridleways. Don't think he is asking for free access to motor vehicles just that current access shouldn't be further restricted (especially as it has already been massively restricted in the past few years) & perhaps mtb riders should show a little gratitude rather than jumping on the ban wagon.

Just my own thoughts here as a motorbike rider & mtb'er, but you get idiots in all walks of life, I treat the trails with the respect it deserves no matter what I'm on.

I've been out on trails on my motorbike & get tarred with the same brush as the numpties ripping everything up on a stolen or mx bike, I ride a road legal trail bike, not a mx bike.

I've also been out on the trails with my 9 yr old daughter on mtb's & have been frequently confronted by the "you shouldn't be here" crowd.

The problem is, as has been said before, people only ever remember/hear about the bad un's, I only ever use the trails when they are in the right condition whatever hobby I'm doing.

Should these ROW's be open to all? I honestly don't know, but with the ever decreasing miles of BOAT's the legitimate & carefull users are being forced into smaller & smaller areas, this concentration of masses of people doesn't help the area or the locals.

Imo everyone's entitled to be there & as long as they're respecting it live & let live, if they're not respecting it & they're breaking the law they be treated accordingly.

How long can we keep legislating for idiots & punishing the decent law abiding citizens who've done nothing wrong?

One of the things that has been seen for years is the damaging effect of degradation of the network by creating "hotspots"

You can spread, say, a couple of hundred users across the whole "old" network in the dales with few major problems, yet as they've gradually closed routes, those couple of hundred riders are concentrated onto only a few routes, instead of the dozens they used before, so the problem is concentrated and made worse.

given that so many areas have been treating "off roaders" as scum, when you start closing routes, some people don't just "give up" their sport, they go elsewhere, so the problem there becomes even worse - a good example would be the Dales NP off road bans leading to increased pressure in Nidderdale.

The problem I believe has been exacerbated by the "ban it" approach, when in fact they should have embraced it, and created some "sacrificial protection" in the less popular tourist areas, maybe some dedicated trails with reinforced surfaces and stone armouring in forest areas where the impact is a bit lower....

You know, you could put some great dedicated motorbike trails in places like Wales, Scotland and Northumberland, bring some tourist money into depressed areas, additioanl revenue streams for local communities with B&B's, shops, garages etc...

Zulu-Eleven - Member

You know, you could put some great dedicated motorbike trails in places like Wales, Scotland and Northumberland, bring some tourist money into depressed areas, additioanl revenue streams for local communities with B&B's, shops, garages etc...

Another parallel with MTBing is the sudden increase in recreational users wanting to spend their leisure time in the countryside.
Back in the late 80s/early 90s, 4x4s suddenly became affordable to the urban masses (previously the preserve of farmers and enthusiasts), enduro and trail bikes became a lot more popular to people for whom rural areas were becoming ever more reachable (ironically because of the surfacing and improvements to the rural road networks in the 50s and 60s to benefit the increasing availability of motor cars!). People had disposable income and were spending it on their hobbies and they want to pursue those hobbies in the great outdoors. A lot of them! Sound familiar?!?

Haven't people always wanted to spend there leisure time in the countryside?

According to my great grandad, he & my great nan used to cycle & take picnics into the woods when they were courting, probably for a very different reason than finding the sweet piece of singletrack though 😀

but all the same..........

That is true Daz but these days they would be sharing the woods with a couple of hundred MTBers, a few 4x4s, a handfull of trailriders, some twitchers, the new recreational tree-climbers club, a horse enduro, dog walkers and, probably, some doggers too 8)

EDIT: Oh, and I almost forgot, some pole carrying ramblers. Picture the scene; grandad getting a bit mischeivous and some old redsock prodding his derriere with a walking pole and proclaiming [i]"Oi, you can't do that here..."[/i] 😯 😆

some real bullocks on here.. i was riding green lanes on my dt125 in the late 70's early eighties.. the lanes roads were empty no one on them i once met 4 other riders over scarbrough way other than that no one. i started riding mtb in the late 80's (88 i bought a shogun.. 89 an orange) i once met a runner on mastiles and 3 trail riders i lived nr skipton and rode a couple of hundred miles off road every week.. i never once came across 4x4
the firrst time i met hikers was near gargrave in 91 and the next whilst racing in the 3 peaks when agroup of hikers saw fit to try and push us off our bikes as we came down from the last summit.

today i cant push my bike out of my shed without meeting other riders and walkers are every 100m usually in large groups led by angry pensioners ( well folk over 50)

the truth is numbers have bloomed ( except of rmorobikes and 4x4) and the by ways have dimished and so conflict between user groups has increased because of a selfish attitude on all sides

Picture the scene; grandad getting a bit mischeivous and some old redsock prodding his derriere with a walking pole and proclaiming "Oi, you can't do that here..."

Really not something I ever want to picture TBH 😀

He was with us on our motorbike trail rides into his 80's, you aint seen nothing till you've seen the face of someone who's just finished lecturing you about how you're not allowed to this here etc etc & he takes his lid off & says "sorry could you repeat that, I'm a bit mutton"

Nick,

Sorry I’ve been away – riding my bike.

These pics below are on Long Lane a couple of hours ago. It's one of the 13 applications put in by the TRF to upgrade was was recorded on the DM&S as a BW to be a byway. Of the 13 applications just about all were to change the records from BW to Byway (i.e. no obvious net gain for cyclists). Every one was found to be lacking so that not one was changed to a byway.

Anyway back to my ride. There was not a breath of wind, the sense of tranquillity and peace was unrivalled. I saw one walker and two other cyclists. Do you think my day would have been enhanced or have been made worse by seeing a group of 4x4s or road-legal-scramble bikes up there with all the noise and smell that comes with them? Maybe the walker was otherwise a 4x4 driver that was now walking the route. Do you think it was better that he left the car at the end of the tarmac and walked the route?

[IMG] [/IMG]

[IMG] [/IMG]

[IMG] [/IMG]

[IMG] [/IMG]

Incidentally your wondering about the phrase ‘coach road’ was almost certainly meant to mean a horse drawn coach, not a 54 seater coach!! You will know (if you are involved in RoW work) that the defining academic paper on the meaning of the word ‘road’ is one by Tricia Newby titled ‘Correcting the Camber’. It is accepted and quoted by PI inspectors at DMMO Inquiries. It states that the word ‘road’ was used historically to mean a way or track and not a track dedicated to wheeled vehicles.

C

Incidentally your wondering about the phrase ‘coach road’ was almost certainly meant to mean a horse drawn coach, not a 54 seater coach!!

And in 1968, "mountain" bikes hadn't been invented, do you think they envisaged 10" travel downhill rigs hooning down Snowdon at the time? upsetting the walkers, running over little old ladies and their dogs on the Llanberis path?

Clearly the solution is to ban bicycles from all bridleways in all the national parks to protect the peace and tranquility from these lycra clad louts?

You may laugh at such a proposition!

Early nineties saw Dartmoor make mountain biking a criminal offence, Exmoor listing mountain biking as an “unsuitable activity” in their local plan, and, yes, Snowdonia attempting to ban mountain bikers from their bridleways...

Its not so long ago us mountainbikers were 'persona non grata' - especially in the Yorkshire Dales NP - and nowt saying that we won't be again. people like Mark Allum have done huge amounts making the NPA friendly for MTB'ers there, but some of us still remember the old days 😐

if you want to see 'real' erosion, try some of the Peak District footpaths...

Zulu-eleven is spot on about the hotspots problem.

Dazz
I ride a road legal trail bike, not a mx bike.

IME (and at the risk of talking to the converted here) many people don't really understand the difference between the legitimate TRF-type people and the idiots on mx bikes, just thinking they are all the latter.

I was involved in the early stages of Tread-lightly UK and see a good future for it, but quite frankly I don't see this as helping answer the current significany underlying issue, which is a complete lack of adequate legal trail length (can I blame NERC yet?)

totalshell

the truth is numbers have bloomed ( except of rmorobikes and 4x4) and the by ways have dimished and so conflict between user groups has increased because of a selfish attitude on all sides

This is how I see it, and I really don't know what the answer is TBH

[edit]

a bit OT, but the current definition of a road is, and I'm paraphrasing, 'something that looks like a road' 🙂 I read it a few months ago reading a case study of someone being convicted for drink driving on a campsite field between two pieces of rope, apparently that was sufficient!

your debt to the trail riders
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
My ar$e

I was logging back in to post EXACTLY that. 🙂

(can I blame NERC yet?)

You're more than welcome to blame NERC

many people don't really understand the difference between the legitimate TRF-type people and the idiots on mx bikes, just thinking they are all the latter

& please don't label me a TRF type 🙄

I agree that motorised bikes tend to churn up paths more than non-motorised bikes. And in turn us MTB'ers mess it up more than walkers. Not to mention horses which seem as effective as a plough on muddy tracks. The argument is quite an old one and needs to be seen in context.

I have been passed by groups of motor bike riders on several occasions in the Dales. On each and every one they have slowed down, thanked me for giving them space. Give and take. I respect their sport as they respect mine.

And reflecting on some earlier posts I wonder if it boils down to numbers? Being passed by half a dozen noisy bikers once in a day wouldn't bother me. Twice. Three times. Every five minutes? Yes.
There must be space allocated for all of us. I think the NPA is doing a pretty good job of moderating what is and is not fit for purpose for motorised vehicles.

The first time I meet someone who tells me I shouldn't be on a trail I try and make my case. If I meet them a second time and they try the same thing I ignore them and simply ride on rather than beat my frontal lobes into a bloody pulp against their stupidity and intransigence.

I'm the same with internet fools these days.

Best piss off then eh?

Having read the thread through I'm still not won over. I'm happy to share the trails with all non motorised users including the horse riding fraternity (who we definitely owe gratitude to for increasing access despite their tendancies to plough the bridleways).

I've had nothing but bad experiences locally with MX riders or what ever classification you want to put them in, being pelted with stones from the rear wheel of some idiot belting past you is not fun. Nor is having the constant drone of motor bike engines echoing across the hillsides which we used to get where I live (police and council have had a concerted crack down over the last year or so) or watching them tear up purpose built mountain bike trails.

If motorised trail users think they have a legitimate right to the trails they'll have to plead that infront of the government. In the meantime I'll stick to worrying about the access issues facing MTBers and other non motorised trail users who cause significantly less damage and irritation per mile traveled than the motorised users.

I do agree though that there are many mountain bikers who cause the rest of us issues as well due to their poor behaviour but the same can be said for walkers and equestrians.

Back to the OP, we actually have a lane locally that would have been upgraded to bridleway status, everyone is happy for that. Unfortunately because the local motorised users want to take the access rights to a higher level (which is unlikely to be granted) the rest have to wait for our access rights to be confirmed. For some reason the route can't be upgraded to BW until the higher level access rights have been decided.

re the debt to trail riders

see -

BBTRUST.ORG.UK "http://www.bbtrust.org.uk/archive/Seminar+Papers/Seminar+1984-3-31.pdf"

RESEARCHING INTO UNRECORDED RIGHTS OF WAY
ALAN KIND (LARA Motor Sport &. Planning Officer.)

HOW CAN B.B.T. HELP?
BRIAN THOMPSON (*TRF ROW officer)
Brian Thompson explained that B.B.T’s main method of protecting byways and bridleways

Interesting and possibly related fact.

Littondale was the inspiration for Charles Kingleys tale "The Water Babies".

Some folk might like to consider the personalities of Mrs Doasyouwouldbedoneby and Mrs Bedonebyasyoudid.

+1 for Stumpy John.

GusAMC, I'm not sure what that is supposed to show! I still cannot think of one occasion ever that the TRF have applied for a bridleway to be recorded. I would be happy for you to give me an example. I can think of very many wher ethey have tried to get bridleways recorded as Byways so they could ride them on road-legal-scramble bikes without fear of prosicution.

Not least as it’s from 1984 and Brian Thompson has been dead for probably 2 years. Since then BBT has shown itself to be a thinly veiled motorist rights group. Alan Kind (BBT is otherwise known as the Alan Kind Roadshow) only seems to fight for motor rights and is paid by LARA to motorsports group.

I do appreciate that in the Dales we (MTBs) do pretty well. We have the almost unwavering support of the Park, we have a Park that has been at the forefront of sorting out the recreational offroad motor groups and have a police force that puts it as a priority and backs them up. In fact most of Settle police station ride MTBs I think! There is loads of space for MTBs and I don’t know a landowner or farmer that has a problem with them. I do know many that have a problem with motors.

Nick I thought you were going to tell me that groups of motors in those pictures would have made the ride (for me and the other people up there) a better experience!

C

Nick - you seem to be stuck in a world of fairy tales

C

I do appreciate that in the Dales we (MTBs) do pretty well. We have the almost unwavering support of the Park

Wasn't always that way though was it?

BBTRUST.ORG.UK "http://www.bbtrust.org.uk/pdf/pr-bassenthwaite.pdf"

Byways & Bridleways Trust saves a public bridleway in the Lake District from closure.

In 2008 the Lake District National Park Authority made an order to downgrade 1190 metres of Bridleway 206008 at Bassenthwaite to the status of public footpath.

your debt to the trail riders
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
My ar$e

Well said that Forumite. 😉

As much as I have a huge amount of fondness for our Rights of Way network, it really does need to be brought up-to-date but that obviously is unlikely to happen.

Actually, we've been here before and I cba'd arguing. 😐

Zulu, I don't remember it not being like that.

Notwithstanding that, it's not really a valid argument to support offroading to say that other things are bad so that makes it OK!

C

http://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/byways-bridleways-trust-score-another-victory/

Some of us do Chris - back in the early nineties the response of the then chairman of the NPA was openly hostile to the lycra louts... then Foot and Mouth happened!

Notwithstanding that, it's not really a valid argument to support offroading to say that other things are bad so that makes it OK!

And its not really a valid argument to say "it damages the trails" "causes erosion" "spoils the peace and tranquility of the countryside" "loud" "noisy" "dangerous" "fast" "disturbs wildlife" "I don't like them there" or any of a myriad of other complaints - as they've all been levelled against us.

Especially, the argument used 'against' that they go on and damage trails where they're not legally allowed, eh 😉

Pre F&M, MTB'ers really were scum

[url= http://blog.southlakesgroup.org.uk/?p=138 ]http://blog.southlakesgroup.org.uk/?p=138[/url]

This is a subject that interests me but I'm working nights so my brain is somewhat scrambled, so could someone just clarify if this thread is;
1 - the op talking shite.
2 - worth reading properly.

Ta.

The same old arguement - same names

Chris and his ilk are all nimbys - your photos and description are just a case in point

I've said it before - you need to be careful what you wish for, there are people out there who are even more short sighted then you.............
Trials riders have lost the right to use a local farms land for use "due to complaints from neighbours" - local councillors have gone on record as having had no such complaint on record WTF!!
It only taakes 2 or 3 people to make sure your rights are removed - wether mtb, horse or trail riders. There are plenty of idiots out there who think their right is greater.

It only taakes 2 or 3 people to make sure your rights are removed - wether mtb, horse or trail riders.

From legit ROW ? I doubt it.

[img] [/img]

This just jumped to the top of my wish list - in front of my new 29er

That is a trail bike..............not mx, not enduro - just so you know

less of a footprint then me on my 2.1's!!

Chris - have a read of this and hark your mind back...

HOW ABOUT YOUR DEBT TO THE FREAKIN' RED SOCKS? Or the Kinder Trespassers? I wrote off anything I owe to bleeding motorcyclists several years ago when I got sick of being splattered with gravel by the 'inconsiderate minority'.

never been splashed by a mtb or horse etc then??

whyyoushouting??

Kinder trespassers were exactly that - trespassers. Red socked trespassers. Trial bikes ride on byways and roads

I can remember cycling across Mastiles only to be overtaken by a set of m/crossers who seemed to think that wheelspin and trench digging was the best thing since. As for the complete carnage m/bikes created across Round Hill between Ilkey/ Middleton and Blubberhouses.... since the ban on motorised twonks the moor has recovered. Never let them back.

'Trial bikes'??? You sure you mean 'trial bikes'? 😉

I've said it before - you need to be careful what you wish for, there are people out there who are even more short sighted then you.............

+1

I can imagine the apoplexy if I rode my neddy over Foxup. Perfectly legitimate right to be there but you'd soon find the NIMBYs poring over legal documents to try and find some excuse to stop me.

Are you still going on about this?

Just accept that

1. Most mtbers don't support off road motor bike access issues
2. The few that do also ride off road motor bikes

I reckon I've less in common with you than I have with walkers to be honest. In my experience all you do is churn up the trails really badly, make shit loads of unwelcome noise and generally piss everybody off.

The bollocks about supporting motor bikes because WE MIGHT BE NEXT is just that. BOLLOCKS.

1. Most mtbers don't support off road motor bike access issues
2. The few that do also ride off road motor bikes

It's based on my opinion and 20 odd years of riding mtbs. Threads like these pop up on here every once in a while and the same things get said over and over again.

I would say, largely, that other trail users consider mtbs to be permanent and legitimate fixture in the countryside, albeit grudgingly.

I'd further say, almost entirely, that all other trail users consider motor bikes to be out of place on the trail network and a throwback to less informed times.

I'm sure you don't like it, but sometimes you need to accept that things have changed, and they won't change back.

I'm all for access for all parties but the facts must be looked at. On a steep muddly incline even an MTB God (or Goddess) is reduced to a rambler. A Motorbike is not. Usually leaving a huge scar in the trail with loads of noise and 2 stroke stench. Cycling is now considered a healthy pastime now that the love affair with the car is fading due to very real resource problems and climate concerns. All Councils and leisure related organisations cannot ignore cycling provision as it is well documented that there is an obesity epidemic in the UK that affects the NHS and therefore the government. I very nearly bought and old Landy with the idea of Green Laning. I examined the facts as above and saw Byways rapidly closing down. I didn't buy a Landy. I do agree that at some point a well organised motorbike group had some presence on the formation of access rights. It's just that things are changing.

I think things might also become interesting over the next 10 years as electric assist mountain bikes gain popularity 🙂

It's possibly pointless to take a forum/interest and treat it like an individual, but why not. Mountain bikers moan if a trail is too difficult. They moan if it's too easy. They moan if it's too soft. Or too hard. They moan if it's too lumpy. Or too smooth. They moan that Ashton court is too artificial. They moan about braking bumps in trail centres. Mountain bikers moan about trail erosion. Mountain bikers post vids here all the time showing mountain bikes ripping brown grooves through green ground. Mountain bikers moan about others using legal rights of way. Mountain bikers ride wherever they feel like, because they 'should be allowed there'.

I love pitting my skill on two wheels against the terrain. Been doing it so long I remember when mountain bikes arrived and I felt glad someone had invented a bike for the kind of riding I did. The sense of kinship with a trail rider is obvious, we love the same thing. Mountain bikers get the whole network, they had 5% of it. The government's own investigation held recreational use of green lanes to be insignificant in erosion, and the green laners were stiffed out of half their access anyway. If one group of people can be treated that shoddily, any of us can.

Ultimately, the argument against trail riding is the same. The damage WE do is ok, the damage THEY do is not. Mountain bikes do far more damage by their sheer numbers, but it's damage spread over 100% of the network, not 2%.

Mountain bikers hate trail-bikes almost as much as they hate people who run different sized wheels to themselves.

Maybe mountain bikers should break the habit of hating by default, stand back, and think. What a fantastic bunch of nutters offroaders are, pitting everything from ponies through fixed wheel single speed bicycles to 1960s vintage trials bikes against our glorious rocks and mud. What a privilege to know them.

What

A

Load

Of

Bollocks

Klumpy,

I think you and I come to MTBing from two very different angles. Whether I’m unusual, you are or there’s a fairly equal spread I don’t know. Most of the people I see tend to approach it from my direction but it could well be that’s just the circles I move in.

I don’t pit my wheels against the terrain. I don’t see MTBs as being very similar to road-legal-scramble bikes. I see it as a way to be in the mountains. A way to be in places where motors are left far behind. To do it under one’s own steam, to journey from one place to another. To be at peace with the mountain environment, to be virtually silent and pass without being noticed and leaving hardly a mark. I come to it from mountaineering, from caving and from paragliding.

Perhaps motorbikes have a place, bazzing round some gravel pit or a slag-heap on the edge of the M1 at Barnsley but not in the fells, moors and mountains,

C

That ^^^

Ban all motor vehicles from the legal rights of way....!

Especially some guys I know in their land rovers an discovery's who arn't able to enjoy the country side without them cos they're disabled .

Sit them on the side of the road with binoculars that what I say.

I see it as a way to be in the mountains. A way to be in places where motors are left far behind. To do it under one’s own steam, to journey from one place to another. To be at peace with the mountain environment, to be virtually silent and pass without being noticed and leaving hardly a mark. I come to it from mountaineering, from caving and from paragliding.

Perhaps motorbikes have a place, bazzing round some gravel pit or a slag-heap on the edge of the M1 at Barnsley but not in the fells, moors and mountains,

While I'm sympathetic to your view, it seems slightly over-romanticised to me. The Dales are beautiful and generally peaceful, but as you know, also a busy and occasionally noisy working environment.

Long Lane and Sulber looked lovely in your shots, but what if the farmer was razzing his quad-bike up there to feed those sheep? I wouldn't be particularly affronted by that noise or intrusion, just as I'm not bothered if I hear blasting and trucks in a quarry when I'm on the hill, or I get buzzed by a couple of Hawk trainers. True peace and solitude are rare commodities on most of the trade routes of the Dales.

If bikers are chewing up a particularly vulnerable stretch of ground, then I'm against that, and that includes mtbers as well as motorised ones. But I confess I've come across groups of motorbikers only very occasionally on green lanes in the Dales, and they've never caused me more than a brief disturbance.

Presumably the view of the countryside from the side of the road with binoculars will be pretty much the same as that from a dirt track?

IanMunro.......you think so !!!!

yossarian - Member

Just accept that

1. Most mtbers don't support off road motor bike access issues
2. The few that do also ride off road motor bikes

No, don't, because it's cobblers. If you want proof, I am it 😉

Just a classic example of human nature... You lot are bottled onto a ridiculously small number of legal trails, and have to share it with horses, walkers and greenlaners. Instead of trying to get out of the bottle, you fight with the other folks that have been shoved in there with you. Even if you win, you'll still be stuck in a bottle.

Funnily enough Chris, I've heard almost exactly the same arguments made against mountain bikes!

Does no-one remember Mike V@ndem@n?

Bikes should be restricted to paved roads, as is the rule in Yosemite National Park. Without these large pieces of machinery on our trails, we can all enjoy the trails on an equal footing.

The problem is the bicycles themselves. Bikes, especially with knobby tires, greatly accelerate erosion, killing any plants and animals that happen to be on or under the trail. The tires create V-shaped grooves that are difficult and dangerous to walk on. [b]The presence of bikes ruins the experience of real, un-artificial nature that most of us are seeking.[/b] The bikes force everyone to watch out for their safety, when they would prefer to enjoy nature, peace, and quiet. And, more subtle, but probably more important in the long run, bikes make it much easier for more people to get into wildlife habitat, driving out the wildlife. Bikers advertize their rides as being from 15 to 60 miles long -- FAR farther than a hiker normally travels. That represents a lot of disturbed wildlife habitat!

Remember, if you mention his name three times, he will appear 😉

Just a classic example of human nature... You lot are bottled onto a ridiculously small number of legal trails, and have to share it with horses, walkers and greenlaners. Instead of trying to get out of the bottle, you fight with the other folks that have been shoved in there with you. Even if you win, you'll still be stuck in a bottle.

Totally wrong. Wronger than wrong in fact. You are living in the past. On your own. In a bottle or something.

Registered disabled carriages are exempt from parts of NERC and all the TROs in the Dales (I don’t know about the rest of England and Wales) exempt them too. So if you are genuinely disabled, you are free to use them on the green lanes. I would welcome them too.

[url] http://www.yorkshiredales.org.uk/notice_of_making-2.pdf [/url]

The regulations set out what they are, I’d have to look it up again but basically there is a power restriction, a speed restriction (10mph I think) etc. So if you are genuinely disabled then provision has been made. Of course if you want to use the disabled argument in a devious way……….

At the NERC Bill stage disabled groups lobbied the govenement to stop allowing motors on green lanes. They felt that green lanes should be a place where blind or deaf people should be able to go and ‘feel’ the isolation without meeting motors. They also argued that learning-disabled people were confused when they saw motors on green lanes and that was a problem. They also argued that green lanes (because they generally were stile free, better graded etc) were better suited for people of poor mobility and that they could be damaged by ruts from recreational motors which was damaging a too-rare rescource for them. You might not agree with that but it’s a matter of record

C

yossarian - Member

Totally wrong. Wronger than wrong in fact. You are living in the past. On your own.

Must have imagined this entire thread, and every other one like it, and every incident of trail contention in history.

What

A

Load

Of

Bollocks

Classic!
WALOB is now part of my Vocabulary. Thanks yossarian.