[Closed] Green lanes in Yorkshire Dales National Park - your debt to the trail riders

Byways & Bridleways Trust saves a public bridleway in the Lake District from closure.

In 2008 the Lake District National Park Authority made an order to downgrade 1190 metres of Bridleway 206008 at Bassenthwaite to the status of public footpath.

your debt to the trail riders
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
My ar$e

Well said that Forumite. 😉

As much as I have a huge amount of fondness for our Rights of Way network, it really does need to be brought up-to-date but that obviously is unlikely to happen.

Actually, we've been here before and I cba'd arguing. 😐

Zulu, I don't remember it not being like that.

Notwithstanding that, it's not really a valid argument to support offroading to say that other things are bad so that makes it OK!

C

http://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/byways-bridleways-trust-score-another-victory/

Some of us do Chris - back in the early nineties the response of the then chairman of the NPA was openly hostile to the lycra louts... then Foot and Mouth happened!

Notwithstanding that, it's not really a valid argument to support offroading to say that other things are bad so that makes it OK!

And its not really a valid argument to say "it damages the trails" "causes erosion" "spoils the peace and tranquility of the countryside" "loud" "noisy" "dangerous" "fast" "disturbs wildlife" "I don't like them there" or any of a myriad of other complaints - as they've all been levelled against us.

Especially, the argument used 'against' that they go on and damage trails where they're not legally allowed, eh 😉

Pre F&M, MTB'ers really were scum

[url= http://blog.southlakesgroup.org.uk/?p=138 ]http://blog.southlakesgroup.org.uk/?p=138[/url]

This is a subject that interests me but I'm working nights so my brain is somewhat scrambled, so could someone just clarify if this thread is;
1 - the op talking shite.
2 - worth reading properly.

Ta.

The same old arguement - same names

Chris and his ilk are all nimbys - your photos and description are just a case in point

I've said it before - you need to be careful what you wish for, there are people out there who are even more short sighted then you.............
Trials riders have lost the right to use a local farms land for use "due to complaints from neighbours" - local councillors have gone on record as having had no such complaint on record WTF!!
It only taakes 2 or 3 people to make sure your rights are removed - wether mtb, horse or trail riders. There are plenty of idiots out there who think their right is greater.

It only taakes 2 or 3 people to make sure your rights are removed - wether mtb, horse or trail riders.

From legit ROW ? I doubt it.

[img] [/img]

This just jumped to the top of my wish list - in front of my new 29er

That is a trail bike..............not mx, not enduro - just so you know

less of a footprint then me on my 2.1's!!

Chris - have a read of this and hark your mind back...

HOW ABOUT YOUR DEBT TO THE FREAKIN' RED SOCKS? Or the Kinder Trespassers? I wrote off anything I owe to bleeding motorcyclists several years ago when I got sick of being splattered with gravel by the 'inconsiderate minority'.

never been splashed by a mtb or horse etc then??

whyyoushouting??

Kinder trespassers were exactly that - trespassers. Red socked trespassers. Trial bikes ride on byways and roads

I can remember cycling across Mastiles only to be overtaken by a set of m/crossers who seemed to think that wheelspin and trench digging was the best thing since. As for the complete carnage m/bikes created across Round Hill between Ilkey/ Middleton and Blubberhouses.... since the ban on motorised twonks the moor has recovered. Never let them back.

'Trial bikes'??? You sure you mean 'trial bikes'? 😉

I've said it before - you need to be careful what you wish for, there are people out there who are even more short sighted then you.............

+1

I can imagine the apoplexy if I rode my neddy over Foxup. Perfectly legitimate right to be there but you'd soon find the NIMBYs poring over legal documents to try and find some excuse to stop me.

Are you still going on about this?

Just accept that

1. Most mtbers don't support off road motor bike access issues
2. The few that do also ride off road motor bikes

I reckon I've less in common with you than I have with walkers to be honest. In my experience all you do is churn up the trails really badly, make shit loads of unwelcome noise and generally piss everybody off.

The bollocks about supporting motor bikes because WE MIGHT BE NEXT is just that. BOLLOCKS.

1. Most mtbers don't support off road motor bike access issues
2. The few that do also ride off road motor bikes

It's based on my opinion and 20 odd years of riding mtbs. Threads like these pop up on here every once in a while and the same things get said over and over again.

I would say, largely, that other trail users consider mtbs to be permanent and legitimate fixture in the countryside, albeit grudgingly.

I'd further say, almost entirely, that all other trail users consider motor bikes to be out of place on the trail network and a throwback to less informed times.

I'm sure you don't like it, but sometimes you need to accept that things have changed, and they won't change back.

I'm all for access for all parties but the facts must be looked at. On a steep muddly incline even an MTB God (or Goddess) is reduced to a rambler. A Motorbike is not. Usually leaving a huge scar in the trail with loads of noise and 2 stroke stench. Cycling is now considered a healthy pastime now that the love affair with the car is fading due to very real resource problems and climate concerns. All Councils and leisure related organisations cannot ignore cycling provision as it is well documented that there is an obesity epidemic in the UK that affects the NHS and therefore the government. I very nearly bought and old Landy with the idea of Green Laning. I examined the facts as above and saw Byways rapidly closing down. I didn't buy a Landy. I do agree that at some point a well organised motorbike group had some presence on the formation of access rights. It's just that things are changing.

I think things might also become interesting over the next 10 years as electric assist mountain bikes gain popularity 🙂

It's possibly pointless to take a forum/interest and treat it like an individual, but why not. Mountain bikers moan if a trail is too difficult. They moan if it's too easy. They moan if it's too soft. Or too hard. They moan if it's too lumpy. Or too smooth. They moan that Ashton court is too artificial. They moan about braking bumps in trail centres. Mountain bikers moan about trail erosion. Mountain bikers post vids here all the time showing mountain bikes ripping brown grooves through green ground. Mountain bikers moan about others using legal rights of way. Mountain bikers ride wherever they feel like, because they 'should be allowed there'.

I love pitting my skill on two wheels against the terrain. Been doing it so long I remember when mountain bikes arrived and I felt glad someone had invented a bike for the kind of riding I did. The sense of kinship with a trail rider is obvious, we love the same thing. Mountain bikers get the whole network, they had 5% of it. The government's own investigation held recreational use of green lanes to be insignificant in erosion, and the green laners were stiffed out of half their access anyway. If one group of people can be treated that shoddily, any of us can.

Ultimately, the argument against trail riding is the same. The damage WE do is ok, the damage THEY do is not. Mountain bikes do far more damage by their sheer numbers, but it's damage spread over 100% of the network, not 2%.

Mountain bikers hate trail-bikes almost as much as they hate people who run different sized wheels to themselves.

Maybe mountain bikers should break the habit of hating by default, stand back, and think. What a fantastic bunch of nutters offroaders are, pitting everything from ponies through fixed wheel single speed bicycles to 1960s vintage trials bikes against our glorious rocks and mud. What a privilege to know them.

What

A

Load

Of

Bollocks

Klumpy,

I think you and I come to MTBing from two very different angles. Whether I’m unusual, you are or there’s a fairly equal spread I don’t know. Most of the people I see tend to approach it from my direction but it could well be that’s just the circles I move in.

I don’t pit my wheels against the terrain. I don’t see MTBs as being very similar to road-legal-scramble bikes. I see it as a way to be in the mountains. A way to be in places where motors are left far behind. To do it under one’s own steam, to journey from one place to another. To be at peace with the mountain environment, to be virtually silent and pass without being noticed and leaving hardly a mark. I come to it from mountaineering, from caving and from paragliding.

Perhaps motorbikes have a place, bazzing round some gravel pit or a slag-heap on the edge of the M1 at Barnsley but not in the fells, moors and mountains,

C

That ^^^

Ban all motor vehicles from the legal rights of way....!

Especially some guys I know in their land rovers an discovery's who arn't able to enjoy the country side without them cos they're disabled .

Sit them on the side of the road with binoculars that what I say.

I see it as a way to be in the mountains. A way to be in places where motors are left far behind. To do it under one’s own steam, to journey from one place to another. To be at peace with the mountain environment, to be virtually silent and pass without being noticed and leaving hardly a mark. I come to it from mountaineering, from caving and from paragliding.

Perhaps motorbikes have a place, bazzing round some gravel pit or a slag-heap on the edge of the M1 at Barnsley but not in the fells, moors and mountains,

While I'm sympathetic to your view, it seems slightly over-romanticised to me. The Dales are beautiful and generally peaceful, but as you know, also a busy and occasionally noisy working environment.

Long Lane and Sulber looked lovely in your shots, but what if the farmer was razzing his quad-bike up there to feed those sheep? I wouldn't be particularly affronted by that noise or intrusion, just as I'm not bothered if I hear blasting and trucks in a quarry when I'm on the hill, or I get buzzed by a couple of Hawk trainers. True peace and solitude are rare commodities on most of the trade routes of the Dales.

If bikers are chewing up a particularly vulnerable stretch of ground, then I'm against that, and that includes mtbers as well as motorised ones. But I confess I've come across groups of motorbikers only very occasionally on green lanes in the Dales, and they've never caused me more than a brief disturbance.

Presumably the view of the countryside from the side of the road with binoculars will be pretty much the same as that from a dirt track?

IanMunro.......you think so !!!!

yossarian - Member

Just accept that

1. Most mtbers don't support off road motor bike access issues
2. The few that do also ride off road motor bikes

No, don't, because it's cobblers. If you want proof, I am it 😉

Just a classic example of human nature... You lot are bottled onto a ridiculously small number of legal trails, and have to share it with horses, walkers and greenlaners. Instead of trying to get out of the bottle, you fight with the other folks that have been shoved in there with you. Even if you win, you'll still be stuck in a bottle.

Funnily enough Chris, I've heard almost exactly the same arguments made against mountain bikes!

Does no-one remember Mike V@ndem@n?

Bikes should be restricted to paved roads, as is the rule in Yosemite National Park. Without these large pieces of machinery on our trails, we can all enjoy the trails on an equal footing.

The problem is the bicycles themselves. Bikes, especially with knobby tires, greatly accelerate erosion, killing any plants and animals that happen to be on or under the trail. The tires create V-shaped grooves that are difficult and dangerous to walk on. [b]The presence of bikes ruins the experience of real, un-artificial nature that most of us are seeking.[/b] The bikes force everyone to watch out for their safety, when they would prefer to enjoy nature, peace, and quiet. And, more subtle, but probably more important in the long run, bikes make it much easier for more people to get into wildlife habitat, driving out the wildlife. Bikers advertize their rides as being from 15 to 60 miles long -- FAR farther than a hiker normally travels. That represents a lot of disturbed wildlife habitat!

Remember, if you mention his name three times, he will appear 😉

Just a classic example of human nature... You lot are bottled onto a ridiculously small number of legal trails, and have to share it with horses, walkers and greenlaners. Instead of trying to get out of the bottle, you fight with the other folks that have been shoved in there with you. Even if you win, you'll still be stuck in a bottle.

Totally wrong. Wronger than wrong in fact. You are living in the past. On your own. In a bottle or something.

Registered disabled carriages are exempt from parts of NERC and all the TROs in the Dales (I don’t know about the rest of England and Wales) exempt them too. So if you are genuinely disabled, you are free to use them on the green lanes. I would welcome them too.

[url] http://www.yorkshiredales.org.uk/notice_of_making-2.pdf [/url]

The regulations set out what they are, I’d have to look it up again but basically there is a power restriction, a speed restriction (10mph I think) etc. So if you are genuinely disabled then provision has been made. Of course if you want to use the disabled argument in a devious way……….

At the NERC Bill stage disabled groups lobbied the govenement to stop allowing motors on green lanes. They felt that green lanes should be a place where blind or deaf people should be able to go and ‘feel’ the isolation without meeting motors. They also argued that learning-disabled people were confused when they saw motors on green lanes and that was a problem. They also argued that green lanes (because they generally were stile free, better graded etc) were better suited for people of poor mobility and that they could be damaged by ruts from recreational motors which was damaging a too-rare rescource for them. You might not agree with that but it’s a matter of record

C

yossarian - Member

Totally wrong. Wronger than wrong in fact. You are living in the past. On your own.

Must have imagined this entire thread, and every other one like it, and every incident of trail contention in history.

What

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Load

Of

Bollocks

Classic!
WALOB is now part of my Vocabulary. Thanks yossarian.

ChrisE I'll pass that on ...thanks

I'm a lover of the solitude, the peace and quiet that you find in the mountains.

ChrisE doesn't speak for me. I reckon there's room enough for everyone with a bit of common sense and responsibility.

I reckon I've less in common with you than I have with walkers to be honest

Good. I'm happy to be more like the trail riders on here than those who affiliate with the ramblers. Ramblers have more in common with those who would [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/can-i-be-removed-for-trepass-forcibly ]seek to remove trespassers forcibly[/url] or [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/mtb-booby-trap-at-hamerstly-descent-bike-park ]booby trap legitimate trails[/url]. As often as not they are ignorant of the rights of other people to be there and often ignorant of the rights of way classification of the path they're on. I'm going to add to all that ignorance by ignoring you too in future. That way we'll both be happy - there's room for everyone on the forum just as there's room for everyone on the trails.

Fortunately this thread has restored my faith in MTBers as not all in the pocket of the red socks.

I'm glad I live the other end of the country to you.

Nick,

I don't have much to do with ramblers myself but I'm a bit disturbed that you think they, as a group, have a commonality with people that booby-trap cycle trails [with intent to injure]

C

there's room for everyone on the forum just as there's room for everyone on the trails.

in the past some of the pro trail rider/off roaders on this forum have suggested that if i object to the noise/erosion/aggression of off roaders on byways that I stop riding them and choose other routes

there is room for differing opinions but i still believe that mountain bikers will blow any possibility of getting more extensive access if they choose to align with and defend a recreational activity that only has a negative impact

I know Nick won’t agree with me, but I am agreeing with Antigee, I know it would be suicide to cuddle up to the motor lobby. Think about it, take off your cycling hat and look at it from the point of view of an everyday person, not connected with MTBs.

Think about the way things have moved over the last 10/15 years. We can put our eggs in the basket with motorists that have been legislated against over those years and the government has shown every sign of wanting to squeeze them even more. Reviewing use of motors in National Parks, pushing for parishes and citizens to take refusals for TROs to inquiry, pushing for a more environmentally sensitive exercising public. Or we can be what we are. Going out in the countryside, in peace and quiet, without fumes and engine noise, getting fitter.

It’s a no-brainer. Imagine where we would be now if we had aligned ourselves with motors 10 years ago. Led down the river then sunk.

The TRF, LARA and others will have members say you use your car to get to the trails, you ride too fast and piss walkers off and so on. What they will not do is put up a sensible positive argument. Because there isn’t one.

C

Sadly Chris E you are probably right in what you say & to be honest I very rarely see any motorised offroaders where I ride especially since they closed the ridgeway. However, there are many other things that restrict my enjoyment of cycling round the chilterns, horses churning up paths into unrideable mud in the winter & it drying to a corrugated finish for the summer, the shooting crowd disturbing the peace with shotgun blasts & having to dodge shot birds as they fall from the sky is particularly unpleasant. Unlike you I don't go around trying to get other peoples pastimes & enjoyment of the countryside restricted or banned totally but instead seek an alternative path for my pleasure when the need arises 🙂 & yes this is speaking as an ex trail rider albeit only very infrequently & not at all in the past 25yrs

When I was a kid the Ridgeway saw hardly any 4x4 traffic, and was fine. As off-roading gained popularity in the late '80s and '90s it became increasingly unpleasant - huge great mud-filled gouges to wade through or pick your way around. It made everyone I knew very cross, so much so that our local MP spent a long time trying to get a private members bill through to close it. I don't think he ever succeeded.

But last time I was up there it was much better. I guess the closure is working.

Sorry - been away trying to get that really annoying paraglider out of the field at the back, can't do with all that nylon crap destroying my view 😉

There is no 'positive arguement' any more so then the one you put forward for mtb. the only arguement is the one backed by law - I don't trail ride any more but I seriously think that curtailing the rights of the few who still do it legally and sensibly is so narrow minded. Chris, you climb? How would you like it if someone came round and told you you couldn't climb at Arncliffe, Malham, Gordale? all because someone had issues with the language, litter, climbers spoilt the views of the crags?? stupid isn't it - but what is really the difference?