[Closed] bikers and green lanes

My objection to them is more to do with "green lane-ers" not using green lanes and destroying other parts of the countryside that they shouldn't be in.

That frustration then boils over onto those using the legitimate lanes. It's not big and cleaver, and I don't like myself for it, but I don't seem to be able to help myself.

I have similar issues to mountain bikers using "Cheeky trails" but then I'm a bit anal about sticking to "rules" in general....

it just annoys me when people bikers seem to think they own trails they regularly use and anyone else is trespassing on there turf 🙄 then have the cheek to threaten to involve the authorities when you've done nothing wrong

it just annoys me when people bikers seem to think they own trails they regularly use and anyone else is trespassing on there turf then have the cheek to threaten to involve the authorities when you've done nothing wrong

I think part of the problem is the damage that 4x4s and MXers can do, if the ground is in the slightest bit soft it gets ripped apart to the point it becomes unusable by everyone.

thats why i like to ride footpaths 😈

I don't mind them using the same trails as me aslong as they don't rip it up as much as they do. Also the motorbikes put loud exhausts on for no reason...

Haven ridden both pushbikes and motorbikes off road I find the worst thing for making a mess of a trail is a horse. And it leaves shite everywhere too.
Loud pipes save lives.

supposedly motorbikes dont do as much damage as a car but they go everywhere to try make it more challenging which means they go off the track onto the verges ripping the fresh grass up where as in a 4x4 you don't have as much freedom to move about although there are some idiots who go tearing off looking for mud to get stuck in and just purposely make a mess

Don't mind them using green lanes as they're allowed. Don't like them going off road in undesgnated areas but I ride undesignated areas too so pot kettle and all that.

horses are a nuisance around here on soft moorland where they sink into the mud making ankle braking sized holes... and the people riding them (mainly women) can't keep control of them when they get giddy around bikes and its always your fault

Same as some greenlaners act like fools some bikers do too. We sadly only remember the bad ones.

Around my way there are far more BOATs than bridleways. It's also an area due to the geographical make-up that gets very very muddy. Due to the number of boats and the "challenging" conditions we get lots of groups of bikes and 4x4s come to the area at the weekends.

The reason I've come to dislike them is that they turn local byways open to all traffic into byways passable only by motorised vehicles and those travelling by foot, horse or push bike have to find alternative routes as they are so churned up. And as I said earlier we don't do many bridleways so legal mtb riding gets pretty thin on the ground.

I respect that the law allows them to be there (although there are plenty of boats around here with bans on motorised vehicles from November to March which seem to be frequently still used in the winter) but modern vehicles do seem a little large, heavy and powerful to do the long term health of these fragile old byways much good.

I am aware of the irony of mountain bikers complaining about other users doing damage and it does remind me how I might be viewed by others further down the off road food chain 😉

[b]mrmo[/b]
I think part of the problem is the damage that 4x4s and MXers can do, if the ground is in the slightest bit soft it gets ripped apart to the point it becomes unusable by everyone

It's about picking your routes, being considerate and playing by the rules.

Where to start……..

The Dales has had a lot of damage to green lanes from recreational vehicles which became ‘exponential’ in the late 1990s and beyond due to a discovery of the opportunities by many. This was curbed to a large extent in 2006 by the NERC Act which effectively stopped any new public rights of way for recreational vehicles being recorded in England and Wales. There are however still Byways Open to All Traffic (BOATs) that carry rights and UCRs that although not carrying recorded rights, were exempt from NERC so a prosecution for driving on them is unlikely as rights might (beyond reasonable doubt) exist.

Recreational vehicles (unlike pedal cycles (bikes)), have never had a right created on such green lanes - the rights were for wheeled horse-drawn-carts so as time went by, carts were replaced by cars and motor bikes then suddenly they were ‘discovered’ as a recreational resource for drivers and so the horse/cart ‘loophole’ exploited. Bikes however are a different matter. In the 1960’s legislation was introduced to expressly allow them on bridleways and BOATs. You therefore cannot equate the rights of motors to be on green lanes with the rights of walkers, cyclists and horses.

Recreational vehicle drivers argue they have a legal right to be there (which they have with the loophole) however eventually that will be closed as the majority of people think it is inappropriate (ICM poll). If you look back at how the UK has cleaned up it’s act, the environment and general wellbeing you cannot see that the improvement made over the last 25 years will not be continued over the next 25. For example it is very difficult (I would say impossible) to argue that driving recreational motors ‘for fun’ on green lanes in a National Park is in line with the special (statutory) purposes of the Park. That when the drivers could just as well ‘enjoy’ the lanes on foot, cycle, horse or disabled (special) vehicle.

Recreational vehicle users often quote that walkers don’t like cyclists however that’s not really arguing a good point for vehicles! It is playground arguing and shows there is no real positive argument that sets out why allowing recreational motor vehicles on green lanes is a good thing.

I live and was brought up in the Yorkshire Dales, ride my bike on the green lanes there every week and have seen the relentless degradation of the unique resource that is our green lanes which is why I support management of the routes and have joined GLEAM-uk.org to press fro green lanes to be free from recreational motor vehicles.

C

It does seem that 4x4's in general do cause an inordinate amount of damage.
The Tennyson Trail which runs along the spine of the Isle of Wight was quite popular about 10 years ago with the 4x4 set 1and was closed to the majority of 4x4's around 3 or 4 years ago. Only now has it stabilised and returned to what it was previously. Some of the more fragile / softer parts where like swamps even in the summer.
A more pragmatic approach needs to be taken to where people ride. This applies to bikes/ horses / 4x4s. I see a lots of trails ripped up by horses over the winter and in the summer they are a lumpy nightmare. Most of the bike riders I know tend to avoid the softer stuff in winter to prevent trail damage. Horse riders less so, especially the steeper stuff, all you end up with are loads of churned up steps down the hillsides.

I obviously want everybody to be able to enjoy the countryside.

But the rights of way system is rubbish.

It needs to be based on what is sustainable.

Plenty of green lanes are not capable of supporting 4x4 without destroying the surface for other users.

There are attempts to try and make green lanes sustainable for 4x4 but surely this is closing the door after the horse has bolted.

Ie the lane should be capable of supporting a 4x4 and hence its a green lane/boat not the other way round.

The whole ROW system needs to be updated all routes should be reclassified mainly based on sustainability but also on suitability.

Im my opinion many of the bridleways in the Chilterns arent suitable for horse riders in the Winter and should just be open for 9 months of the year.

Also many footpaths can quite often be wide open and almost be roads these should clearly be open to MTBers and horse riders.

And clearly there needs to be separate categories for bikes, powered bikes and powered 4 wheel vehicles.

With bikes total weight of bike + rider 100 - 150kg being treated very differently from horse + rider 380 to 550 kilograms + 70kg rider.

T***
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a long time ago i used to work on a farm with several byways, we were encouraged by the owner/farmer to cut up the byways as much as possible at the start and ends to quote "keep the riff raff out". you can do a lot of damage in a tractor.

they don't bother me much to be honest, the only thing i don't like is the noise....as it scares the crap out of me and i have visions of being ran over by some massive Dakar rally type bike

I don't think that you can generalize I have seem some Landrover drivers and offroad motorcyclists who drive with great care and consideration for the track they use, I have also seen others who are incapable going anywhere without ripping the track to shreads.

You are very right. You cannot generalise which is why the law cannot allow 'just a few 4x4s' or 'just the slow trail bikes'. It would be like having a drink drive law that allows 'only the ones who can hold their drink'!!

C

Kayak

whats the biggest damage to snowdon?
1 4x4
or a ****ing massive railway carved and blasted out of the rock and bridges built and just a total massive eyesore to take a few sightseers up a Mountain.

Irony?

Sancho, I am sure you are right. If applied for in 2012 Snowdonia NP would never ever allow an application to build a railway up Snowdon.

I am confident that the next move will be legaslation to ban recreational motoring on all unsurfaced tracks in National Parks because of the special qualities of the Parks.

C

as 4x4 and trail bike user use BOATS and RUPP's, then these are under the control of the local authority. If there is a problem with drainage, or the lane being water logged in winter, then its the local authorities duty to repair or make good the trail.
As a trail bike rider of some years, I've come up against many a snotty walker/mtb'er giving me their thoughts about my mode of transport, even when on perfectly legal right of way. If walkers/mtber's don't like seeing other users on lanes, go walk/ride on a footpath or bridleway away from motorised vehicles. Otherwise learn to share.

I don't drive on Greenlanes, done it once and it's not for me, I like my bike.

At the end of the day though 4x4s and MX bikes have very few rights of way left. Live and let live really. If you don't like them go elsewhere

Some of the responsible Green land chaps do a lot to maintain and fix stuff. It's not all knob heads

Hi Daisy D,

RUPPs do no longer exist, they were all converted en-masse on 1 May 2006 to be Restricted Byways and hence only have public rights to walk, cycle, horse ride and horse drawn cart.

Mantainance is not the job of the Local Authority. It is that of the Highway Authority if the way is mentained at public expense, or the land owner if it not. Here in the Yorkshire Dales many ways have public rights (to use) but are privatly mentainable. Notwithstanding that, mentain, mentain, mentain is not the answer. Routes across open moor and country that were designed in 1700 for carts should not be made into motorways just so some bloke in a massive 4x4 can indulge and show off his manlyness

C

if motorised users have a legal right of way, then they are at liberty to use them. Many lanes weren't designed for cyclists, but we are lucky enough to use them. The ROW legislation is all to cock in this country, but we need to learn to use our countryside along with others.
Now I don't live in Yorkshire dales, but here in North Wales, our local TRF have spent hours opening unused lanes which would otherwise disappear. The majority of lanes we used to ride on are unsuitable to walkers cyclists are they are overgrown. I'm not going to feel guilty for riding legal byways, because it may offend someone how knows little about the legal ROW system.
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In all this people forget about mother nature and farm vehicles.
Problem with alot of mtbikers these days they have never been in the countryside till they got a bike.I have greenlaned for years never had a problem with farmers or landowners have had some nice chats.Only problem i have is with walkers and cyclist.Funny that.I get more hassle on a mountain bike to be honest.

[quote="Sancho said"]
Kayak

whats the biggest damage to snowdon?
1 4x4
or a **** massive railway carved and blasted out of the rock and bridges built and just a total massive eyesore to take a few sightseers up a Mountain.

Irony?

I see your point, however, that damage is at least minimal and controlled now to some extent, its not going to get worse really is it.
Allowing 4x4'ers access to places like that would undoubtedly only leave the area in the kind of 'Battle-of-the-Somme' type conditions that I encounter on bridleways all too frequently.
I have little sympathy with 4x4 enthusiasts. Perhaps an island should be provided where they can all go and winch themselves out of puddles, and maybe stick the jet-skiers there too... 😮

Not on MY island i hope!

Allowing 4x4'ers access to places like that would undoubtedly only leave the area in the kind of 'Battle-of-the-Somme' type conditions that I encounter on bridleways all too frequently.

Unlikely, there's nothing resembling soil on Snowdon really.

Daisy D,

You say that if motorised users have a legal right to use a RoW then they should. Again that is only an anomaly and a ‘loophole’ which needs closing. Remember these RoW have been handed down to us solely because they were once cart tracks.

As for the TRF clearing tracks, they might not be as do-goody as you think. They repair only a fraction of the damage that they make as a nation and they would only open up a lane so they can ride motorbikes up and down it. I would have some respect for them if they cleared a lane then just walked up and down. Also they might clear a track ( and remember it’s a tiny amount of clearing that is done) then trash it riding up and own.

And I'm not sure how they repair the damaage to the peace and tranquilllity, or that made by buring oil etc

C

some facts

see: http://archive.defra.gov.uk/rural/countryside/prow/about.htm

Figures for England
Total public righs of way (kilometeres) - 188,700 kilometres
BOATs - 3,700 km

Chris E, you're not really prepared to share are you ?

Regarding maintenance -
"County Council responsibilities
Ensure the Definitive Map and Statement are kept up to date
Signposting all rights of way where they leave a metalled road and providing additional signs and waymarks where necessary
Keeping the surface of rights of way in good repair and managing natural surface growth, including field headlands
Ensuring that farmers comply with the law that paths over cultivated land are properly restored after they have been disturbed and remain apparent on the ground thereafter
Prevent the closure or obstruction of any highway
Ensure maintenance of existing bridges and culverts and installation of new ones
Provide a 25% grant to landowners for repair or improvement of structures
Administer the Parish Paths Partnership scheme"

it looks to me as if the landowner does not maintain BOATS (they do stiles and gates).

Regarding the Yorkshire Dales national park:
Total ROW length(km) = 2178 + 1879 = 4047, BOATS (total) = 46km, so it must cost a bleeding fortune to keep that open.

chris e - get off your bloody high horse.

spent an awful lot of time fighting the prejudiced views of your parish councillors etc re; the definitive map. the country side is there to be used and enjoyed by all as long as it is done in a legal and responible manner.

Farmers are as guilty as any other user especially the hilltop occupiers in their unimogs and fasttracks! horseriders in he wrong conditions and the thousands of walkers!!

same with any discipline - you get idiots and tossers, as trailriders in the dales the biggest problem was MXrs coming in vans on unregistered bikes treating all the lanes like a race track - twice I put my own bike in the way of some lads from the northeast and told them to bugger off.

IMHO Chris your not the voice of all dales residents - Mr Wilkinson from the garage in Kettlewell will help you with some other view points.

Last time I was riding in the dales on my MTB I was riding from Arncliffe to Street gate - came across 3 lads on 250's coming down (naughty I know!) I had a chat with them at a gate pointed out their error and they thanked me and said they'd cross it off the list. TBH I was making a bigger rut with my 2.1 then they were - no visible damage at all.

sorry - ROW issues get my bloody goat - ALL types!!

Look out for the NIMBY Nazis, you'll only be allowed on a ROW if you own the land or wear red socks

First they came for the 4x4s,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a 4x4 enthusiast.

Then they came for the MX 'ers,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a MX er.

Then they came for the Horseriders,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Horse. 😯

Then they came for Mountain Bikes
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Live and let live, they don't have much to play on

and I claim Goodwin

+1 Tiger

I remember dealing with the nimbys during the definitive map debacle

Only time I can think of when horsey types, mtb'rs and trailriders fought against a common 'foe'

They were enlightened enough to see the powers that the new act enabled and the possible problems that could be caused for all users other then your wooly hat brigade!!

+ 1 Tiger & Talltom

Live & let live I say, not ridden a motorbike off road for prob 25 years & never driven 4 x 4 but if thats what folk wanna do then let them, so few legal routes now that to restrict them even further is just being plain mean.

An old route near us, must have been some sort of byway if not bridleway in the past, now partially tarmac to get to a house & the owner goes crazy if you so much as push a bicycle along it

ChrisEe's comments about 'a loophole' allowing motor vehicles on green lanes is a real red herring. Of course RoWs originated with horse and carts, they all did whether tarmacked eventually or not. When motor transport took over they still used unsurfaced RoWs obviously mainly in country areas. So at what point does motor transport become offensive? It seems when it becomes recreational, which seems illogical.

live and let live

in many areas the [b][u]noise[/u][/b] and aggression shown by the majority of greenlaners is simply in the wrong place even when the activity is legal, majority because its the minority that are quiet(er) and give way to other users

as to the mtb's will be next argument - the distinction is simple - no motor = no noise and not a lot more erosion than walkers or horses

this could become a self fulfilling prophecy for those that have the attitudes of the offroaders and choose to align with them - rather than look to what the Ramblers Association and CROW have achieved for walkers

Ruts. They are a pain in the a***.

I obviously want everybody to be able to enjoy the countryside.

But the rights of way system is rubbish.

It needs to be based on what is sustainable.

Halleluja!

I nearly posted a proper comment on here just now but....
Too depressing.
Most 4x4 are.... Majority of Geen-laners are..... They're all the same you know...

OOh look! Red ones in my sock draw.

Be careful what you wish for, it'll be us next who'll be banned...

glad you said that b r

it's a point that all too few grasp!!!!

First of all something to grasp. Those who argue that there are 188,700 kilometres of RoW in England and Wales but only 3,700 km of BOATs then go on to argue that they are not offroaders they are traveling on ‘roads’. However if that is the case there are 188,700Km of lesser RoW and well over 400,000Km or A, B and lesser classified roads. So motor users have by far more places to drive than a few BOATs.

The maintenance liability of a RoW is not connected at all with the rights over it. Many routes have public rights to go over them but are privately mentioned, for example RT routes. There are many many RT routes in the Dales.

I haven’t spoken to the garage owner at Kettlewell but the attitude you speak of is not at all typical of the farmers, residents and MTBers I know around here. I don’t think it’s surprising that the only person you quote as liking offroaders is a guy whose spends all day on Sunday selling petrol to tourists.

As for ‘bikes will be next’ – of course that’s an argument that you can never resolve either way. That said the government and the YDNP have consistently supported bikes, pumped money into cycling routes and cycling generally so much so that I don’t believe that argument at all.

C

The point here is 'off road'

The fact that there's nearly half a million K's of tarmac is a moot point!

The Chap at the petrol station is just an example - you ever tried buying fuel off him?? Kettlewell has no legal lanes near there so get very little trail traffic.

In 15 years of trail riding I've only had 1 instance of a walker having issues with the trail we were on (Mastiles before it was closed). Yet on mtbs I've had quite a few run ins with Horse riders and ramblers - Gargrave, Malhamdale, Scar House, Harden Moor....

Of course the YDNP are going to promote cycling - its easier to get a grant for a new cycle lane then it is a footpath!

IMO its the parish councils who have way too much power when it comes to access. No user group is immune from being removed - Next thing you know Colonel Purple will move to the end of your fav run and then develop a dislike to the noise of your freehub.

4 of the ETRO's in the dales were instigated by the Parish council, The emphasis being on the 'E' These were meant to be 12 months - nearly 5 years ago!!

NIMBYS

sorry - ranting