[Closed] Give Cyclists Space

I used to think it was 1.5m clearance, although there was a great police video out there showing a police driver giving 'ample' room. Wasn't so long ago they were talking about increasing clearance distance, but that never happened?

Or better yet, give us decent, separated infrastructure so we don't have to worry about idiots and spottily enforced traffic laws. ❓

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I think it is pretty clear, pity the courts and police don't enforce the highway code guidance*.

*the Highway code isn't law(mostly) but if your actions fail to meet the standard and you have an accident i always, in my niave youth, thought it would be used against you.

Or better yet, give us decent, separated infrastructure so we don't have to worry about idiots and spottily enforced traffic laws

I'd disagree - [url= http://www.stewartpratt.com/?p=551 ]Bez puts it better than I could though[/url]

Or better yet, give us decent, separated infrastructure so we don't have to worry about idiots and spottily enforced traffic laws

I'd disagree - Bez puts it better than I could though

What 'Bez' is talking about, and a truly segrgated infrastructure (like our cycling friends over the water have), are two completely different things.

There's a fundamental problem in mixing bikes with traffic, whether it be by the side of the road, or in the middle of it. The vehicles are just too different. Hence segregation.

give it 25 years and everyone will be in flying cars so we'll have the roads to ourselves.

By "decent" and "separated" I mean something more than just a line painted on a road.

Have a look at some examples from the Netherlands, they've reconfigured a lot of their roads so that they effectively have an extra carriageway devoted to bicycles.

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http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com

Not being given enough space really annoys me. There's a ~300m of road I regular cycle to get between two trails. EVERY time at least one driver squeezes me. The worst example was when a driver didn't see the big yellow ambulance with lights and siren on coming the other way and had to abort getting past me nearly hitting me.

Riders like this bloke annoy me. "Oh, sorry cars it's your road, I'll ride in the gutter to stay out of your way"... grrr!

cyclepaths are not the whole answer - and are not in the netherlands. 20 mph limits, giving priority to cyclists over cars and considering bicycles as equal in road design and planning is what is needed

give it 25 years and everyone will be in flying cars so we'll have the roads to ourselves.

wont there be flying bikes then too?

^^^^ That pic from Netherlands, why are there no students / single mums with pushchairs / dogwalkers / iPod daydreamers walking along it ?

scruff - Member

^^^^ That pic from Netherlands, why are there no students / single mums with pushchairs / dogwalkers / iPod daydreamers walking along it ?

Because and angry cyclist will give them what for if they do - and almost everyone rides / has ridden a bike.

I've given up belling or excusing myself when avoiding pedestrians on cyclepaths, I just ride round them now, often very closely.

why are there no students / single mums with pushchairs / dogwalkers / iPod daydreamers walking along it ?

Because it's not "shared use", there's a perfectly good pavement next to it, and, going by a recent visit to Amsterdam, cyclists over there ride like utter mentalists on heavy decrepit bikes that would kill you slowly from tetanus even if you survived the initial impact.

There is also evidence that segregated space for cyclists can simply move the accidents to junctions where the routes cross with other traffic. It certainly makes people feel safer and so more likely to get on a bike, but the obvious answer isn't always correct.

What 'Bez' is talking about, and a truly segrgated infrastructure (like our cycling friends over the water have), are two completely different things.

+1!

We need a *decent* segregated cycling infrastructure, not the half @rsed poor attempt we have at the moment, which is probably why most existing cyclists are against it. Cycling's always going to remain a minority activity until that happens since 99% of the population don't really want to cycle at 20mph in "primary position" just to get to work or the shops safely.

Because it's not "shared use", there's a perfectly good pavement next to it,

As there is on half the cyclepaths I ride, but no-one seesm to have any idea what the red tarmac , white line and pictures of bicycles are for. Although motorists do also think they are a good clear space to park on.

There is also evidence that segregated space for cyclists can simply move the accidents to junctions where the routes cross with other traffic. It certainly makes people feel safer and so more likely to get on a bike, but the obvious answer isn't always correct.

Thats because its not built properly. Cyclists need protecting most at juncitons and thats precisely where most existing cycle lanes dissappear, hence making it more dangerous.

Can you tell me why I get and ad to meet motorcyclist female on your vid dezb 😉

horatio - much of the netherlands does not have a segregated system in towns and villages - it has a 20 mph limit and cyclists get priority. with everyone sharing the road. Main roads you get higher speed limits and segregated cycleways - in towns and villages less so - its 20 mph limits and bike priority

There is also evidence that segregated space for cyclists can simply move the accidents to junctions where the routes cross with other traffic.

Go on then. And don't link to that John Franklin article, it's a load of cherry-picked drivel.

Wasn't so long ago they were talking about increasing clearance distance, but that never happened?

Because it's utterly impossible to police. You going to get a tape measure out and say "I'm sorry sir, you passed that cyclist with only 2' 8" instead of the required 3', have 3 points on your licence." And what happens when I'm filtering up the middle of stationary traffic with 6" space either side, could a driver have a go at me cos I'm not 3ft away? Totally pointless and it's already in the highway code that drivers should give "as much space as they would to a car" anyway.

I'd be happy with being treated the same as a horse - you watch car drivers slow down, pass wide, slowly apply the throttle to keep the noise down yet 5 minutes down the road, they'll be trying to barge past a cyclist, revving and hooting.

Segregated cycle lanes are not the answer and, as Bez says, they often do more harm than good. Just some mutual respect would be nice.

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part of the problem is that people never give that much space to a car either...

You couldn't give that much space to a car and overtake it on that road.... The picture is therefore completely misleading.

There is also evidence that segregated space for cyclists can simply move the accidents to junctions where the routes cross with other traffic.
Go on then. And don't link to that John Franklin article, it's a load of cherry-picked drivel.

from the layperson pov there does seem to be an issue especially those lanes that suddenly (at 90degs - why is it 90degs?) end and require youto rejoin the main carriage way.

Some interesting stuff in here about segregation of motorists, cyclists and pedestrians:
http://tomvanderbilt.com/traffic/the-book/
It doesn't always have the effect that people assume, and in some cases it can actually increase accident rates. This appears to be because motorists drive faster and take less care when segregation is in place.

I think the Netherlands has around 27k km of segregated paths and 9k km of shared routes, so a substantial amount of their network is not segregated. The Dutch have done some interesting stuff with removing road signs and markings in urban spaces, which forces everyone to actually negotiate how they travel through the shared space, reducing accident rates, and in some cases actually reducing journey times because everything flows more efficiently.

I don't think bicycles and other traffic are fundamentally incompatible, and the best way to improve our roads would be to get more people cycling. That seems to be the single biggest factor in why the Dutch system is so successful - everybody cycles, so everyone automatically looks out for bikes and treats them with respect. Vanderbilt writes about how we only really notice what we expect to see. So, as bicycles are relative rare in the UK, motorists are not really looking out for them, and react more slowly when they encounter a bicycle.

But is Dutch cycling safe because it's ubiquitous, or is it ubiquitous because it's safe? David Hembrow (who writes the blog linked to above) makes a really strong case that it's the latter. Holland does have a strong tradition of cycling, but then so did Britain, at one point.

And no you can't do "cycle superhighway" type lanes everywhere but the Dutch seem to be really on top of traffic management, so if you do have to use a road it's generally quiet and the speed of the cars is restricted.

rootes1, what are "those lanes"? Again, if you're talking about cycle lanes in England they could be miles better than what we've got at the moment.

Defend your position - [u]at least[/u] 1/3 of the way out from the kurb - works for me - when I forget I soon get reminded!

typical dutch urban road - note no cycle lanes 20 mph limita dn cyclists have right of way

http://g.co/maps/nmkqa

A road - segregated cycle lane that cannot be used for parking

http://g.co/maps/9zxpu

Minor road - low speed limit - bikes have priority

http://g.co/maps/ydwmv

Defend your position - at least 1/3 of the way out from the kurb - works for me - when I forget I soon get reminded!

I understand the reasons for this - but are people not then worried about being straight rear ended?!

rootes1, what are "those lanes"? Again, if you're talking about cycle lanes in England they could be miles better than what we've got at the moment.

@ MrAgreeable, like this - being spat of the cycle lane at 90degs onto the exit of the roundabout..

this type of thing
http://g.co/maps/5b94p

Some interesting stuff in here about segregation of motorists, cyclists and pedestrians:

http://tomvanderbilt.com/traffic/the-book/
It doesn't always have the effect that people assume, and in some cases it can actually increase accident rates. [b]This appears to be because motorists drive faster and take less care when segregation is in place[/b].

Again, that's generally an argument used against the poorly designed non-segregated cycle lanes we have in this country. Because it gives motorists the impression of segregation, and so they can carry on as they will, so long as they don't go over that white line they believe they're driving with due care. Meanwhile some poor cyclist has their elbow hanging over that line...looking at the curb....looking at the line....nervously looking over their shoulder... That's not segregation.

much of the netherlands does not have a segregated system in towns and villages - it has a 20 mph limit and cyclists get priority.

It's interesting that [i]legally[/i] they have priority. In that if you hit a cyclist, it's your fault. If a cyclist hits you....well it's still your fault. So it's no surprise motorists avoid them like the plague.

The biggest thing in the cycling nations though is the fact that everyone cycles. And even as an 'experienced' cyclist in this country, I rarely feel safe on the roads, and so encouraging cycling to people who need convinced of why they should be cycling is a difficult task. If I didn't do it already....without a perceived safe infrastructure, weighing up the odds, I don't think I'd take it up as a practical means of going from A to B.

I don't think I'd take it up as a practical means of going from A to B.

Correct.

I did 41miles on my bromton yesterday for work purposes ( i use it a lot for site work/ visits)... delightful parts along the Thames to horrors on industrial roads in barking dodging skip wagons..

new blue lane thing along side the A13 was very good though if noisy!

double post

this type of thing
http://g.co/maps/5b94p

Yeah, that's pretty typical of cycle lanes in the UK unfortunately. I'm not talking about a painted-on line, or a pavement that's been magically converted into a cycle track by putting up a blue sign.

I meant proper, separate infrastructure like the Dutch path pictured above. We have a handful of tracks like these in Bristol (sadly far too few) and they are by far the most pleasant places to cycle. This is despite suffering from being overcrowded, meandering or having OTT anti-motorbike measures to negotiate.

I tend to ride where the inside of the passenger side tyre would be on a car, on the country roads I ride it's pretty easy to see where that is. I will move over a bit if it's safe for me to do so (eg not too pot-holed) and safe for car to overtake me.

The thing that astounds me is the number of people who'll overtake on blind corners, utter madness!

some little chav left me about 5 inches earlier, shame I didn't catch him up.

If there is no room to overtake then I am afraid I hog the lane - I have a few sections of my commute that are like this and I have only ever had one beep (well several from one driver) - I slowed and then gave him the bird I am afraid as he then burned rubber only to hit the next jam - cock!

typical dutch urban road - note no cycle lanes 20 mph limita dn cyclists have right of way

http://g.co/maps/nmkqa

A road - segregated cycle lane that cannot be used for parking

http://g.co/maps/9zxpu

Minor road - low speed limit - bikes have priority

http://g.co/maps/ydwmv

Maybe we're arguing the same thing, these are what i'd consider part of a cycling infrastructure.

Using the roads at the moment is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. The roads have just been exculsively designed around motorised traffic, meaning the only safe way to use them is to cyele s if you were motorised traffic, hence the John Franklin book. it all just needs designing with cyclists in mind as well.

Existing cycle paths seem to have been designed to get cyclists out of the way to improve traffic flow and let the cars drive faster.

On the way to woking theres even more poor examples, such as shared-use unlit pavement where you cycle directly towards the oncoming traffic and cross numerous blind driveways. utterly horrendous at night.

Claiming the lane (or "primary road position" if we're being PC) is the recommended way to ride. You might get honked at, but that means you've been seen.

How about some nice big bright 'Give cyclists space' STW stickers for our back windows - spread the word Herefordshire Council did some a few years ago and yous till see them around

There was a "Give Cyclists Room" campaign a few years back which was all about selling stickers. The whole thing folded after a while though (dunno why).

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