So i'll try and keep this short, About 8 months after i had my bike i realised that the rear brake cable which is routed under the BB had rubbed a grove into the frame as the bike went through its travel which was about 5mm deep. I asked both the bike shop and the manufacturer for a warranty as i believed it was not safe and occurred through no fault of my own. Both of them refused blaming the other for the cable placement this left me stuck as i had no faith in the bike shop and i couldn't know who is to blame. despite this i continued riding the bike and then a rock strike occurred and caused a small crack in the frame (carbon) the bike shop or manufacturer would not warranty it which was fair. The manufacturer offered me a crash replacement frame for a discounted price, I agreed based on the shop owner saying that it should cost around £300 -350 he could not give me an exact price. He then offered to omit the cost of the frame build up which was nice and i accepted and i dropped off my bike and paid a deposit.
the new frame arrived and was assembled, I picked it up i was charged £114 initially i thought this to be the remainder of the cost of the frame but i realised the receipt stated it was for the frame build up. I called the shop and they refunded this charge. This refund means that i'm in one of three situations, 1: I owe the shop money for the frame, 2: the frame costs the amount the deposit was(coincident?) 3: The frame was free from the manufacture and the shop has ripped me off. As the shop has not asked for payment for the frame i don't think situation 1 is true and 2 seems too coincidental and that leaves me in situation 3.
To try and resolve this i asked for a invoice, weeks then pass (my fault for not wanting to chase them as i don't like ringing them as they're a nightmare to deal with) i then rang them asking for the invoice and they said they would get it to me promptly. I then had an email asking how much i had paid as "they were having trouble finding it on our computer system". This sent alarm bells off in my head. i didn't want to tell them as i believe they are going to make up a fake invoice so i told them i couldn't remember (not believable i know) and gave them a estimate for what i think i paid. I sent this email 23/09 its now 24/09 and theirs no response.
Does anyone else think this is suspicious? who organises invoice by price?
What's the issue then ? You got a replacement frame for free, built for free ?
I did not get the replacement for free as i paid the 'deposit'
If you've only paid a deposit after cracking your frame then I think you should stay quiet* and enjoy riding it! You say yourself that the manufacturer wasn't going to provide a free replacement, so unlikely they just changed their mind without mentioning it
*or, because STW, own up and offer to pay the rest
I did not get the replacement for free as i paid the ‘deposit’
Well we don't know how much that was but fair point.
Is that a reasonable figure for the parts and work you've had done ?
i never spoke to the manufacturer directly it was always through the shop and if i did have something to pay the shop would have been aware by now. i believe the frame was free from the manufacturer but the shop i trying to wring cash out of me. the notion that the shop seemingly cant provide an invoice is suspect and then they asked for the price to find the invoice. Who titles their invoice files with the price and not the product/customer name? seems madness to me that its this much trouble for an established company to find an invoice
TBH mate i think you're making more of this than you need to.
Lets assume you get an answer and it says "The frame is £400, we'll send you the correct invoice today"
Would that make you happier ?
The shop didn't HAVE to waive the fitting cost, there's no requirement for them to spend 3 hours swapping your whole frame componentry over... they're completely within their rights to have done so.
yeah i'm unwilling to divulge specific numbers due to paranoia regarding employees of said bike shop being present on this forum and putting 2 and 2 together. But it would have been about half the price i was expecting to pay so i got a good deal but i would like to know where my money has gone and the fact they have not chased me for the rest says to me that i shouldn't have paid what i did
I sent this email 23/09 its now 24/09
24hrs isn't that long in the real world.
Re the monies involved, you won't (or at least most preprint wouldn't) have paid more as a deposit than the estimated cost so either the deposit/total was less than you expected (I'm going to guess 200 max since you didn't immediately query 114 more) and you're worried you've "ripped them off" or you're thinking you're owed change from <£300 for something you expected to cost at least that?
If its the former fess up, assuage your guilt and pay what you owe within reason.
If its the later stop pushing it - I think you'll be disappointed and end up finding out you owe more.
I would like to know where my money has gone and the fact they have not chased me for the rest says to me that i shouldn’t have paid what i did
That and the lack of invoice, along with the fact you've paid less than expected would very much suggest to me they've screwed up, not invoiced you enough and someone has processed it through at the shop as an foc warranty job, not a chargeable crash replacement, and they're paying for the frame.
I'll lay odds the ones out of pocket here are the shop, not you who has paid less than 50% of the price they were happy with.
Also, how, exactly, is an invoice from the bike shop going to prove where your money went unless what you really mean is you think Bob the mechanic has trousered your payment?
What do you think?
Possession is 9/10ths of the law. You have a bike that you are happy with. They have your deposit. If you pursue it, very little chance that you will get money back from them, some chance you will end up paying them more. Unless the shop tries to charge you more, I would just ride the bike and forget about it.
I sent this email 23/09 its now 24/09 and theirs no response.
I missed this bit...... made me chuckle
Weeksy they didn't have to waive the cost and i am grateful for that, and if this whole thing ends up costing me money i would be happier as the suspicion of being ripped off is worse than £100-200 is good. Don't you find it at all suspicious that they cant find my invoice and need to know what i paid to find it.
The deposit is probably just down as a random thing as they didn't have a product to book it to, which could make it hard to find if they are just searching through transactions.
Don’t you find it at all suspicious that they cant find my invoice and need to know what i paid to find it
TBH having seen a fair few workshops and invoice systems, not really 🙂 But that's a whole other discussion.
I'm often astounded people actually get their bikes back from some places when they take them in. Cycle shops IME are not very organised.
So basically the issue is, you think they got the frame for free from the supplier ?
Cable rub is a common issue - what you do is helitape those areas, then always check it - MTB cables wear through paint/frames due to the amount of grit.
I helitaped all the frame rub points upon getting my bike. Only replaced the tape on the fork crown. Far cheaper than new frames/fork crowns.
It's the way it is. How you've not noticed a groove wearing into the frame for 8 months I don't know. Tell tale signs are the paint goes first.
How is it the shop or manufacturer's fault for cable rub after 8 months use?
You thought it not safe but carried on riding it?
That is down to you - check more frequently and adjust often.
Adjust the cable so there is more cable in that area or put a spacer of some sort to prevent cable from rubbing.
The cable rub is from your use.
Sounds like you've managed a real bargain for a replacement so I'd suggest spending more time checking bike when cleaning it and enjoy the bargain price of the replacement.
It sounds a lot more like you're being paranoid and they're a bit disorganised.
Just tell them what you've paid them. Of course, they might be ripping you off, but what makes you think that now? Contact mfr directly if you like, but you'll look a bit of a dick.
I get you ... I'm sure the LBS was more aggressive about getting a warranty replacement when it's their money not yours BUT they aren't going to admit it if they did.
I guess its possible and what you're thinking that the earlier damage was their fault hence why they didn't try the warranty BUT now its cracked its warranty.
Right now you have a decent deal... and your reluctance to deal with them earlier (I also sympathise with) is only going to increase.
You'll never really know without dragging a whole load of crap along with you... and going out riding will be far more healthy mentally and physically.
As the shop said the frame itself is directly from the manufacture so the price is set by them and i am buying it through the shop. i want to pay the amount it costs hence why i want the invoice. the fact that i have asked for this invoice several times and still don't have it is suspect to me. Anyone have any idea as to why a price of the invoice is at all necessary to locating it on a computer
i want to pay the amount it costs hence why i want the invoice
Why ? The warranty will still expire at the same time whether you pay £0 or £1000 ?
Anyone have any idea as to why a price of the invoice is at all necessary to locating it on a computer
We have no idea, we don't work for the company, we don't even know who they are.
. i want to pay the amount it costs hence why i want the invoice.
The invoice won't tell you what it cost.
Do you mean you want their invoice from their supplier? If you do I know I'd be politely telling you to go fornicate alone were I in their shoes.
(edit: Also
To try and resolve this i asked for a invoice, weeks then pass
If you do, if the service dept is anything like ours at their supplier it'll be months before the shop get an invoice.)
Anyone have any idea as to why a price of the invoice is at all necessary to locating it on a computer
At a guess, because the invoice is nothing more than a credit card receipt at the moment, if they're lucky, stapled to a slip of paper saying something like deposit. They aren't trying to find your invoice, they're trying to create one which says "£350 crash replacement, 150 deposit paid dd/mm, build fee waived, total due £200"
Are you a regular user with a fake ID? Very odd first post on this forum.
For those saying the cable rub is my fault i get your point but personally i think a bike should be designed and assembled to not rub before its sold on but thats another discussion.
Weeksy- yes i believe thats what has happened
Stevextc - Yes you hit the nail on the head
...i think a bike should be designed and assembled to not rub before its sold on but thats another discussion.
Is this your first mountain bike!? There's a whole market in anti cable rub stickers and frame protection.
Time to move on and choose a new shop for your next purchase. I can't see much point in chasing something like this entirely on the principle that the shop "might" have been telling you porkies. It would be different if you were significantly out of pocket over the situation, but sounds more like you've actually lucked in here.
Muffin Man, The rub was under the BB, (not a place people tend to look at often) Normally with full outers that go under the BB and the bike been a Full sus, Most manufacturers will have some figure of the gap(loop) from BB to Outer/hose in the manual so when the suspension moves/full compressed it does not rip/rub/pull/gost shift etc cable/hose from it's position.
Though saying there are some systems you can set but if there is no way of "holding" the cable in place it move over time.
Anyone have any idea as to why a price of the invoice is at all necessary to locating it on a computer
Because it's not in the til in as "tomafox95's frame replacement deposit" it's one of 20 "Misc cash item" sales on that particular day as the guy on the counter was in a hurry?
this. I have had to do exactly the same in the past. Sometimes the price is the only unique thing you can search for (in my case it was when I'd done a large volume of similar jobs for the same customer all marked down as "misc"). I'm not saying this is good accounting practice though 😃Because it’s not in the til in as “tomafox95’s frame replacement deposit” it’s one of 20 “Misc cash item” sales on that particular day as the guy on the counter was in a hurry?
I have assumed that the manufacturer would supply an invoice with the frame and i have asked for that invoice. the shop informed that i am buying the frame directly off the mfr not from them so any invoice supplied with the frame from the mfr should be mine?
All i want is some documentation regarding the cost of my frame, the fact that the shop have not chased me for the rest of the frame money despite me bringing it to their attention makes me feel as if i don't own them any more money and if i don't own them any money i find it hard to believe the deposit was the total cost despite the owner estimating a higher price.
Is this your first mountain bike!? There’s a whole market in anti cable rub stickers and frame protection.
and there are also frame designs out there with questionable routing. e.g. Devinci changed that Django (think it was the Django anyway) as its cables would saw away the frame if they weren't absolutely perfect
Are the shop chasing you for more money, over the as yet undisclosed "deposit" you paid?
To be fair, it sounds to me like you complained about some normal wear and tear / lack of maintenance (cable rub doesn't appear over night to that extent), they brushed you off politely, then luckily for you your frame cracked and they sorted you with what is essentially a heavily (?) discounted crash replacement, which you haven't actually paid anything for.
What's the problem exactly?
All i want is some documentation regarding the cost of my frame
Why ?
Weeksy - because i believe what i paid for the frame is wrong whether the true value is more or less at this point i want to know
Steve_B77 - No they are not chasing me for anything and you may consider cable rub normal wear and tear but i don't as people above have pointed out they're many ways to prevent rub (e.g. stickers) and i still think to sell a product that through normal use results in potentially a written off frame after what is not along time i think is unacceptable. Cable rub is easily avoidable and that the fact that the onus is on the consumer and not the manufacturer or the person who assembled the frame to put in place measures is wrong. disagree with me if you may but i would like the industry to recognise this problem but i believe they conveniently ignore it as a lack of cable rub is not exactly a marketable feature and would intrude on other design requirements that are easily marketable e.g. aesthetics
Who says it wasn't your fault ? With cables that run under the BB all it takes is you to pull it slightly too tight and it's then you causing it to rub under suspension compression. Not the manufacturer, not the LBS, but you.... you may not have even known it at the time. But could easily have been your fault entirely.
Consider the fact if 20 out of 20 people are saying "Forget it and move on." then maybe you're like a dog with a bone for no reason.
It's possible the LBS spoke to the supplier and had some sort of reciprocal arrangement, maybe "Well if you buy 5 of these new bikes, we'll throw in the frame for that bloke" or we'll add it to another order some time down the line...
So they don't actually have a 'cost' defined, but one kind of exists.
No they are not chasing me for anything
So you've got a new frame, not paid anything for it and yet you are still complaining?
Cable rub is easily avoidable
I sincerely hope you've placed a patch of 'copter tape or similar protective sticker in the same place on your new frame, as you say, it's easily avoidable 😉
Weeksy – because i believe what i paid for the frame is wrong whether the true value is more or less at this point i want to know
So I'll repeat:
The invoice won’t tell you what it cost [them]
Also, how, exactly, is an invoice from the bike shop going to prove where your money went unless what you really mean is you think Bob the mechanic has trousered your payment?
Do you mean you want their invoice from their supplier?
Steve_B77 - As I've stated i have paid for the replacement and no i didn't but protective tape where it was rubbing the manufacturer did ;). For the record i am not complaining i am just trying to find out were my money was spent and i think that a perfectly reasonable desire
Dangeourbrain - the invoice would be from the manufacturer because according to the shop the transaction was between me and the mfr due to it being a crash replacement frame. And in my experience invoices usually state price, not sure about the bike world but i cant recall one where it did not have a price
Another thread to add to the 'Thank **** I don't have to work in a bike shop' file.
Dangeourbrain – the invoice would be from the manufacturer because according to the shop the transaction was between me and the mfr due to it being a crash replacement frame. And in my experience invoices usually state price, not sure about the bike world but i cant recall one where it did not have a price
OK, so, if it's between you and the mfr,
(a) why did you pay any deposit to the bike shop?
(b) why are you now asking the bike shop for an invoice for the frame (given they haven't sold it you)
(c) why not tell them how much you paid since the only invoice you should get from the shop is for the deposit you've (inexplicably) paid them.
(d) why not ask the mfr for your invoice since the transaction is between you and them?
Yes I'd expect a price on an invoice but very much I'd only expect the price I'm required to pay to be shown, no chance I'd expect supplier pricing to be shown. If that invoice is from the bike shop to you, it should show the price you pay to them. If its from the supplier to you I wouldn't expect it to go anywhere near the shop or be supplied by them.
As I’ve stated i have paid for the replacement and no i didn’t but protective tape where it was rubbing the manufacturer did ;). For the record i am not complaining i am just trying to find out were my money was spent and i think that a perfectly reasonable desire
For any of a large number of reasons you probably won't find out where your money went and even if you do...
I have assumed that the manufacturer would supply an invoice with the frame and i have asked for that invoice. the shop informed that i am buying the frame directly off the mfr not from them so any invoice supplied with the frame from the mfr should be mine?
Do you have that in writing ???
Like weeksy said, it could have been part of a deal, like others have said it's probably down as Misc...
I'm guessing not so in the end what would you do? (that's rhetoric)
What you might want to ask yourself is "would you rather be correct than happy".
Had a guy last week wanted to return his week old bike, loved the bike but disliked the Matt finish, didn't want a new bike or a refund though. Was wondering what we could do...... erm.....
having thought about it the shop said the frame a was directly from the factory and was bypassing the mfr uk distributor so technically i did purchase the frame from the shop so i assume that's why i paid a deposit that should clear up some hings
Having thought about it i realise i was incorrect earlier what i meant to say is that the frame was bought by the shop from the mfr (bypassed the Uk distributor)the only reason i know this is that they told me this was the case and therefore couldn't give me an accurate delivery date so yeah i did buy it from the shop i suppose. and i payed a deposit because i was asked to.
Sounds like you’re being framanoid
Lol
Ride On and be free my child
bypassing the mfr uk distributor
There is a reasonable chance that will screw any invoice you're hoping to see for the frame...
Bypassing most likely means the distributor issues the stock to the shop at 0 value having been issued credit by the manufacturer for an item they already have on stock.
