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doomanic
Full MemberOther than not jet washing the motor, there’s nothing a user can do to prolong the life of it in normal use.
Don't lug high gears and have the motor turning at lower speeds - this pulls more current and increases internal temperature. Better to spin at higher cadence and have the motor running at higher speeds for lower current/temps.
Putting them on a roof-rack and driving at 80 mph through torrential rain is probably going to have the same effect.
Hahaha, you've clearly never tried to lift a full beanz e-mtb onto a car roof. The borrowed Turbo Levo I've been using weights well over 50lbs, which is fine in a compact kettlebell say, but tricky in an ungainly, bike-shaped package.
Anyway, I've never been interested in e-bikes as either a potential buyer or a hater. I simply just don't care either way. But a very kind mate of mine loaned me a 2017 Specialized Turbo Levo to help me get back out after 15 months of long covid and it was great for that. The battery has failed twice while I've had it, the first time I cracked open the battery and cleaned out the water and dried it out, started working again - recognised issue with switch cover, recalled on some models for fix - the second time it went dead, I cracked it open again and sprayed it with Isopropyl alcohol and left it to sit and it started working again.
New batteries are £740. That puts me off for starters.
If the motor dies, people do exist who can rebuild them - if it were my bike I'd get it rebuilt with uprated parts for peace of mind, but it isn't.
Bottom line: if either the motor or the battery dies out of warranty, you're left with either a substantial bill or a near useless heap of parts.
I don't want one anyway, I like riding bikes and as I've recovered, that's what I'm increasingly doing and a I like being fit. I find riding an e-bike a bit like everything happening in fast forward, which isn't really my bag. So for now, no thanks.
Dunno if this supports the OP or
not.
Coming up 3yo Focus Jam2 and motor been fine for 1000 miles and use in all weathers and winter use. Not an avid bike cleaner tho more a let dry and dust off advocate.
On other hand battery cells died about 2.5 years in so a new £500 battery needed.
Part of me agrees with OP and shouldn’t see motor or battery failures so early.
On other hand contrast with say £4-£5k normal bike. What price a new cassette or whatever other components when they fail? Into the high hundreds too.
Morale of story expensive bikes have expensive parts.
On other hand contrast with say £4-£5k normal bike. What price a new cassette or whatever other components when they fail? Into the high hundreds too.
Don't you also need to replace cassette and other components on your eBike too. Presumably the cassette even more often?
E Bikes why do we put up with it?
Let me answer this for you.. because their ****ing brilliant.
I've done 5K miles on my two e-bikes (plenty do much more), and though they been far from trouble free (I own a Levo..) they also had great support from the manufacturer & ridden year round, regardless of the weather (more likely to be ridden in winter than my manual bike ever would have), and I will not be going back to a manual as my main bike.
As for the cost
New batteries are £740. That puts me off for starters.
If the motor dies, people do exist who can rebuild them
... and it will be the same for the batteries, already I've seen non OEM Bosch batteries being advertised. Eurobike had motors from other manufacturers that fitted in shimano mounting.. For the 3rd party manufacturers, I see this as a definitely selling point, to upgrade/replace faulty motors. Were still at the infancy of this industry, but if eurobike is anything to go by, it's huge & not going away
I’m hoping that by the time my kids are big enough to regularly want to ride the whole of a loop (and need towing up hills on their little pedal bikes) ebikes will be reliable enough that I won’t have to worry about them dying prematurely.
Although at the rate they’re progressing I think I’ll just be hoping for something to be in stock.
Although we did the maths and as we’d need one for each of us at the moment that would be £10K+ and as we’d currently average 1 ride a week we’d be better off spending £140 a day hiring them and not needing to worry about longevity and servicing, etc.
We’ll probably bite the billet in a year or so and just keep the Hardtail for days without the kids
Good point from Scotroutes about hiring. Say I went to Swaledale once a month & rented a full Susser from the bike centre it would cost £2880 over 3 years. No warranty or breakage worries, no charging or cleaning either.
Not much good if you're using one all the time though.
I might do that.
Bottom line: if either the motor or the battery dies out of warranty, you’re left with either a substantial bill or a near useless heap of parts.
I'll probably end up getting one when I get too old and broken to ride a normal mtb but the above is the main reason I haven't bought one so far. I've not even tried riding one and being fairly skinny and weighing less than 11 stone I don't think it would be much fun on the type of trails I like riding, no sense in making the climbing easier but the tight steep twisty descents more difficult and tiring
no breakage worries
Read the small print very carefully...
Read the small print very carefully…
Well I meant within reason obsviously.
Eurobike had motors from other manufacturers that fitted in shimano mounting..
I saw one on emtbn metioned... looks like it's really aimed at OEMs though...
https://www.oli-ebike.com/motors/sport/
Also had some lightweight ones from these guys
https://www.maxonbikedrive.com/en/e-bike-system/bikedrive-air
and these
http://www.ananda.com.cn/index.php/index/index.html
which looked like Shimanos commuter/hybrid type mounts
I see the ebike thing as like buying into iPhones at the iPhone - iPhone 5/6 stage. They’re good, but the incremental progression is so fast that now is the wrong time to invest as a better one is always around the corner.
That and the price, but that’s for a different thread!
On my 3rd bosch ebike with no issues, used all year in all conditions. I never wash mine with a hose or jet wash it’s always a wipe clean, always remove covers and on earlier gen ones put waterproof grease around seals. Water or washing is mainly what kills them.
I did have one specialized last year and it did 2 motors in 2 months so I went back to bosch.
But yeah some do appear to have issues but it’s not as bad as it seems
It's a weird one, the motors themselves aren't exactly technically advanced, same old stator/rotor style that's in lots of motors driving everything from a hand held drill to larger industrial kit, these shouldn't be failing any time soon, they should last a hell of a long time.
Same with batteries, this is old technology repackaged for ebikes, again nothing fancy, it should last a predicted amount of time and charges.
It's the controllers and wiring for me that are crap, 5k or more ebikes with wiring looms specs that you'd see on kit that's protected or less prone to water intrusion/ingress, i know it's not an easy job to make that area more watertight, but surely the connectors/looms could be better protected and stored, most ebikes i see have the wiring rammed up in the seat tube or above the mounting, no real dedicated protection, just sat there exposed to any ingress.
E bikes are the new toy for the stupid rich people who couldn’t care less about a battery or motor failure which would cost some people 2 weeks wage to replace as they have more money than sense. The manufacturers must be falling over themselves laughing as they stick a few quids worth of battery and motor into one of their lardy MTBs then mark them up a couple of £k extra. Seriously have you seen the spec of one of these turds?
Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be any impetus to make the things reliable as these folk seem happy to accept failures with a shrug of the shoulders as they can afford to offload them when it gets too much and buy another, yet more e waste and normal waste, as no one else wants to take on something so risky.
A close friend works in one shop as a mechanic for one of the biggest brands and he wouldn’t buy one even at his reduced price he can pay as they as so unreliable. The often used phrase “sold another warranty job today” accompanies e bike purchases. And even years into selling them the manufacturers won’t sort out basic problems with reliability which have been reported to them time and time again. And this is a company with a VERY good warranty and customer service record.
Hang on, I’ve not finished insulting the ebike riders so please read on 😂😂😂 why is every ebike MTB rider so chuffin fat? Enduro top clingfilmed across their man boobs, rucksack straining the suspension with its load of pies and pork scratching, the rider sweating like a whore on sailors payday even on turbo mode as the crappy motor struggles to haul the gargantuan combined weight of the gas piped and tractor tyred monstrosity and it’s equally disturbingly hefty cargo. They must get back home and feel really happy that the extra few miles they rode compared to what their body could actually do and what the electric bariatric scooter has propelled them along, as they mainline another XL mixed kebab and chips for supper.
I’m fat and slow and I could probably stretch to an eMTB if I wanted but seeing the culture around them has instead inspired me to lay off the Gregg’s, lose some weight and enjoy riding an old fashioned bike a bit faster. 😂😂
I’m always hesitant to post on threads like this due to Sod’s law but my Levo has done about 3000 miles in all weathers over the last 3 years and nothing ebike-related has broken (shock blew and fork started creaking though!) It had a few moments of weirdness in the last year but it turned out to be due to the magnetic battery connector and magnetic speed sensor picking up ferrous dust, so now I know to clean that off before it becomes problematic.
I should probably add that I don’t know anyone who avoids cleaning bikes as much as I do, so I’m not sure it’s ever had a hose near it let alone a jet washer!
I do have a problem with how fast it eats chains and cassettes, am curious to hear if that new Shimano range has better durability.
b230ftw you could be on to something though i must most definitely be the exception to your rule.
Not only am i not Mega Rich, im not Mega Fat either, 11st 4 and 6ft, whats Greggs? 🤔 I ride on average 400 us miles a month less than a quarter of that with assistance and yes i do agree i dont need an E Bike but as you well know bringing want and need into a discussion on here isnt going to end well 😎
I've done around 2000 miles on my Overvolt with no issues (just come back from a ride!).
My Liv Intrigue is currently getting fixed at the local Giant dealer, as it suffered sensor issues due to water getting in (which is apparently quite common on Giants).
Both have been ridden in the rain and through water crossings, I think the Overvolt copes with it better. I'm wondering if having an integrated battery can cause more issues.
It isn't just the water (whether weather or washer), but also the riding style. Slow RPM high torque riding is bad for the motor and can damage the sprag clutches used.
I also think that the suspension kinematics - chain growth specifically - can overload the sprag clutch too. I would be interested to see the different failure rates for Levo FSR vs Levo hardtail.
The sprag clutch bearings on the Brose 1.3 and 2.1 motors were rated to 250nm. The motor puts out 90nm. An enthusiastic rider should easily be able to muster another 160nm (Track cyclists have been recorded at 260nm), then add in the extra torque from soem dynamic chain growth and you have failure in a brand new motor, never even exposed to water.
The updates to the Brose 2.2 motor include better sealing, stronger sprags, and software update to cut motor power on g-out, reducing the chain growth risk.
TL:DR There are a number of factors that effect motor reliability.
I'm neither rich nor fat b230ftw mate, and as I don't drink or fritter money on other daft things like cars, motorbikes, expensive clothes or the latest iPhone, I'm quite happy having lots of top quality fun on my ebike. 😁
Best of luck avoiding Greggs.
b230.
I'm unemployed, not rich, not fat, wouldn't touch a Greggs if you paid me and own an Ebike but ride one of my other bikes if I want to go for a long ride.
You OK hun. You seem a bit distressed.
Maybe its because you've only ridden your MTB twice this year...
@b230ftw I was at FOD a few times this summer and was surprised how many young fit kids (kids means under 30 to me now) blasting out runs and laps ebikes, up until then I was of the opinion that they tended to be used by the kind of people you described. Personally we’re considering them because pedalling a loop of Verderers, Cwmbran, Llandegla, etc with a 16kg toddler sitting in front of you on a KRS seat is bloomin’ hard-work and not that fun. An ebike meant we could get a few laps in and then nip up the fire road to just ride best bits. Both my (nearly) 3 year olds absolutely loved the 3 hours of (mainly) blasting downhill (be them easy blues) runs compared to the previous time when they were done after one loop of Verderers.
And we’re not even talking about when they’re too big for the KRS and we need to tow 2 small children uphill.
Yes they’re expensive and I’m not quite convinced on their reliability yet but we’ll probably have to get 2 in next 18 months.
Bikes are bikes, I’m still not sure why bikers rag on all other forms (roadies vs mtb vs ebikes, etc). Remember when people hated disc brakes, front suspension, rear suspension and droppers when each was new. And now they’re all great
there’s nothing a user can do to prolong the life of it in normal use.
What about strain on the motor ?. You've 12 gears(Usually), the motor provides the torque, but I reckon if you dont use the gears as in going up to 8,9,10 etc theres more strain on the motor and possibly that plays a part in it breaking down prematurely.
Im not really doing really steep hills but as such am probably a bit guilty of this only ever using gears 3-6, because the motor really does the work, so its easy to forget about the actual strain on the motor in use.
Also not sure if my style of riding one is going to have a bad effect. I dont select a gear and keep the cadence to a level where im producing pretty much exactly the correct rotation for the set speed, rather I pedal, then freewheel, pedal, allow it to drop slightly below the 15mph, then pedal again to bring it back to the 15/16mph, so the motor is stopping and starting rather than being on all the time.
we’ll probably have to get 2 in next 18 months
Which is a choice you can only make because you can afford to.
My spesh has done a year so far with no issues as did my previous apart from being delivered by a rubbish shop with a dead battery.
No idea on mileage, I don't track that.
It's my only bike and if it was in for repair I would rather do something else rather than have to ride a pedalbike again.
If it fails out of warranty then I'll pay for repair, I see it as just part of ownership.
@scotroutes hopefully if we can get enough overtime in between now and then. I’ll just have to put my dream of a custom Curtis on hold for another few years. Lol.
Whatever maximises the amount of fun the kids get to have.
I’d still be keeping my hardtail for when the kids aren’t around.
@b30ftw
Oh dear 😯
I’m fat and slow
Sorry, but why is this 😕 if you rode more, and put more effort into it, you could live up to your own expectations of others.
See people are getting all defensive now 😂😂
“ Sorry, but why is this 😕 if you rode more, and put more effort into it, you could live up to your own expectations of others.”
😂😂😂😂
I'm loving this thread!
Don't do it!!! You can get a sausage and bean slice 😉
I'll be tempted in an ebike in a few years, when I'm convinced of the reliability and hopefully the cost drops a bit!
Let's keep the banter going
If there is too much strain on the motor, you'd think the designers would limit the torque in the controller. But the actual electrical motor part of the drive unit rarely fails.
It mostly seems to be bearings, sensors going out of range, or electronics getting damaged from water. It's a load bearing part of the bike and subject to a huge amount of force, knocks and vibration.
I think it'd be a better design to isolate the motor and electronics from this, and just use a normal replaceable bottom bracket and crank axle, maybe driving the chain via an "idler" type pulley, but I'm not an engineer. Maybe it's just too heavy that way.
b230ftw, excellent rant, ha ha! With the odd exception (e-folks on here perhaps) I think you're pretty spot on.
pretty spot on
Slow biffer moans about other slow biffers getting more miles in?. 🙂
You also have to teach people not to ride them through a bog and then blast them with a pressure washer. Putting them on a roof-rack and driving at 80 mph through torrential rain is probably going to have the same effect.
The bike industry could also get some lessons in writing a decent spec sheet before getting their crayons out, working out all the failure modes, the designing and testing the end product to make sure all the failure modes are covered. But alas, that's the proper and expensive way of doing things, the bean counters and marketing/****erteeering departments arnt interested in that, so the end buyer does all the testing and validation, with the warranty team drowning in the fallout and a supply chain run by kids.
I bought a Scott ransom so I could still ride with my mates, it's alright, it hasn't shit itself yet, although it's chewed through a drivetrain in 400 miles (because it's not been designed for an extra 500ish watts).
Going up, ebike all day long (I can do more runs) but on the way down, geometron all the time, the moped just feels dull and in involving.
Quite interested in the keneno sl, except it's carbon and a bit too new, aluminum and a bit more beta testing by the end consumer and I might be tempted.
I think most eBike owners could learn a lot about how to keep their bikes running from Deliveroo riders who:
- wrap the battery in cling film and gorilla tape
- cover the vents on the motors in gorilla tape and what appears to be large quantities of rubber or poly bags
😂😂
Pinkbike touched on this in their latest podcast
Return rates for batteries & motors are apparently high, something that most reviews, which are only a few months long max, don't really experience. Or owners that only have bikes for a year or so before selling them on....
Which is the next worry
Buying a second hand ebike is a huge gamble, what chances the battery & motor are going to go, out of warranty you're looking at a potential money pit, not to mention a nightmare chasing spares, even more so at the moment
The tech will settle down & improve eventually, tho supply chain shenanigans might mean that's a while off
My old bafang bbs02 is still going strong after a few year and thousands of miles, reckon it'll got forever tbh. 😆
We have an 8 year old Sparta with Bosch electrical gear on it still going strong on the work bike fleet. It has had a new display unit 3 years ago due to a client trying to plug it into a PC! (Used for re-programming the kit at the dealer sir not downloading your ride for Strava).
Battery range still as good as the day it arrived and as a hire bike it leads a hard life.
Seems to be a world of difference between eBikes used for commuting and the ones used for mountain biking. Everyone I know with an eBike has had motor issues, most have had one motor replacement, and several have had more than one. Pedal strikes and water don't suit them, and I'm sure that level of warranty claims doesn't suit manufacturers either. They'll either get a lot better or a lot more expensive. Or both, most likely.
I think it’d be a better design to isolate the motor and electronics from this, and just use a normal replaceable bottom bracket and crank axle, maybe driving the chain via an “idler” type pulley, but I’m not an engineer. Maybe it’s just too heavy that way.
Like Rocky Mountain do then. The downside is a more complex and slightly noisier drivetrain.
I had thought a new shimano 8000 motor would be £1000 or so. looks like about £700. Far from cheap but if it ever failed that’s not a cost I’d baulk at to keep bike going. So long as it’s a motor every few years not every few months!
if it ever failed that’s not a cost I’d baulk at to keep bike going. So long as it’s a motor every few years not every few month
Really ? That seems MASSIVE to me, especially factoring in things like drivetrain use, brakes, servicing shocks and forks as well, etc etc... Seems crazy talk to add on another £700 say every 2 years... i certainly wouldn't be happy.
Shimano are a slightly weird kettle of fish when it comes to motors, as you can't work on them at all.
There are various companies who work on Bosch & Brose motors who upgrade bearings, circuit boards, belts, clutches, etc.
I haven't had any motor issues in ~18 months of ownership of 2 bikes (touch wood). The only problem I have had is a pinched loom wire, and mine gets ridden hard to be fair.
singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/e-bikes-why-do-we-put-up-with-it/page/3/#post-12029884
Yeah big cost but arguably no worse than say a new high end cassette chain rear mech needing replaced every few years. Agree be gutting if failed early but if did it would be warranty job anyway. 3-4 years you’re into mileage where on a normal bike big replacement costs kick in too. The good think about my focus is it runs 10sp so drivetrain spares relatively cheap.
I still come back to the point which is expensive bikes have expensive replacement parts. Whether that be a motor or battery on ebike, or high end drive train etc on regular bikes. Can’t afford to maintain or replace then maybe don’t buy expensive in first place.
Seems crazy talk to add on another £700 say every 2 years
So less than 7 quid a week.
Seems a fair price to pay to me.
How much does it cost to park at a trail centre for a day?
Mountain biking even on an Ebike is still not that expensive on the grand scale of things.