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Is that really the kind of power they can produce? I presumed you'd get about 300w overall from an unfit rider which is what a decent xc rider can produce on their own for sustained periods.
If sprinted up a hill at 600w I'd expect a lot of wheelspin and scrabble. The thought of an increasing number of people regularly doing this on heavy bikes and chunky tires is pretty alarming.
I'd ban them from off road personally. Fantastic vehicle for road journeys sure but our woodlands are in a precarious state as it is without adding to the erosion. Don't forget all that mass coming back down the hill will tear up the descents too, especially if the rider likes to skid.
You could always licence them to those who could prove they had a vaiid reason for needing them.
I’d ban them from off road personally. Fantastic vehicle for road journeys sure but our woodlands are in a precarious state as it is without adding to the erosion. Don’t forget all that mass coming back down the hill will tear up the descents too, especially if the rider likes to skid.
As someone riding one due to disability that would make me mighty sad. Me plus bike is also probably lighter than quite a few on here... I'm not sure about power output but I don't tend to do much scrabbling up climbs, less than I did on a normal bike when my legs worked better.
If sprinted up a hill at 600w I’d expect a lot of wheelspin and scrabble. The thought of an increasing number of people regularly doing this on heavy bikes and chunky tires is pretty alarming.
Part of that reason is because if you were putting out 700Watts you would be as jerky as hell and probably out of the saddle. Heavy as hell with the rider seated (I would imagine) means a lot more traction and a lot less scrabbling. Still not enough juice for sustaining 14.5mph up a steep hill mind. I understand one of the biggest benefits is the torque not the power - being able to half pedal over obstacles where you don't have ground clearance to do full rotations and hop over stuff.
I too am mixed about them off road - huge advocate of them on road but see less of an argument for their need off road.
I'm 100% fine with them.
Trail erosion, please, come on, let's keep some perspective. It's just not a major issue, no more so than half a dozen normal bikes. I'd bet more trail damage is done by riders on normal bikes after rainfall than e bikes on normal rides.
How about fat bikes, do we van them because they're heavy and leave a wider path with fat tyres.
As long as they're not chipped, I think they're a brilliant idea.
Yeah but weeksy, what if the majority of riders were on them? It's got to have more of an impact.
Can I just say for all those who a riding them because of a medical condition, I support you wholeheartedly. If their use off road was limited to people who genuinely needed them then I'm sure we'd all be united in our support.
It's the slide toward mass participation some of us worry about. I came across quite a few last weekend and they are simply something different to a bicycle. The riders were bombing along whilst seated, weaving through other cyclists. It looked so motorised. Horrible whine coming from the motor too. Not exactly 'back to nature'.
If it annoys me as a cyclist then god knows the hatred we'll all inevitably get from the walkers.
malvern rider – You seem to be focussing on the ‘assist’ word rather than the ‘motor’ word.
Well yes, that's what differentiates between a 'motorbike' and a motor-assisted bicycle.
You say potater, I say tomater.
The rest of your argument didn't refute anything I've said so far.
If their use off road was limited to people who genuinely needed them
Nobody genuinely needs one as it is not mandatory to be able to ride a bike. I find the 'its okay if you are disabled' a bit of a patronising point.
I don't have a eHorse in the race (currently a singlespeed masochist offroad and a 3 spd cargo bike onroad), but can someone more sciencey/informed than I show where the argument/data/conclusion falls down in the OP's linked article?
Also this one:
(First thing that comes to mind is that the route seems flat)
I'm currently at my sister's oop north and finished servicing her Cube e-bike this morning, brakes and gears. It's a fairly well specced hardtail pedelec. Her husband bought it to stay active after being diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and, now he's dead, she (non-driver, dodgy hips) uses it to get about.
Out of curiosity I just took it for a spin, pointing it up a hill and engaging turbo mode. Went straight up at 15mph. I was turning the pedals but that was all. I certainly wasn't expending any energy or getting a workout. These things aren't bicycles, they're motorbikes.
run that thing on turbo everywhere and you won't get very far.
I think it's good that they piss some people off! 😆 Learn to live and let live people!
Went straight up at 15mph. I was turning the pedals but that was all. I certainly wasn’t expending any energy or getting a workout.
turning the pedals but that was all...
...any energy
Are your being literal or exaggerating for effect? Unless the bike was chipped the very minimum energy you were contributing was 25%. If you were sustaining 15mph, that would have been all you. I have no idea what you call a hill or your fitness level so it could be the task was slight and you are awsums but ANY energy is just not physically possible.
Conversely, the assist downhill stops at 15mph, and all you're left with is a sluggish, heavy bike spinning out on a 1x11 drivetrain with a tiny, twiddly chainring.
Bicycles for people who don't really like riding bikes?
I'm 51 but I'm fitter than most people half my age precisely because I've been riding bikes up hills for the last 28 years or so. Which IS the point, because that wouldn't be the case if I'd been riding around on an e-bike. It wasn't 'all me' at all, that's the point of an e-bike, it takes away the effort (and the resulting fitness gain). I just sat there at the maximum it'd do, and it was effectively effortless.
kinda the point of turbo, do it on eco next time. (which if you spent anytime on them you'll realise you need to use most of the time)
ultimately they are different from normal bikes they will do more. Get used to them, they ain't doing anything but going to get more popular.
Are your being literal or exaggerating for effect? Unless the bike was chipped the very minimum energy you were contributing was 25%. If you were sustaining 15mph, that would have been all you. I have no idea what you call a hill or your fitness level so it could be the task was slight and you are awsums but ANY energy is just not physically
Well some friends took one and couple of reasonable roady climbers and a not so fit ebiker up a hill in bath , he blew them out the water. No way was the ebike power output 250w + output of rider going up the hills.
I think they're great - whether it's to get more smiles per ride, cut out pointless climbing suffering (plenty of riders aren't afflicted with the need to struggle which seems par for the course with many "cyclists"), focus on the bits they care about, keep up with faster/younger mates or just make every ride count in an increasingly hectic and time poor world. Or maybe they do have an ailment. WGAF - if people are outside enjoying themselves, that is ALL that matters.
Part of me wants to get one (having tried a few at various events just for fun) purely so I can trigger the shit out of purist types who think suffering on climbs is a badge of honour. I'll be the one wheelying uphill in turbo laughing like a madman.
Let's remember, this is all grown adults dicking round in the woods on bikes. Try not to take it too seriously, it's just bikes.
Well some friends took one and couple of reasonable roady climbers and a not so fit ebiker up a hill in bath , he blew them out the water. No way was the ebike power output 250w + output of rider going up the hills.
I'm sensing maths is not a great forum strength. What in what you have written is relevant to what you quoted of mine?
A good point was made above though - if you want to travel any reasonable distance on an ebike you need to mainly use the lower modes.
”Well some friends took one and couple of reasonable roady climbers and a not so fit ebiker up a hill in bath , he blew them out the water.“
im sceptical of the claim that they were reasonable tbh, i used to be reasonably fit, and i now ride an ebike, i doubt an ebike would keep up with someone who is reasonably fit.
No way could i, on my ebike, keep up with what I could do in my 20s/30s.
not even close, in terms of speed or distance.
so your friends are exaggerating for effect, or the roadies they used weren’t that fit.
The main exercise benefit of an ebike is they encourage people to actually go out, compared to not riding a normal bike.
I do use mine in boost for entire rides.
to whoever said it won't get you very far - it'll do around 4500ft of steep climbing (to gauge the gradients that's in about 12miles. (so around 5miles of steep non pedally descending) in about an hour and a 20mins.
On flatter rides (say <1000ft total elevation) in boost 12 miles only uses just one bar of battery (1/5)
As you can see. it's climbing that uses most battery. Not distance. Dropping down assistance modes makes a lot less difference to battery consumption than most people think. How you pedal them makes more difference.
There's a ridiculous amount of just plain wrong information about emtbs online. From both ebike owners and haters. Unsurprisingly many here are doing a sterling job keeping it stocked up.
It's also very strange reading the clauses of where/who/why/what is apropriate ebike use some of you dream up. When in actual fact your true issue is simply not being able to deal with the fear of something new and unfamiliar encroaching on "your" hobby .
Hint: it doesn't really affect you in the slightest.
A lot of emtb riders have been riding mtb for decades and decades. I know I have.
to the guy who feels "annoyed" by the sound of an ebike's motor.
I genuinely pity your fragile mental health.
Geex, yep some folk need to get a grip of themselves.
i’ve said this before, nobody in the real world ever says anything negative about my ebike.
the negativity only happens online.
On the climb not the flat .. you can be sceptical but what I’m saying is that on a step climb this bike seemed to be putting out way more power than the 250w + rider output.
if your going up hills in bath at 15 mph your gonna be kicking out a helluva lot of watts
I’m not arguing about the riding a bike thing so keep you pants on :-]
it just intrigued us how the 250w motor was possibly churning out more like 400 - 500W perhaps it’s a faulty batch 🙂
For the hard of thinking that say it has a "motor" so it's a motorbike here's a simple demonstration.
First up an E bike with a good rider on board.
Second up here's a motorbike with a good rider on board*.
*Loving the way he makes coming up short look like it was part of the plan.😵
So as you can see it's quite easy to tell the difference...
250w is continuous rating, ie will run forever without overheating. in reality they can output more, 36v bike with a 15amp controller can peak at 540w for example, even though continuous is rated at 250w.
Anyway I’ve got the Phasor cycles no 2 sat in my cupboard from the old lipo and crystalyte days !!
So I’m actually an early adopter 🙂
Dudeof doom, im not sceptical that it happened, i just don’t reckon the roadies in this instance were all that fit.
i’ve used strava on my ebike, i haven’t troubled any leaderboards.
i can only get about halfway up a couple of local segments in my age group (i’m49).
so, by my reckoning, an ebike makes me about the same as an average stravaist. (Whatever TF that is)
i wasn’t getting uptight btw, it can be hard to accurately convey emotions on the net eh👍👍
250w is continuous rating, ie will run forever without overheating. in reality they can output more, 36v bike with a 15amp controller can peak at 540w for example, even though continuous is rated at 250w.
Cheers seosamh77
that makes perfect sense, I’d thought the controller in a consumer version would limit to the legal max output of 250 though so it’s probably been unlocked that makes the Watts and speed up hill tally up.
Dude, I’d love to see a picture of that like.
S,fine I’m always a bit sceptical 🙂
And seosamh77s explanation makes the numbers work, I didn’t realise the peak output could be over 500watts.
No, I didn’t either.
Conversely, the assist downhill stops at 15mph, and all you’re left with is a sluggish, heavy bike spinning out on a 1×11 drivetrain with a tiny, twiddly chainring.
Bicycles for people who don’t really like riding bikes?
You've never ridden one downhill anywhere have you?
Firstly. You do realise there is no drag while freewheeling an emtb? The drag while pedalling over 15mph on the flat is quite noticable but any drag while pedalling gravity assisted far less so. Spinning out my 1x11 drivetrain doesn't ever happen on my normal mtb except for on road descents so why would you think it happens on my similarly geared emtb?
Let someone who has done around 250miles of descending in the last 8 weeks on an emtb explain a few basics to you:
Yes. They are heavier. To be precise my 170mm emtb is around 14lb heavier than my 170mm carbon enduro bike. both have an incredibly similar build, geometry, brakes and suspension. (11spd GX. LyrikRCT/Monarch vs 11speed XT LyrikRC/SDeluxe being the main differences). There's no way to get around this extra weight but there certainly are ways to make it work for you. I have altered my descending style very slightly to compensate for the extra fatigue those extra pounds contribute to. I'm usually a very lively poppy sort of rider who hops/jumps from line to line often, manuals and drifts a lot as it's incredibly fun. I'm a fast descender. But I'd rather be having fun than shaving seconds off an irrelivent onlie leaderboard. Riding a 14lb heavier bike in the same manner means your body will tire quicker (hops/manuals take a little more strength). But this doesn't mean you can't ride in a similar style. it just means you need to be cleverer about it. looking for natural lips, compressions and small kicks to raise your wheels with less effort. The plus sides of that extra 14lb is that my Emtb holds a LOT more momentum, gives a greater boost from a pump, and grips better than the other bike. The only real downside of all that extra momentum when descending is your braking points become fractionally earlier but we are talking fractions here. and it becomes second nature very quickly knowing where and how hard to brake. My DH times have actually been faster since riding an emtb. Not because of the motor. but because I ride it smoother and the fact that I'm getting 4 times as much quality mtb descending in each week compared to pre-emtb ownership where I'd ride more mileage per week but being a combination of XC, DH/Enduro and road, far less quality off road descending. I think I've been out on the roadbike and XC bike once each in the past 2 months whereas previously I'd have ridden both at least once every week.
It does take a little while to get used to the different handling an emtb has. I'd be very surprised if many riders get dialled into this completely after only one ride. The first week I had mine I took it to a local jump spot and couldn't believe how terrible it felt compared to my other bikes... a few weeks later when more familiar with it I spent an evening at a jump park getting to grips with the differences. I'm glad to say it does everything my other bikes will in the air. ie. it tables, whips, scrubs fine. it's just a bit more stable and with all that weight low and central inputs need to be slightly different (this is also the same for manualling/hopping it BTW). But the same can be said of my 26lb 4X bike in comparison to my 32lb Enduro bike or 35/6lb DH bikes.
Oh.. and BTW. brake pad wear and tyre wear are exactly on a par with my other bikes so that kinda blows this increased trail erosion scaremongering out the window too. (I don't use stupid plus tyres either)
s that really the kind of power they can produce? I presumed you’d get about 300w overall from an unfit rider which is what a decent xc rider can produce on their own for sustained periods.
If sprinted up a hill at 600w I’d expect a lot of wheelspin and scrabble. The thought of an increasing number of people regularly doing this on heavy bikes and chunky tires is pretty alarming.
I’d ban them from off road personally. Fantastic vehicle for road journeys sure but our woodlands are in a precarious state as it is without adding to the erosion. Don’t forget all that mass coming back down the hill will tear up the descents too, especially if the rider likes to skid.
Please actually ride one before spouting such twaddle. They do not "rip trails up" or output that kind of power continuously. Also most come with plus tyres which are probably less erosive than most on the trails.
I can see the point of eMTB's but it's not for me at the moment. I was a die hard roadie (been doing MTB since the 90's as well) but got my spine broken by a driver on the way to work 2.5 years ago. I've ditched road, but I just ride MTB now. I'm lucky I hardly need to use roads where I live (edge of Peaks).
I struggle, but it's helped get my fitness back after months of basically lying down. I'm not as fit as I was, but I enjoy the struggle to stay fit - just reminds me how lucky I was not to be in a wheel chair. I get 'down' because of it, and the pain can be bad, especially on the 'hike a bike' parts going up non-rideable hills.
I do, no doubt, think I'll need an eMTB at some point, but not until I really can't get up hills. I'm still one of the quicker riders up hills in my group of ride lads, but slowest down (injury mentality). If I start getting dropped by the young lads then I might consider it.
Just not for me at the moment. I still have the roadie mentality of enjoying the 'climb'.
Good to hear you're pushing through fossy. I've had too many near misses on the road on my mtb I won't countenance it.
Like you, the MTB keeps me fit enjoyably. If you talk to the 90 year olds you find up mountains then it's not making it easy on themselves that's enabled them to be there.
That's where I want to be in 45 years time, so...
I think it is all about choice and circumstance. I am time poor and tend not to cycle in the winter. Every spring it is harder and less enjoyable to get my fitness back. Also at my age (53) the steeper hills hurt and really take it out of me. So I tend to find an e-bike more fun early season and for the bigger hillier rides. Locally I will look to take my analog bike, but again sometimes in the past I would not go out if it was too windy or I felt a bit tired etc. Now I just take the ebike instead and enjoy the ride. I am also doing more tech and downhill as I can get more uphills in before my fitness limits the ride.
What I really cannot understand is people who think they should be banned etc. They do absolutely no harm to anyone else...who cares if someone else is not geting the workout/suffering to the same extent as you? As for the erosion argument...just clutching at straws to justify a prejudice.
Live and let live I say.
"not for me at the moment"
"maybe if I start getting dropped by younger riders"
These are both pretty common things I hear said about emtbs.
I'd been holding out for a few years hoping the weight of a capable 150-170mm emtb would aproach that of a modern DH bike (38-40lb ish) and battery range to increase. Which TBF I now accept is unlikely to ever happen in my lifetime (even the very lightest carbon emtbs in that category are closer to 46lb with a 500wh battery and I certainly wouldn't want less range).
What has happened is emtb geometry and suspension designs have settled into something incredibly capable all round but particulaly with regards to descending. Mine has 170mm travel, a 64deg H/A, 440mm stays and a 326mm BB height. in short it's an absolute pinner DH.
Now that I do have one. I wish they'd been around when I was in my 20s instead of *wasting whole weekends pushing a 48lb DH bike up hill for 40mins-1hr for 4minutes of descending time.
I don't *need* one through lack of fitness, injury or illness. I just wanted one. and now I do I have absolutely no regrets.
I'm in no way trying to convert anyone to emtb here. I'm simply laying down some bare facts for anyone less informed. I don't really care whether others like or dislike the idea but either way please stop talking utter nonsense about them.
*it wasn't a waste. It was a great scene, I made a lot of great friends through and learned how to ride a DH bike reletively fast from. But those days are gone
I took a Kenevo out on a test at Malvern yesterday and can attest to the fact that you will still be 'blowin out yo ass' because you'll end up racing other E'bikes uphill, which was fun. But I didn't really like the way it handled and the feeling of engine braking when you let off the gas, I guess that's something you get used to with time. If winching up steep hills and plummeting back down at breakneck speeds as many times as you can is your bag then definitely go out and buy one, for me I'm getting old but I ain't dead yet, but I guarantee there is a place for one in the not too distant future, after all it's still MTB and I'd sooner die on the bike than in me bed!!!
engine braking when you let off the gas
How does that work when there's a freehub on the rear wheel?
Heavy bike, Big draggy plus tyres and a false sense of your actual effort level?
The shimano motors orignal transition from assist to cut out at only 14mph was pretty harsh. With the latest firmware update it's far smoother, it actually assists to 15mph now, the assist modes and power delivery are way nicer. I run my trail mode one level higher than stock though as I thought it was too little assistance and too big a jump to BOOOOOOOOOOOOOST.
Pretty sure the specialized app allows you to tailor the settings even more than the Shimano app. I think the Specialized Brose motor is meant to be the least draggy of all (above 15mph cut off) but not as as smooth in delivery as the shimano. You'd need to ask someone with more time on both really.
Not engine braking then as it doesn't slow you down when you stop pedaling any more than on a none ebike.😉
Unless I'm missing something?
Only had a quick go on a Shimano and a Bosch setup, but can't see how the motor can slow the bike when there's a freewheel.
it can't. and doesn't
#Ignorethefokelore
The drag is through the BB/motor as you exceed the assist limit. it's nothing to worry about for a fit and healthy rider though. you either just put in that little extra effort or you nurse it along at exactly15mph (or slightly under) depending on your sense of entitlement/unashamed cheating ethos. 😉
it’s nothing to worry about for a fit and healthy rider though.
I'm ****ed then as I'm now over 50.😂
Some motors decouple as you exceed the assist speed limit, some don't. The Bosch motor doesn't decouple at all and at slow speed with the motor off or when decoupling in boost mode it feels like riding in treacle. The transition from assisted to unassisted is not so noticeable in the lower power modes. The Brose (Specialized) motor decouples completely so all you are doing over 15.5mph is pedaling a heavy bike. I am under the impression that the Shimano motor also decouples but I haven't ridden one so can't be sure.
Whatever motor you have, there's no more drag when freewheeling and eBike than there is from an analogue bike.
We had a couple of people call us cheats at Malvern today, I just laughed and pointed out I was having fun. I don't care what others think; I'm riding way more than I ever did with my clockwork bike and having way more fun doing it.
I love the whole "cheat" thing. Who exactly are we cheating?
No idea. Strava Queens maybe. worried we'll steal their KOMs.
I'm certainly not cheating myself; without the eBike I wouldn't be out anything like as much.