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I bet his mum would be so proud though.
not.
He sounds like he might be one of those “imaginary ebike haters” that philjunior was talking about earlier.
The last time e-bikes were discussed on here someone (who I had otherwise assumed to be pretty bright) commented that putting a motor on a bike was no different from other innovations like gears, disc brakes and suspension. If there are e-bike hatters then there are clearly some pretty deluded fanboys out there too.
I'm not really sure you've thought that through chickenman.. I assume you'd you agree something like L.E.D. lighting is an innovation enabling us to ride at night? What about Di2 gearing? GPS? Power meters etc? are those not innovative?
So how is an electronically controlled power assisting motor not innovative?
Is there even such a thing as an Ebike fanboi? I really enjoy riding mine but I don't have any scarves to wave at other Ebikes when I see them or anything... infact i'm pretty non plussed about other folks bikes. Electrically assisted or not.
Sometimes I wish a few friends would buy them. It’s not fun waiting at the top off the hill for half an hour, it’s not fitness it’s mental toughness sometimes
"[i] colp
That looks more like a hillbill E bike to me[/i]"
thread should have terminated there - excellent
[nonedebate?]as to E-Bikes am I behind the times? is the UK having a referendum on them? Will they become compulsory?
down under we had a referendum on gay marriage and after all the twaddle turned out you didn't have to unless you wanted to[/nonedebate?]
If people need to manufacture justifications then there probably is still some insecurity attached to the purchase of an ebike they feel they need to talk their way around.
I doubt that will ever change, but does it really matter what other people think of you as you waft past?
Live and let live I say, but don't kid yourselves, the whole point of an ebike is that less effort is required generally than a proper bicycle...
The OP linked article doesn't really contradict this, it's simply making the case for ebiking to work being cheaper and better exercise than driving, which of course you can't dispute, and given the example they use (a fella with 200 commuting miles a week to cover, and presumably a bit of physical effort once at work as well) an ebike seems perfectly justifiable, he's doing some additional exercise and lessening his environmental impact...
Of course that's a completely different context to the people rolling round swinley on one this weekend, I'm sure they have their own justifications too...
chickenman
The last time e-bikes were discussed on here someone (who I had otherwise assumed to be pretty bright) commented that putting a motor on a bike was no different from other innovations like gears, disc brakes and suspension...
That sounds like one of my offhand comments. It's my tongue in cheek response to most worthwhile innovations.
You must forgive me, I am not very bright, I ride a singlespeed most of the time so my brain has been affected. 🙂
For the record, I love eBikes, and I have every intention of getting one when I get too old and infirm.
eBikes are the viagra of cycling - about the only legal way to feel 18 again. 🙂
If you haven't ridden a good one, try it, and see if you can suppress the wide grin.
And no one should hate them. If it brings people out on a bike who are too fat, or too infirm, or just not inclined to exercise, surely that is a good thing.
There is no one in cycling who is sufficiently superior that they can look down upon other cyclists - except of course, single speeders or their gods, fixed riders*.
.
.
.
*(NB, invisible [TIC]...[/TIC] brackets)
Stevextc, I’d doubt anyone rides an ebike turned off expect maybe downhill. Even the there’s little point in turning it off. Turn it off and you are just riding a more difficult to ride bike. Defo no fun cycling and ebike turned off.
Yet the option exists. As do a multitude of intermediate ones ... If I ride my HT into town then its more effort than my commuter (if more comfortable)... but its a choice. (Its actually more about where I can lock it up... but ) then what if I set my e-Bike HT to deliver the same effort in eco mode as a commuter or road bike?
I sometimes take my "DJ bike" out on trails (saddle raised) simply because I get more exercise... I can ride with the kid and I get a workout .. and I'm pretty stuffed after a lap of Swinley at my kids speed. If I don't I take my FS ... I RARELY take my carbon HT which would be the "easiest".
What would be nice is doing a second lap on the DJ bike but last time we got to that point I just went to the car and took the carbon HT.
The whole "is it cheating" .. "will I get less exercise" is in my control.
My point is I could do this with a 160mm e-bike... and actually tune the minimum to be something like the DJ effort (or possibly not... it might be that completely switched off they are the same - probably same weight at least)
I could then do a second lap with the "same effort" as either my trail or FS or one of each. Or I could do 3 laps in the reverse order or just take out some of the hills that are a killer on the DJ...
Thats not a big shock though is it? The whole point is that it’s easier than riding a non assisted bike.
My own musing were simply that I’m not going to ride the Hilly 20 mike commute on anything other than an ebike, but as I’m doing it for utility/cost/enjoyment reasons anyway, I wonder what the “bonus” fitness benefits might be.
The whole point depends on who you are and what you want. It's like saying the whole point of clipped in is making faster climbs or spinning faster on the flat... but try using that argument to a DH racer.
For your perspective I think it's far more accurate to say "It can be easier than riding a non-assited bike when you want". It can certainly be a lot HARDER in terms of effort required than riding a sub UCI 6.8kg bike. (Though a lot easier in terms of comfort perhaps)
If you get a customisable power level motor then it's up to you... you can dial the minimum right back until its not doing much except offset the extra weight.. and just take out a single hill or more than one.
Maybe a better approach to riding a bike should be:
If it isn't fun
It shouldn't be done
Bollocks to it being about exercise or about speed. strava, whatever.
It makes you feel good to be on a bike? - then it's good.
Yet the option exists.
It does, I still doubt it'll be used be very much except sadists! Obviously there's a few of them kicking about, but there numbers are limited.
Btw, if you read any of my comments, you'll realise I'm well converted, I'm patiently awaiting my conversion kit coming from china. So you are preaching to the converted!
They're all about the fun factor! And as I said, there's limited value in comparing them to real cycling, they are their own thing. You can view them as a moving exercise bike that you can tune to your own requirements really(I'd suggest you need to hammer them more than people think to get useful exercise out of them, pottling along won't cut it(variable user to user obv)). Or you can view them as riotous fun that will take you up anything!
My view point, tends towards the latter. 🙂
I love riding my E-mtb so much that my normal mtb was just collecting dust so Ive sold it
On my normal mtb i hated climbing hills, its just no fun! with the E-mtb the whole ride is smiles better!
Could give a **** about fitness or people calling me a cheat, im 41 relatively fit and healthy and don't need an e-bike but wanted one as mtb'ing to me is just about having fun!
If i want to ride for fitness then i still have my road bike which i would never replace with an e-bike until i really needed to due to any health issues, still not a fan of hills on the road bike but i don't mind them as its a smooth ride and treat them as a challenge
For me personally its...
E-mtb for pure fun the whole ride
Road bike for fitness and some fun
It does, I still doubt it’ll be used be very much except sadists! Obviously there’s a few of them kicking about, but there numbers are limited.
Btw, if you read any of my comments, you’ll realise I’m well converted, I’m patiently awaiting my conversion kit coming from china. So you are preaching to the converted!
They’re all about the fun factor! And as I said, there’s limited value in comparing them to real cycling, they are their own thing. You can view them as a moving exercise bike that you can tune to your own requirements really(I’d suggest you need to hammer them more than people think to get useful exercise out of them, pottling along won’t cut it(variable user to user obv)). Or you can view them as riotous fun that will take you up anything!
My view point, tends towards the latter.
That's your view and one I share a lot of... when I do DH weekends it's done on the uplift... but I do need to keep some fitness and at 50 it's easy to lose. Perhaps in that context I'd view replacing uplift with e-bike as more fitness than fun?
I don't however class myself in the sadist sufferfest group... I take the DJ bike out to get some exercise when cycling with the kid I'd get less on my FS and less on my XC HT. In a few years I'll need an e-bike to even keep up... however it's also important that I'm having fun whilst doing this. I might be able to push a 2nd lap on the DJ... however it won't be FUN... (at least not the same way)
You can view them as a moving exercise bike that you can tune to your own requirements really(I’d suggest you need to hammer them more than people think to get useful exercise out of them, pottling along won’t cut it(variable user to user obv)).
I honestly think you're under-rating the benefit of an hour every day on an exercise bike on even minimum resistance vs not. If your pretty fit then perhaps the gap between that and an hour on a proper workout might be big but compared to sitting on a train it's going to be a huge benefit even just on minimum. Its like saying walking briskly an hour a day has no benefit over not....
If you want more then you can tune the minimum down... or even switch it off for flat sections... and still use it on the hills that are preventing you cycling in the first place.
Comparing it to the train then the benefits also might depend what you do with the possible extra time. Obviously if you get home and then go for an hours ride or jump on Zwift etc. that's different to going on STW and typing.
Anyway, the point is the exercise and fun are not mutually exclusive at least to me. Perhaps due to my advancing years my reasons for exercise are as more about health and being fit enough to have fun than race times.
40 min or an hour a day me doing any low impact exercise is a huge boost compared to spending 8-10hrs at a weekend doing high impact and to a large extent governs how much impact those hours can be.
the same thing means something different to different people, init, tis all good. 🙂
I'm not saying there's no benefit to pottling about on the flat on them, there is. I've tried it, had one for a week, done 90 miles on it, and I felt stronger on my normal bike as a result. I'm pretty unfit just now though. but that benefit is limited imo, and will level out eventually. You can use them as a fitness tool, but you better be prepared to hit hills as fast as you can on low assistance, imo(Off is pointless, don't really see the point in why you would use one if you are turning it off, kinda missing the point!).
To be fair, I don’t see many people turning off the assist on a 70b (32kg) longtail cargo bike with 20-30lb of stuff and a kids seat on the back 👍 not when it’s there and available
I’m happy now that I’ll be getting a decent amount of “bonus excercise” over sitting on the train/driving.
I get plenty already, but this will be a bit extra. And it will be way more fun, and cheaper in the long run. Happy days
tune the minimum to be something like the DJ effort (or possibly not… it might be that completely switched off they are the same – probably same weight at least)
You have a DJ bike that weighs the same as your Ebike? WTF? My DJ bike is exactly 20lb lighter than my 46lb Emtb. (lighter than most 170mm travel emtbs)
Silliest argument ever.
Why not ride whatever you fancy? An ebike is just another bike, if it offends you that somebody else is riding one then pull yourself together.
Taking an undue interest in somebody else's business is an unhealthy hobby.
Silliest argument ever.
Not really seen anyone arguing. But if you insist.
Why go out if your way to get involved in a discussion you aren’t bothered about if ....
..Taking an undue interest in somebody else’s business is an unhealthy hobby.
😳👍
The fuss interests me, not the activity
I’d agree with your description then, unhealthy hobby.
I am always amused by these threads. It's progression and life without progression is zzzzzz. But most of all it's all about fun. I don't MTB anymore as my left knee causes me pain if I do. I am planning on getting an e-MTB next year when I have the funds, as it will allow me to get out riding again. I couldn't care less if someone thinks I am a "cheat", that's their issue not mine. Ride whatever the hell you want, as long as it brings a smile to your face who cares?
Neal, maybe you have misinterpreted my use of 'you', it wasn't aimed at you, the OP, just a metaphysical 'anyone but me'.
My interest was piqued by the way in which, despite several years on the market, ebikes still seem to be divisive, even amongst such a pro-biking audience as stw. I've ridden a couple, both as mtb and commuter / haulage and there's nothing to dislike, aside maybe from the price.
Come one guys! Using a single speed up a hill requires the same expenditure of Joules as pedalling up in a really low gear; it requires much more power though. My argument is against energy being supplied by an artificial source to my pedalling; fundamentally different from mechanical advantage gained by using gears (nothing to do with illuminating the trail or electronic shifting ffs!).
Whilst e-bikes are only providing a little assistance currently, it'll only be a few years before they become so efficient that pedalling will be largely superfluous. At that point, for me, that's motor biking and completely missing the point of a bicycle.
I think they are phenomenal .I've only ridden 2 ,Geex Vitus and a bling up Haibike. With the new Scottish execute initiative to give really good loans for people buying Ebikes for commuting they are only going to get more popular. The only annoying thing about this is with bike theft at an all time high in Edinburgh its all very well giving cheap loans but if there is knowhere safe to lock them up what is the point. ? I know this is going off tangent but without safe storage leaving a 3 k bike outside dosent sound very appealing.
The other thing I noticed when I was in Spain recently was that most bike shops are almost 1 Ebike to 1 normal bike over there and its great to see old guys on big travels bikes zipping about the costas. Ill definately succumb to one in the next few years but hopefully by then the batteries will have got smalled and there will be more charging options in place.
@chickenman.
I'm not sure who you're even arguing with. Nevermind what about.
FYI ebikes come under different classes. Basically:
Class 1 & 2 are limited to 15/20mph and 750W assistance (20 under EU law).
Class 2 is more or less the same as class 1 but for twist assist throtle style controlled ebikes.
Class 3 are limited to 28mph
Class 4 is an electric motorbike/moped and requires licensing/registration
You have nothing to fear. Other than maybe your propensity for typing "arguements" when you have very little knowledge of your subject matter. 😉
Ebike battery technolgy isn't going to change massively any time soon. Not affordably anyway. And there's only so much that can be done t make a motor more efficient/lighter but still durable enough for mtb use.
I was chatting to a couple of blokes on Yeti SB5.5s or something. How light??? Anyway, while they weren't acutally negative, they didn't really see the point of eBikes for them (young, fit, capable riders). Then they both had a go on mine. Big grin central. When I left them they were discussing hiring a couple of bikes for a weekend and hitting Afan. Job done
I have an ebike. It is awesome and I love riding it. And that's all I have to say about that.
[i]I’m not sure who you’re even arguing with. Nevermind what about.[/i]
This has just turned into the same old eBike thread as done multiple times before.
Just in case anyone was wondering, like.
What is a “normal bike”
It's a bike where all your power comes from you. Nothing wrong with having a better bike, and I have been thinking that there is a huge advantage in some of my bikes these days over bikes I've ridden in the past just through some careful component selection and setup rather than being a different type of bike.
It's about efficiency not adding power, that's one of the things I really like about the leisure/sport side of cycling when contrasted with motorsport.
Of course I'd like a cargo ebike. But that's different.
I was just thinking about buying one because they look like a bit of fun when I'm a bit tired from riding any of my other bikes.
I didn't realise they had the added benefit of pissing off people that want me to conform to what they think is right or wrong.
Come on guys it's a pushbike with a tiny bit of assist not an Alta Redshift.
What would be interesting is if they were developed to store mainly energy created by the rider, eg from riding downhill or braking.
The battery could be pretty light because it would not need a huge range - or as long term storage wouldn't be necessary, are super capacitors at the stage where they could be used for this job ?
The motor could also be lighter because it would never run continuously for long.
I could see it approaching the weight of a normal bike with a hubgear.
Of course maybe such a thing has already been trialled in the TdF... 🙂
Pretty much the second question everyone asks me is "does it recharge as you pedal or go downhill?"
I'd love to see a dynamo/charger with no resistance and lighter than the current system but to re-charge the 80wh of battery it takes to ride up to the top of my local DH track in the 4 minutes it takes to reach the bottom I feel we'd need the help of this guy.
Oh if it was regen braking filling the battery up I'd actually be really interested in one<span style="text-decoration: underline;">.</span> That's just an efficiency increase isn't it? UCI might disagree...
Look. I like motorbikes too. Damned if I'm going to whine at anyone who shares that.
But call them what they are...
But call them what they are…
Which takes me back my original Q. It's an odd one, as many seem confused about the word 'assist' when it comes to vehicles while simultaneously unambiguous about terms such as 'assisted-living' when it comes to living arrangements for the average E-bike user (it's a joke, a satirical joke)
Shall we clear it up with a multiple-choice poll?
By what name do we classify bicycles that have powered assistance to a maximum speed of 25 km/h (15.5 mph) using a motor of no more than 250 Watts? (Choose one):
A. Pedelec/EAPC
B. E-bike
C. Moped
D. Motorbike
E. Car
F. HGV
Bonus question: Are there comparable health benefits to be had from
1. A motorcycle
vs
2. A pedelec
Y/N
Answers please on postcards addressed to both the DVLA and The Daily *xpress. Let's nail the nomenclature for this new and confusing motorised menace once and for all! For the health of the Nation and eager insurers.
I very much see the benefits of them for commuting and also I am a big supporter for those whom can access the outdoor in a way they couldn’t otherwise because of illness, injury or age. To be honest for the latter group I don’t have a huge issue with a throttle controlled bike...
Personally, I would like to assistance off-road really taper off lower than 14.5mph. This is driven by having recently seen a few crap and dangerous behaviours from inexperienced people riding e-bikes, where on more than one occasion they have just barged through other people riding non-assisted bikes riding uphill or on the flat just after an uphill. For this education may help, but in reality who needs to cycle at 14.5mph up a steep off-road hill? I’m all for levelling a playing field for those less fit - but do we really need it to swing so far the other way...? I think not.
Other than that a torque-limiter might help as well, as I have seen another couple of occasions where ‘enthusiastic’ riders on e-bikes have torn the edge of a step up on our regular trails.</span>
Exercise or workout? Who gives a F.
Its about getting where you want to go less sweaty & tired & getting up the hill quicker to do more descents.
Despite a fairly recent diagnosis of heart disease, I don’t get this. Even though it took me twice as long to get around the MBR loop this week than it did 4 years ago, I still like to ‘earn’ the descents. For me, the climbs are still part of the challenge...
missing the point of a bicycle.
I hadn’t realised they had one clearly defined “point”
Can you let me know what it is, because I’ve think I may have been riding most of them wrong for the last 42 years if there is only one reason to ride them. 🙄
Personally, I would like to assistance off-road really taper off lower than 14.5mph. This is driven by having recently seen a few crap and dangerous behaviours from inexperienced people riding e-bikes, where on more than one occasion they have just barged through other people riding non-assisted bikes riding uphill or on the flat just after an uphill. For this education may help, but in reality who needs to cycle at 14.5mph up a steep off-road hill? I’m all for levelling a playing field for those less fit – but do we really need it to swing so far the other way…? I think not.
Ahh but that’s just selfish nobs on bikes which just happen to have motors, but I think you have a point with the off road hill climbing and it could be mapped to a more realistic model.
If they didn't have motors they wouldn't be there on them...
@malvern rider - You seem to be focussing on the 'assist' word rather than the 'motor' word.
Like I said, I have no problem with them, but they're bikes with motors, therefore motorbikes.
This whole argument comes from people wanting to retain the same feeling of healthy virtuousness they get from leg-powered mountain biking when on an ebike. But the fact is, in 99.9÷ of cases they have lesser health benefits than cycles (no matter what fictitious scenarios people concoct to say otherwise - 'look, if we ride them like this we get just as knackered', but never actually do that, or 'if it's a choice between not biking and e-biking they're way better' (well, of course ffs!)).
They're loads of fun precicely *because* you don't have to work as hard. Your heart doesn't max the hell out on the steep climbs whilst sweat pours into your eyes, and anyone who says that it does isn't being entirely honest.
But it doesn't matter. If you enjoy them, enjoy them. But don't try to claim that it's not cheating (for anyone but the disabled it is), that they're as healthy (by definition the motor makes it easier), and that they're not motorbikes, when they are, just not in the traditional sense.
but in reality who needs to cycle at 14.5mph up a steep off-road hill?
But can you actually ride up a steep off road hill at 14.5mph on one? I doubt it. Remember they are only pedal assist. In turbo mode the best systems will put out 300% of the rider's power. The best systems hit 550W maximum power output at their optimum cadence- it falls away sharply either side. So a rider putting in 185W at just the right cadence for the motor with a bike in turbo mode will be hitting about 730Watts max with the best systems and circa 600W on most. That is not enough to get you moving at 14.5mph up a steep hill. Also, remember that this is pedal assist - so systems reduce the motor contribution close to the top speed and by 14.5mph the drive is 100% human input. Anyone riding a heavy Ebike at 14.5mph up a steep hill needs to get in touch with British Cycling to get on their Olympic track programme.
Not saying the are not stupid people riding them inconsiderately. Up a properly steep hill you might be only going 3mph under your own steam so an Ebike travelling at 6mph will feel like it is blowing past you like you are standing still (equivalent of a car passing you at 140mph when you are doing the speed limit on the motorway). In a way it's a bit like walkers and riders sharing a bridleway - very much up to the faster moving person to be considerate around the slower moving and not to feel entitled that everyone should stepping aside for them, however as the rider in that situation you would hope the walker would step aside when they can.
Ride whatever the hell you want, as long as it brings a smile to your face who cares?
Pretty much sums it up for me
Good point Convert.
you might be only going 3mph under your own steam so an Ebike travelling at 6mph will feel like it is blowing past you like you are standing still (equivalent of a car passing you at 140mph when you are doing the speed limit on the motorway).
Awesome, but sadly it'd feel like being overtaken at 73mph.
#quickmaths
6-700 watts is an enormous amount of power. Holding 185w as a rider is really easy. Barely raising my heart rate for me. 6-700 watts is a flat out sprint/max effort for 30 seconds. A bike tire will tear the hell out of a climb if that kind of power is being applied regularly.