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I’ve got a full fat cannondale monster truck monterra. It’s lovely, but 27+ kg all up. It’s heavy.
I’ve now got a new exciting condition that means I do need more than a tiny bit of assistance to get up hills and I don’t fancy hauling around a heavy bastid of an eBike, when I’m back out next year.
I’m completely out of touch with eBike development, or current bikes, does such a bike exist ? One That doesn’t weigh 22kg plus for a decent power output AND a decent battery and not an extreme level of travel.
I’ve previously had a go on a Specialized SL some time ago, the version 1 and it felt way down on power compared to the FF Dale I have, but it did ride better as it’s carrying a lot less weight.
really I’m only this for trail riding, not gnarly stuff.
I’ve heard of the dji eBike, but didn’t think that was one the SL super light breed.
Try the Levo SL2. I ride with a lot of people on full fat Levo’s and it doesn’t seem to put me at much disadvantage in the real world.
the basic issue is batteries are heavy as are motors. Both are gradually getting lighter but a full power motor and a large battery are going to be around 10kg
Amflow/Forbidden/Unno/Commencal with Avinox motor
Whyte e lyte stag works with Bosch gen5 motor
Latest S Works Levo
Giant Trance E comes with a full power motor and a 400w battery for the same weight as a light ebike. Comes with a 200w range extender but I can get 40km out of the main battery
The new Trek Fuel + EX ticks all the boxes. Decent enough power unless you are a 'Moar Laps! Moar Powerrrrrr!!' kind of rider. Reasonable battery size, quiet motor. Sensible design.
sort of my question as well.
dji 600 pro I think might be nearest full power, 19.2kg apparently.
suggest a test ride of any ‘sl’ motor before purchase (levo sl, trek exe , Bosch sx, etc etc) as they are (Ime) a different experience and for me (tried levo sl, have an exe hpr50) ultimately I personally want a bit more power (not ridden sx but it doesn’t get good low cadence marks ) , Orbea rise might be ok (but not for me due to shimano motor experiences)
awaiting more reviews of maxon air s motor, and Thomus literider emax, allegedly 15kg full power but Swiss company and no uk prescience, ho hum
Moterra SL can get under 20kg (for the posh one - not much more for the others) and has "full" power
Not sure how much my Orbea Rise weighs but it's a lot lighter than the full power Kona Remote Ctrl supertanker it replaced and it's no slouch climbing neither
Moterra SL can get under 20kg (for the posh one - not much more for the others) and has "full" power
What size battery?
The new Trek Fuel+ is looking interesting. The motor has been upped to 60nm with 580wh battery.
I was just starting to accept needing a full fat bike but as a lighter rider this might actually work for me.
Thats pretty good then. I think these bikes advertised as light but only have small batteries are a bit of a con. IMO 600wh is about the minimum for decent range.
My Levo SL2 has a 320w battery. I can rinse that in a 90mins, 25km, 600m vert full power blast, or I’ve eeked it out to 50km. I’m never going to ride more than that, I’ve got shit to do…
Im sure you could rinse it quicker than that. I did a 375 battery in 8 miles 🙂
Max power on the SL2 motor is about 350W. At a guess that means a draw of ~450W at the battery.
320 WH battery will be done at full power in 42 mins.
so yeah. If I went full power up a hill non stop for 42 minutes I could empty it quicker.
in the real world. 90 mins of trails flat out empties the battery…
I went from full fat Moterra to Moterra SL 1. And it's, yep, lighter, and it's yep, powerful enough. The Bosch in the Moterra was unnecessarily powerful for me, the SL1 is awesome. Took it to a DH park with an uplift and it was brill.
Did the Staveley/kentmere 3 passes last week on my levo sl. 42km and 1500m, 35% battery left back at the car park. Did it mostly on eco, popped it into trail when needed. Did the climb from kentmere up to HP plantation entirely on trail. A lot of walk mode on the ascent to nan bield. But where needed, humping on to shoulders was possible, hard work though!
I’ve got a full fat cannondale monster truck monterra. It’s lovely, but 27+ kg all up. It’s heavy.
One That doesn’t weigh 22kg plus for a decent power output AND a decent battery and not an extreme level of travel.
My Kenevo comes in at around 28kg with 180mm Fox 38's, range extender, big tyres etc. It doesn't really bother me when I'm riding it.
My Gen 3 S-Works Levo is 23kg and you notice a huge difference though - especially over gates etc. And I've had 43 miles/3500ft out of it not being totally conservative with power on a 700wh battery
So maybe you don't need to go sub 20kg - just get something a fair bit lighter than what you have and it will feel worlds different
SC Heckler SL has Fazua 60Nm motor, max 450w output and a 430Wh battery. Genuine real world sub 20kg with a sensible build (mine's a chunky build in XXL at 20.6kg inc mudguard, pedals etc). 160/150 f/r so perhaps a bit much travel for simple trail use, although I use mine as an all rounder.
The Static Nivo looks like it will be an interesting bike
I've got an XXL Heckler SL as well. I bought it as an ebike I could lift over fences or hike a bike in a push with the promise of a range extender due to be released for big days out. It is a good bike, and I love it, but I have to turn the assistance down quite a bit to get over 35 miles and 1000m of climbing. Now that Fazua have announced that they aren't going to release a range extender anymore, I'm a bit disappointed. Still a great bike, but big days are harder than they could be. I'd be thinking about a base level Amflow or other Avinox bike given that news if I was buying new now. Worthwhile test riding a Fazua powered bike, a TP60 powered bike, and an Avinox powered bike in my weak opinion.
I went from full fat Moterra to Moterra SL 1. And it's, yep, lighter, and it's yep, powerful enough. The Bosch in the Moterra was unnecessarily powerful for me, the SL1 is awesome. Took it to a DH park with an uplift and it was brill.
I’d agree with this, my Monterra 1 FF on full power is nuts, great fun but everything uphill is wonderfully effortless. It is a lot of fun, apart from when I was riding with others not on FF e-bikes.
My Kenevo comes in at around 28kg with 180mm Fox 38's, range extender, big tyres etc. It doesn't really bother me when I'm riding it.
My Gen 3 S-Works Levo is 23kg and you notice a huge difference though - especially over gates etc. And I've had 43 miles/3500ft out of it not being totally conservative with power on a 700wh battery
So maybe you don't need to go sub 20kg - just get something a fair bit lighter than what you have and it will feel worlds different
the weight of the Dale never bothered me, every now and again it would be extra effort to make it turn quickly downwards. It’s going to be slightly harder for me now with heavier bikes for the next couple of years, which is a total pita.
I could also get quite decent range out of the Monterra if I avoided using the turbo mode.
Thats pretty good then. I think these bikes advertised as light but only have small batteries are a bit of a con. IMO 600wh is about the minimum for decent range.
Not at all. My Orbea Rise has a 360kw battery and I can get 60km and 1200m of ascent from it. It weighs less than 20kg so I can still lift it over gates. Hardly a con!
With the range extender I'm up to over 100km, plenty for big mountain days which is mostly what the bike gets used for.
Been a couple of replies around this new motor and battery system from Switzerland.
https://www.maxonbikedrive.com/en/air-s
Sounds amazing and pretty much what I’m after. I’m not seeing why the builds using this system are so light compared to others. And unless my google fu is off, none of the major manufacturers have embraced it yet.
edit: it has been years since I last looked at e-bikes, holy cow just how many different bike manufactures an e-bike range, and how many different motor systems etc are there !
The new Trek Fuel + EX ticks all the boxes. Decent enough power unless you are a 'Moar Laps! Moar Powerrrrrr!!' kind of rider. Reasonable battery size, quiet motor. Sensible design.
super interested in the fuel +, have the reliability issues of the TQ's motor been sorted?
also not interested in any Shimano powered e-bikes, unless the motors can now be repaired.
I've worked with TQ equipped bikes a lot and I've never seen a motor die. I've seen a few get warrantied for some weird quirks, like a fluttering sensation when pedaling really lightly, and goes away when pedaling normally. Any issue has been warrantied with no problem.
No system is 100% issue free. If people saw the amount of error codes a Bosch system throws up when you plug it into their software, you'd probably never risk riding your bike again! Wouldn't stop me buying one though. My Levo SL keeps throwing codes re. calibration issues but still works fine, albiet the motor sounds like a broken washing machine. Too noisy but keeps working, so not getting it replaced, as I've seen new ones fail 10 meters from the shop front door due to sprag clutch failure.
Specialized / Brose motors have had loads of belt issues.
Fazua have loads of problems.
Yes, Shimano.....
I couldn't own a DJI equipped bike due to the almost cult like following they have. No-one needs that amount of power and the company don't seem bothered that the power war will potentially result in more areas getting closes to EMTBs. Bosch didn't need to go to 100Nm either. I've ridden a 65lb 85Nm Bosch equipped bike up reasonable gradients putting in hardly any effort and hitting the speed limit so no idea why people need more....
I'd be thinking about a base level Amflow or other Avinox bike given that news if I was buying new now.
Absolutely - I'd be the same if I was looking to buy now. Not that my finances would've stretched to even a base Amflow at the time I bought the Heckler.
The news about the range extender is a kick in the balls. To be fair I've not done many rides where I'd have used it but equally I do preserve my battery on longer rides, e.g. using the mid setting rather than full power more often. Just back from a local 37km/1300m ride (Dumyat and local woods as far over as Park of Keir) with 14% battery left. But a Golfie ride will now be restricted rather than rinsing a range extender AND a built-in battery.
Shame as the bike itself rides very well and I like the feel of the motor compared to others I've tried (albeit briefly). Couple of Amflows among the group I ride with and they leave me for dead...
I've worked with TQ equipped bikes a lot and I've never seen a motor die. I've seen a few get warrantied for some weird quirks, like a fluttering sensation when pedaling really lightly, and goes away when pedaling normally. Any issue has been warrantied with no problem.
No system is 100% issue free.
Specialized / Brose motors have had loads of belt issues.
Fazua have loads of problems.
Yes, Shimano.....
I couldn't own a DJI equipped bike due to the almost cult like following they have. No-one needs that amount of power and the company don't seem bothered that the power war will potentially result in more areas getting closes to EMTBs. Bosch didn't need to go to 100Nm either. I've ridden a 65lb 85Nm Bosch equipped bike up reasonable gradients putting in hardly any effort and hitting the speed limit so no idea why people need more....
that's good to hear about the TQ motor system.
Specialized have the best connectivity esp to garmin & probably warranty, but expensive and the SL is probably the lowest power option.
The DJI amflow is interesting, £6k for the 800w battery carbon one.
I’ll try and get a demo ride next year, no idea what support is like
Don't get me wrong, my Heckler is still amazing for local rides. Anything up to 30 miles, 1200m of climbing is fine. Turning the assistance down (I have a "tour" mode that really reduces the assist) can add about 10 miles, but that is almost the reverse of what I really want (don't really want just riding to be harder when I want to go further). Just disappointed that the range extender isn't happening. I'm booked in for the bigger internal battery though. Don't want to try an Avinox bike as it would likely just get me het up and wanting to buy a bike that I don't need.
The 50Nm Mahle motor in the LSL2 and KSL2 is a massive boost over the old motor and the KSL rides soooo well. Probably a bit more than you need though. I used a friend's LSL2 in Czech last year and it handled all my hamfooted attempts to overwhelm it on even the orange tech line at Bikepark Klinovets.
I'm extremely interested in the Static NivoE / Maxon air s motor. To the point Ive put one of my current bikes up for sale in prep of the release details...
A 90nm 600w sub 18kg bike from a UK company and potentially a frame only option sounds too good to be true really. Some interest 'real world' reviews on you tube for the maxon motor would suggest a 600wh battery is the bare minimum needed though.
I’ve previously had a go on a Specialized SL some time ago, the version 1 and it felt way down on power
I havent read the rest but... Gen 2 Levo SL literally solves this. all my riding buddies are on 'FF' ebikes and I've very, very rarely felt short changed. and my bike is 19kg and rides sooo much better for it.
A mate has a gen 2 levo, he gets dropped on big mountain tech climbing, but has no issues with power or range anywhere else.
Whyte Elyte EVO, gen 5 bosch, so the new update but a lot lighter.
IF we remove the range extender its just under 20kg
Full power and sub-22kg = Cannondale Moterra SL or Amflow PL Carbon. IMO they're the only two genuine candidates.
My large transition regulator cx weights about 21kg, 600wh battery Bosch motor.
Whatever you go for, they all weigh pretty much the same for equivalent power / range / components
Anything else at the lighter end of the spectrum will compromise something on that scale. Anything at the heavy end will be a brick but be fast , last ages, and be burly
The Amflow is probably the best compromise of all with shed loads of power big battery and ok components although you would probably add 1kg at least to make it robust, but that doesn’t matter with all that power
Im not convinced it’s that great battery wise though. Never ridden one but it does look like it eats battery.
On paper the amflow does seem to be the answer. Or seemingly any dji powered eBike. Don’t think the dji system has a range extender and fixed battery which I appreciate saves weight. Must find out what general range is on the amflow.
the maxon air s powered bikes sound incredibly light for full power, decent battery. Still not seeing how they’re cracking sub 16-17 kg. That trail linked above looks good, shame the site is only in German.
things have really moved on since I bought my Monterra.
Im not convinced it’s that great battery wise though. Never ridden one but it does look like it eats battery.
My mate’s seems to. He has the big battery version and his consumption %age wise isn’t much better than the rest of us on Levo SLs.
I think the power outputs are misleading, it’s the torque or more importantly where it’s delivered that’s the biggest difference between full power and SL.
I had a CX4 bike for three years and it was fun on the ups but at 26kg I found it a handful. Sold it and had two bike-less years. Bought a gen 2 Levo SL this spring and was initially underwhelmed. It didn’t have the low down grunt of the full fat, but once I started using lower gears and more rpm, the bike really came alive. I only lose out to the amflow when it gets really steep or slow and techy. Even with his Amflow being the posh one with some carbon upgrades, my bike is still noticeably lighter.
although you would probably add 1kg at least to make it robust, but that doesn’t matter with all that power
I always find this an interesting perspective, imo the vast majority of riders 95% don't need to add weight and enduro or DH parts to bikes. We only do it due to marketing and because the sport tells us too.
the maxon air s powered bikes sound incredibly light for full power, decent battery. Still not seeing how they’re cracking sub 16-17 kg.
Because the total motor/battery weight combined of the maxon is similar in weight to a standard mid drive motor on its own. The Thomus Lightrider with an xc build can be built easily into a sub 15kg bike. But it is designed as an xc/trail bike rather than enduro.
The design of the motor and battery also means you have a slimmer profile frame which requires less reinforcement around the battery and motor.
Personally I really like the design of the motor, with it's dual can design, Maxon essentially have separated the BB from the motor. This 'should' make the system more robust and service able? You also don't get the instant motor drag over 15.5mph which is a huge plus on a full power system.
might be the same as static, but trail looks good to me
The Transalpes e1 has the old maxon motor in it which was even lighter but only 40nm and 280w with a 250wh battery
@clubby 100% with you on that.
Full fat ebikes are turbodiesels. Remember when Mk4 Gold Tdis were all the rage, "pulls like a train mate" very easily accessibly torque, and people who had no idea what an actual fast car is would claim they are the 2nd coming of christ.
Levo SL is a Honda Type R. The people above would try one and laugh at the lack of pace - when they put their foot down at 30mph in 5th gear and lo and behold, nothing happens at 1500rpm. But it revs to 9000!
I know which I prefer.
Ref the AMFLOW - they undoubtedly have done the best job of nailing the balance between motor output, bike weight and battery size.
The issue, of couse, is that as a bike, its faily underwhelming. Theres far more to a bike than the figures.
My Orbea Wild is around 23.5kg for full fat long travel greatness. Is that still too heavy?
I still regularly ride normal bikes though for fitness so my eeb is very much about big rides with lots of power as that where the fun is.