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Full fat ebikes are turbodiesels. Remember when Mk4 Gold Tdis were all the rage, "pulls like a train mate" very easily accessibly torque, and people who had no idea what an actual fast car is would claim they are the 2nd coming of christ.Levo SL is a Honda Type R. The people above would try one and laugh at the lack of pace - when they put their foot down at 30mph in 5th gear and lo and behold, nothing happens at 1500rpm. But it revs to 9000!
You say that but up until the next gen of mid power bikes, an SL is super weedy compared to even an ‘old’ 85nm/600w Bosch, compared to a Gen5 Bosch at 100nm it’s nowhere.
As weights have come down (for more gravity based bikes) the lines are definitely blurring between FF and SL’s. I can’t really see the point in an SL at 20+ KG when a FF is only 2KG more now in quite a few cases.
A more trail based build at ~18kg kind of makes sense, so something like the new Fuel+ would be decent choice if you can get it there, and it’s got a decent battery now.
Ive not ridden an Amflow other than round a car park, as I’ve got no interest in a mediocre trail bike with a monster motor attached to it (and everyone who rides one is a bit ‘culty’), but I have ridden a DJI powered Unno quite a bit now - the form & integration are great, but running it in the factory settings EATS battery (significantly less than an 800w Bosch battery) which is only to be expected (more power out = more power in, and they are reportedly not as efficient as the Gen5 Bosch) which does make sense if you pedal one turned off. it’s a whole lot noisier descending too. There isn’t much in it with the Bosch power update now either.
DJI is more appealing now it’s in some better bikes, but I’m still not sure I would actually put my hand in my pocket for one yet.
On the plus side for me, I'd much rather stick to carrying my 16Kg ebike upstairs and downstairs at home, I'm not convinced I'd manage anything close to 25Kg these days. And last month it got me around a 50-mile 3250 feet route using 81% of the weedy 248Wh battery over 3hrs10mins, despite using max turbo up most of the 265-340 feet hills, right on the edge of what I can manage these days on a good day.
So, Orbea Rise 25 owner here, 630 battery. It's effectively a full power bike (torque) with the power turned down a bit. You'll still get up something as steep as anyone else, but maybe not quite as quickly. But the other side of that is a great combination of range and weight. I'm 85kg and can ride it in trail all ride, with a very little boost and I reckon range is 1800-2000m vertical. It's a capable trail bike. If you don't need that sort of range you can drop another Kg with the smaller battery (and have the option of a range extender)
Ive not ridden an Amflow other than round a car park, as I’ve got no interest in a mediocre trail bike with a monster motor attached to it
running it in the factory settings EATS battery which is only to be expected (more power out = more power in,
and they are reportedly not as efficient as the Gen5 Bosch) which does make sense if you pedal one turned off. it’s a whole lot noisier descending too.
Is it a "mediocre" trail bike? The geometry is pretty much identical to every other modern trail bike except maybe a slightly high BB (which you can compensate for by mulleting it and keeping the adjuster in the 29er mode)
They've not done any real magic, the motor is less than 100g lighter than the Shimano. Bigger batteries weigh more - the 630 in the Rise is 2.8kg. the 800 option in the Amflow is 3.8kg. Running in stock settings and Auto and the Amflow range is as poor as you'd expect. My mate was barely getting 1200m vert out of his and is now tuning it down for more range
I'm dubious about claims of different efficiencies between motors - I'm sure there is some but suspect it's pretty marginal. It's not going to let you save a kg with a smaller battery and keep the same range for example.
Noise wise the Shimano does rattle a bit, the Amflow as far as I can tell is very quiet (not sure what the noisy decending your'e reporting is from). However, I think that's the price you pay for a clutch - the shimano has as good as no drag - you can absolutely ride it without the motor switched on. The Amflow has a *lot*.
Because the total motor/battery weight combined of the maxon is similar in weight to a standard mid drive motor on its own. The Thomus Lightrider with an xc build can be built easily into a sub 15kg bike. But it is designed as an xc/trail bike rather than enduro.
The design of the motor and battery also means you have a slimmer profile frame which requires less reinforcement around the battery and motor.
Personally I really like the design of the motor, with it's dual can design, Maxon essentially have separated the BB from the motor. This 'should' make the system more robust and service able? You also don't get the instant motor drag over 15.5mph which is a huge plus on a full power system.
That sounds ideal. I’m after an xc focused eBike, I’m definitely not after a full on enduro eBike.
So I currently have a sub 23kg wild, it's getting a little old and that got me lookin at new bikes for next year, just out of interest.
I love the wild but the thing that I find mainly lets it down is that it very much feels like an ebike, definitely not an assited mtb. It's big, heavy and past 15.5mph a complete lump.
It's great on manufactured trails of bike parks, but just isn't as nice to ride on biways as my reg MTB. The lightweight ebikes I've tried have the opposite affect, great on xc trails and biways, better efficiency and little or no drag over the 15.5mph, but not as fun on tech power climbs and shuttle duties.
So a full power light weight ebike with no drag over 15.5mph and good efficiency is exactly what I'm after - not an enduro, heavy weapon of a bike, just a good trail bike that can handle it's self on the dh's but still has the assistance and torque of a full power ebike.
So a full power light weight ebike with no drag over 15.5mph
I wonder how much drag there really is over 15.5mph and how much of it is just trying to pedal a bike at >15.5mph without assistance. My Rise feels much more draggy above the cut off if I'm riding it in boost than in trail due to the way the power is delivered.
I can just ride the rise with the motor off without any trouble if I do it at the start of the day, but try that after a couple of hours of power assist and it feels like riding through treacle.
Note - the Amflow appears to be by far the easiest/simplist bike to hack the speed limiter on. That little disc with holes in at the back is what does it. You can buy a disc with a diffent number of holes that fools the bike into thinking it's' going slower than it is (no complex mechanism, nothing electronic, completely physical, completely undetectable)
Fao anybody interested in maxon. (You might need to be elderly/boring/practical/tight to be interested, but anyway)
having, quite a while ago, been an early adopter of a new motor and being “rather disappointed” in reliability, rebuildability and in my case warranty, I have used the maxon online contact form to contact them, to explain my previous experiences (and point out that a certain brands motor is on my no buy list) And ask about their post warranty support (esp given brexit), spares availability , rebuildability and if they would partner/help any local uk rebuild companies become a ‘approved rebuilder’, etc etc, maybe if a few more people drop a line it might help the UK post warranty support situation. Ta
the Amflow appears to be by far the easiest/simplist bike to hack the speed limiter on
Yeah, I think that's what a lot of people are after.. basically a motorbike that they don't need to license.
Type of people who contacted me when I had an ebike for sale with "How fast does it go?".
Certainly not what I need.
the Amflow appears to be by far the easiest/simplist bike to hack the speed limiter on.
From what I've read a fair few of those that have done this have also had issues as the bike tries to adjust to a speed sensor it's not designed for. I'd have also thought avinox / amflow would be able to recognise when this has been done by analysing the ride data the bike records and it'll void the warranty.
Not sure if it's still possible but you could install a VPN on the Amflow and tell it that you're in a country with no speed restrictions (New Zealand I think)
And last month it got me around a 50-mile 3250 feet route using 81% of the weedy 248Wh battery over 3hrs10mins, despite using max turbo up most of the 265-340 feet hills, right on the edge of what I can manage these days on a good day.
yeah but at that point I’d prefer to be on an analogue bike
I recently did a 42 mile 5,000ft ride on my Rise LT 630wh. First half of the ride I had it in something like 25nm . After about 25 miles I still had 70% battery left so proceeded to use the full 85nm. IMO if your not using the fun bit of an emtb you may as well save a load of cash on go analogue. Also made me think having a 2nd set of wheels setup for XC duties would be beneficial
My comments on Amflow using more battery were based on watching that Lancashire bloke on YT go up Snowdon. He did it slightly quicker than I did but used much more battery to the point the first time he did it he had to come back down the same way. 2nd time he did it he came back via rangders but used pretty much all his 800wh battery . When I did it I did rangers back, then went and rode around Penchamano on my Rise 630wh
On the plus side for me, I'd much rather stick to carrying my 16Kg ebike upstairs and downstairs at home, I'm not convinced I'd manage anything close to 25Kg these days. And last month it got me around a 50-mile 3250 feet route using 81% of the weedy 248Wh battery over 3hrs10mins, despite using max turbo up most of the 265-340 feet hills, right on the edge of what I can manage these days on a good day.
@n0b0dy0ftheg0at what eBike is that ?
GT egrade Bolt
Does a light and not weedy power eBike exist ?
Yes... Anything with a Bosch SX motor fitted...
Don't confuse torque and power remember!
Where other lower torque eBike motors have a similar power plateau around 70rpm or so as most full power motors (albeit they're producing significantly less power at this point), Bosch's SX power graph doesn't plateau until around 108rpm, where it produces the same 600watts as (pre update) CX does at 70rpm...
OK so maintaining 108rpm is pretty difficult/unlikely even for those brought up on singlespeeds or with the stem focus of Chris Froome, but at 90rpm (far more realistic for most of us who can spin smoothly) it's still making 500watts...
The downside of course is that if you're regularly using that 600W output, then you're going to deplete the 400Wh battery quite quickly of course...
Just ordered a bargain price Canyon Neuron Onfly CF7 with the SX motor to contrast my Gen5 CX powered Mondraker Crafty. Half my riding mates tend to do winch and plummet style riding on full fat Enduro eBikes, the other half tend to still do more traditional trail riding on lighter weight mid or low assist eBikes. I of course still really enjoy doing both, but have found the limitations to both types of eBikes (weight and motor cutoff on flatter trails for full power bike, relative lack of torque and often suspension travel/geometry on lighter power bikes) for differing terrains, so have simply decided that now is the time to have one of each...
The Bosch SX system is interesting, but I've only seen it fitted to a Canadian brand that kept snapping stays.....
As above, the cadence sounds too high, but the other day a customer came in for the second time complaining that her bike would only go 15km and then die, and it was 'unrideable'. The diagnostic equipment had previously told us that her cadence was in the low 50s, but she ignored our advice to pedal faster. Out of interest I took the bike out, put it in the max assist mode and hit the climb with the display showing my cadence. I just pedaled at my normal cadence, thinking it was 60-70rpm, but was surprised to see it was 80-90+. I got to the point in the climb where I hit 10% left, then turned around. I did 27km in all and the battery died just as I got to the shop, compared to the customers 15. The battery size was 360w IIRC.
Someone was commenting on the Levo SL above. I took mine out the other day for 3 hours and didn't bother to try and conserve energy as I installed the range extender. I'd have got home fine without it though. The bike weighs 43lb with coil suspension front and rear, thicc tires, and no weight savings anywhere. Rides pretty well like a normal bike.
Depends what you want really. If you want to pedal at 50rpm at turbo mega boost, you'll need a full power bike for sure.
Lots of info and comparisons, reviews on bikes, motors, batteries etc.
the one that sticks out are bikes using the maxon bike drive air s. But no big mainstream manufacturer onboard that I can see, one large ish Swiss manufacturer. And a small British manufacturer.
My (limited) Bosch SX experience is that it's great on road, and tracks that are like roads such as fire roads, but rubbish at proper offroad climbs where cadence drops and rocks and steps need to be negotiated. Would be ideal if you want the motor to help get you to the proper trails (eg Golfie style winch and plummet). I'd go for a motor with more torque paired to a small battery myself for all-round mountain biking.
The Bosch SX system is interesting, . I just pedaled at my normal cadence, thinking it was 60-70rpm, but was surprised to see it was 80-90+. I got to the point in the climb where I hit 10% left, then turned around. I did 27km in all and the battery died just as I got to the shop, compared to the customers 15. The battery size was 360w IIRC.
Depends what you want really. If you want to pedal at 50rpm at turbo mega boost, you'll need a full power bike for sure.
That's interesting. The Orbea Rise is, I believe limited to 400W (rather than the EP8's normal 600) so the SX motor is matching that at a cadence of 80. Like you, my normal cadence seems to be 80-90 and I can hit over 100 briefly for a watt bike sprint.
My partners cadence is lower and she sometimes doesn't get the power out of her Rise, probably for the same reason (I think the Shimano also requires a high cadence for max power, or at least the RS tune of it does). Before getting my first Rise I rode some Bosch and Spec bikes and really didn't like the way they'd just give you all the power at a low cadence.
I only just saw the updatesto the DJI motor - instant start/longer 1000w delivery. looks a bit ridiculous (though so well implemented - it does look like the winner motor right now, so long as you tune it down to sensible levels)
The limit there with the Rise is likely to be torque not power. You (well, your shop) can remove the torque limit on the RS motor unit, while your settings can keep the power lower to preserve battery life.
But... spin to win.
The DJI motor updates (and some recent Bosch CX ones) are a joke. Especially if you want to use a small battery efficiently on a lighter weight bike. They also make riding your ebike less like cycling+, and more like motorbike- .
the one that sticks out are bikes using the maxon bike drive air s. But no big mainstream manufacturer onboard that I can see, one large ish Swiss manufacturer. And a small British manufacturer.
https://ebike-mtb.com/en/maxon-emtbs-eurobike-2025/
It's a small group at the moment, Pole are also testing it for a lightweight ebike in the future. It's interesting to me because it's not mainstream.
The Bosch SX system is interesting, but I've only seen it fitted to a Canadian brand that kept snapping stays.....
theres a fair selection here - https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/ebikes/mountainbike/light#motor=302
@kelvin "The limit there with the Rise is likely to be torque not power. You (well, your shop) can remove the torque limit on the RS motor unit, while your settings can keep the power lower to preserve battery life"
No, it's not. It's the power that's limited. The Rise 25 in RS+ mode (there are two factory modes) gives full 85nm in boost, but is limited in power. The relationship between torque and power is complex but my understanding is that it means you'll get us as steep a slope as any other shimano powered bike, but slightly slower. It definitely gives you a long range with a relatively smaller battery. I'm sure there are ways of getting the standard Shimano firmware on there (and I know some people have had replacement motors on older Rises that didn't have the Orbea firmware, but it's not simply something you can change in the Shimano phone app.
The SX was fitted in the Mondraker Dune XR we had for a weeks loan, it was really a lovely lovely thing, very quiet motor and very responsive.
Original EP8 RS was limited on torque and power (by software). Sounded as if that was what you were talking about. Should be fine at lower cadence with the EP801 RS+ with the higher torque… unless turning the pedals very slowly. It’s not like the SX motor at all in that respect.
the one that sticks out are bikes using the maxon bike drive air s. But no big mainstream manufacturer onboard that I can see, one large ish Swiss manufacturer. And a small British manufacturer.
https://ebike-mtb.com/en/maxon-emtbs-eurobike-2025/
It's a small group at the moment, Pole are also testing it for a lightweight ebike in the future. It's interesting to me because it's not mainstream.
thanks, I’ve already read that, none of that list I’ve heard of before.
There’s also an article on whether the current SL segment is worth having anymore, as maxon have shown decent power can be had at a lighter weight, dji too.
I'm sadly in no rush, but I’d be happier parting with my cash when the maxon motor is more main stream, proven reliability and I know what the support line looks like.
Very similar situation to I was in with the full fat Moterra - such a great fun bike to ride, always in the back of my mind I'd like something lighter.. I even upgraded the forks and wheels to try to get that out of my mind! Then the Moterra SL came up, practically brand new, half price. Couldn't resist! It's slightly less nutty (not so much of a monster truck!) to plough through everything, but it's a pleasure to move around and has almost the same power.
From what I've read a fair few of those that have done this have also had issues as the bike tries to adjust to a speed sensor it's not designed for. I'd have also thought avinox / amflow would be able to recognise when this has been done by analysing the ride data the bike records and it'll void the warranty.
The latest firmware throws an error if the bike detects 'invalid' data from the speed sensor because you have fitted a speedo ring with the 'wrong' number of slots.
There’s also an article on whether the current SL segment is worth having anymore, as maxon have shown decent power can be had at a lighter weight, dji too.
Currently looking at a Forbidden Druid CorE to replace my KSL, but there is a massive wait to get these, unless you were lucky enough to get in early.
Seriously considering the LitE as there is a bit less of a wait for these and can over stroke the shock to get back to 150mm travel, but the 600Wh battery just seems silly small. It's not, really though, unless you want to razz everywhere at 120Nm/1000W
Currently looking at a Forbidden Druid CorE to replace my KSL, but there is a massive wait to get these
Tweed Valley Bikes appear to have them in medium and large, only lowest spec version tho
https://tweedvalleybikes.co.uk/products/forbidden-druid-lite-3-pre-order