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Oh, I see you edited out your non-apology…
Yes, it seemed a stupid, pointless sort of hill to die on. Like I said, I didn't mean to offend anyone, I'm not sure why you're being quite so prickly about this, but if you think it's genuinely offensive and against the spirit of the forum etc, report my original post to the mods. It wasn't meant personally, but you seem to have taken it that way and I'm genuinely sorry that it seems to have caused you distress. Can we just leave it there rather than going round in round in circles with me apologising and you telling me off?
I guess I get bored of the same idiocy, particular from older people, whenever anything changes or progresses. Instead of accepting that new or different can be a good thing they like to blame it on a trend or fashion or something else that suggests people can’t have different views that are valid.
Where did I say any of that? I am genuinely slightly perplexed.
I thought northerners were supposed to be friendly. Or is this the straight talking we hear about? Winky face
op
kona honzo Esd may be worth a look.
Puts head above parapet......I found the geometry comment funny, in a light hearted let's not offend anyone and just have a chuckle kind of way....
BWD - maybe some birch twig thrashing would be adequate payment for your sins?
The back-and-forth analysis of said comment is even better when "No wonder forums are dying..." is added to the mix.
Regarding the bike stuff....
Sonder seem to have a few options. I think someone mentioned the Transmitter or the Falco....
There's stuff from Ragley, and the Stif Squatch looks nice.
I'd forgotten about Kinesis (almost bought their gravel bike a couple of years ago), but that FF29 in black bronze looks amazing!
A non-apology is a proportionate response when having done nothing to apologise for.
Yeah, sorry about that.
The stif squatch is brilliant, I’d definitely grab one if I was in the market. Surprisingly versatile in how you can build it up.
sonder transmitter is also decent and very cost effective, seen plenty at enduro events in the south west. Unfashionable but just well made and very good
marin San Quentin is available cheap frame only and when I was on the very active nukeproof scout group on Facebook quite a few people on there switched to the Marin which was surprising. I had a scout and loved it, but plenty of other options out there as good or better in my opinion. Currently on a canyon stoic which often gets overlooked as not a manufacturer you’d associate with more progressive hardtails, but it’s magic. Think it’s the shorter stays which help it rail on corners.
With aggressive (hardcore) hardtails I am a firm believer in Andrew (Meat Engines/NSMN) Major’s rule of -2*.
Any hardtail hardtail needs the head angle an£ seat angle to be 2 degrees slacker than it’s full suspension equivalent to take into account the fact that only the fork sags.
Yeah I'd agree with this too, and it's annoying that most companies seem to list the geo at static when they'll never be ridden like that, so it's up to the customer to figure out the actual riding geometry. I like that Cotic give you both measurements and with different fork travels so it's easier to compare with other frames.
Fair enough ... But the Scandal frames are currently on sale at £150 at the minute. Having happily owned plenty of OO/PX bikes over the years, not sure what your issue is ...
In the interest of fairness I just took a look, it’s plenty of frame for the money, and I would be tempted, but the actual geometry is a bit “vanilla” I’d end up on the Large for the reach I want, the seat angle is a bit laid back compared to what I’m looking for. It’s just not quite what I’m after. Plus I already have a cheap, basic Al 29er (my rigid bike) which has pretty similar geometry to the Scandal…
Also I’ve owned bikes from PX/OO before, including a £150 “bargain” which taught me to be wary of PX when they’re offloading (dumping) something, £150 is a fair sum to gamble on such a thing, but you know what they say about looking in a gift Horse’s mouth…
I’ve been mulling it further and I think I’m going to stick to my original budget constraint, that would score me what I’m after used or from the sonder outlet on eBay. It would be easy to double the spend and get a BFe, but I really don’t want to go getting precious over whatever I end up buying and ~£350 will get me what I’m looking for with some judicious shopping about and concessions on material and/or rear wheel size…
I'd say Orange Crush fits the bill. I've got a 150mm Mattoc on mine which idms million miles away from the crappy Rev that it came with. 2.6 tyres either end made the biggest difference. It flies everywhere. Mine isn't at the cutting edge geometry wise with a 65 HA. I've often though about an angleset and whether it would improve things but I never really feel like I need it to be slacker.
I get the thinking about dynamic head angle changes with a long fork but in practice, I don't notice it. Damping on the Mattoc probably helps.
27.5 wheels also probably help because when needed, I can actually get my weight right back without a back wheel enema occurring.
When looking around for a beater hardtail frame a couple of years ago i bought a ragley big al in the chiggle sale. I wasn't expecting much from it due to my inner bike snobbery (853 Steel blah blah) but its turned out to be one of the best purchases ive ever made. So much so that the ragley + my orbea wild eeb have made my "do it all" trail bike (cotic jeht) pretty redundant and now going up for sale.
I've just stuck the latest 150 Lyrik Ultimates on it and its even better.
@OP
If you're interested in a size Large brand new unused Big Al frmae (the most recent one, in blue) then send me a PM. Considering selling mine before I build it up as have been distracted by something else, need the cash etc... Also have fork/wheel/component build options.
There was a good video from the hardtail party guy comparing alloy and steel versions of the same frame, I think it was the Ragley Big Al and Big Wig. He concluded that the Big Al felt nicer, both from the lightness but also being more compliant IIRC.
Steel is inherently triple the stiffness of aluminium so if the tubes aren't slim enough a steel bike could be stiffer.
"I get the thinking about dynamic head angle changes with a long fork but in practice, I don't notice it. Damping on the Mattoc probably helps."
Full-sus bikes constantly change head angle too - the difference with hardtails is that they all steepen between static and sag. But once both types of bike are being ridden they constantly change and we're all fine with it. When it's a problem on a full-sus we might adjust the suspension etc, whilst on a hardtail we could blame it on stapler effect instead of sorting out our fork (and raising the bars because we set them too low based on static setp-up).
In the interest of fairness I just took a look, it’s plenty of frame for the money, and I would be tempted, but the actual geometry is a bit “vanilla” I’d end up on the Large for the reach I want, the seat angle is a bit laid back compared to what I’m looking for.
I think this is a fair assessment. It looks like a very useable but not just right. Close enough for me to grab one at that price though.
That Orange Crush looks awesome in terms of geometry, they've been on the long chainstay wagon for years now. Kinesis looks very promising too, though I prefer fixed chainstays for simplicty. They probably know how to make a comfy alu frame too.
I always go back to a HT, whether 140mm or 160mm, that's not important. My last one was a 24 Big Al. Brilliant and relatively forgiving particularly compared to one of those heavy stiff steel frames 😉.
But on this occasion, having build a Revel Rascal down to 13kg, not sure I am going back to a HT. The Rascal climbs so well and is actually more versatile while reducing fatigue...
I have just moved from a Big Al to a Cotic BFE. Both running 160mm forks. The Big Al frame is hanging in the shed now, give me a shout if you want to make an offer on it (size large) and i can send you some more photos of the frame.
In the Singletrack Spirit of Recommending What You Have (TM), I only tore my genuinely excellent On-One Scandal apart because I got one of the Chiggle fire sale Ragley Marley frames as a birthday present. It took me a while to gel with it, and even almost a year later I'm still not sure it's any better than the Scandal.
I also built number one son a Sonder Transmitter as a project to keep me sane-ish during covid. I'll happily grab that for a thrash down the woods as well...
. The Big Al frame is hanging in the shed now, give me a shout if you want to make an offer on it (size large) and i can send you some more photos of the frame
cheers for the offer, but based on Reach I think I would want a Medium.
In the Singletrack Spirit of Recommending What You Have (TM)
+1 (TM)
Last summer I built a Stanton Switch9er. Bit of a dream build. Stanton recommend 140mm travel (+/- 20mm) I went for 150mm fork coz more is better right?
I been out of MTBs for a while. My previous bike was a BFe 26er. Always fancied a 'hardcore' HT.
I am astounded how capable my Stanton is. Climbs well no wandering. Eats up the steep downhill stuff and absolutely fine for a day at BPW. OK it's steel, and a new frame is out of your budget. But frames turn up regularly. If this peaks your interest and if you're on FB they come up regularly on the Stanton owners group.
*(I’m not buying anything from PX/OO before it’s suggested)
On One Scandal
It's a shaped lump of metal, the soul of whichever customer service chat-bot hurt you isn't trapped in the downtube.
It's a shaped lump of metal, the soul of whichever customer service chat-bot hurt you isn't trapped in the downtube.
Can you guarantee that?
I did (happily enough) serve my time on a 456 (Remember those), and I do still own a (Wizards Sleeve edition) London Road as my Winter Roadie.
I do think it's fair to rule out a specific company based on both prior experiences of their CS practices, and some assessment of their current products, I do note the 'Hello Dave' is less competitively priced (this week), if that was going for ~£150 I'd maybe consider it... But it isn't, and probably never will be.
There are some compromises that just aren't quite worth it, not that I'd never buy an OO/PX product again but it's got to be something I actually want (not just cheap) and at a price that doesn't feel like a big loss when it doesn't achieve my expectations...
Well this has moved along a little now, I just won an auction on a Medium mmmbop. It’s not a dream bike, but the geometry numbers are in the ballpark for what I wanted, it’s cheap and as I have to build/buy a new rear wheel whatever, it looks like I’ll be going mullet, which I’m kind of looking forward to trying TBH.
The other advantage to the mmmbop is that it would allow me to do my easy switch from normal geared to uplift day SS idea with the external routing and ISCG05 tabs. I’ll have to build one “tough” and one “sensible” rear wheel for that, with corresponding tyres (open to suggestions?).
Anyway cheers for all the input everyone.
as I have to build/buy a new rear wheel whatever, it looks like I’ll be going mullet, which I’m kind of looking forward to trying TBH.
You do realise an mmmbop is full 27 don't you?
Big Al is the 29 version of the bop
You do realise an mmmbop is full 27 don't you?
Big Al is the 29 version of the bop
Yep I fully comprehend, but also there aren´t that many "native" Mullet designed bikes about so you either jack up the front of a 27.5" or drop the arse of a 29er, unless they have special Dropouts, like for example a BFE, but this frame cost me less than 1/3rd of what a BFE would so it´s a worthwhile experiment (IMO).
As for the mmmbop and Big Al they´re basically the same front end geometry, essentially all that is different is the BB drop and Fork A-C (and of course Wheel Radius)... Like I noted several times already though I can dial my fork up and down from 180-140mm, so at it´s shortest setting it´ll be about the same A-C as a 160mm 27.5" fork, then my 29" wheel will raise the front another 20mm so yeah it´s going to probably be about -0.5deg(ish) Head angle Vs the "ideal" chart number... Will the sky fall for the sake of 20mm? (although I might try it set to 160mm first just to see if I get a nosebleed with a ≈61.5deg Head angle)...
I´m far from the first person to mullet an mmmbop, this is just a cheap experiment for me, I may build a 27.5" front wheel, I might buy a Big Al or some other frame down the line. The options are almost endless...
https://www.pinkbike.com/video/102365/
This guy seemed to manage on a relatively steep HTA bike. Probably better than most on here with their FS sledges!
"This guy seemed to manage on a relatively steep HTA bike. Probably better than most on here with their FS sledges!"
I love that old video - Jinya's riding amazed me when I returned to MTBing in '09 and was one reason I stuck with a hardtail for quite a few years! I rode my Cotic Soul with similar geometry at Antur but I'd rather not do that now. I've rewatched that video many times over the years but seeing it now, although the jumps are beyond my skills/bravery the rest seems far more attainable on my Moxie. And nowadays Jinya's on a much longer slacker bigger wheeled bike like most of us.
We know that reaction times slow down as we age - maybe we need slacker bikes with slower and more stable handling because we're getting older and can't keep a steep bike on track like our younger selves?
idiocy, particular from older people
reported.
reported.
And you can tell I'm old because I put a full stop after "reported". Even though I forgot to start it with a capital letter.
This guy seemed to manage on a relatively steep HTA bike. Probably better than most on here with their FS sledges!
I have distant memories of me and a mate hammering our way down Cwmcarn on Dirt Jump bikes I was on a SS Trailstar with a 4" fork, a single 160mm rear brake and 24" wheels!... In my head it was just like that video... Reality was less impressive.
I no longer have the wrists, ankles or lack of fear necessary for such nonsense... Better forks/brakes/tyres (and geometry) seem like fair things to want now, even if I'm going to forego the rear suspension.
Fun hardtail you say...
Bit late, plus I'm nowhere near Leeds and I think it might be too big, but otherwise cheers.
Good choice on the Mmmmmbop. My mini a11ys have the shorter-forked Ragley Marleys and they're brilliant. Great geometry and don't weight a ton, seem to be reasonably compliant too. Really nice for a 'budget' hardtail.
Thought I’d just unearth this one for some more advice from the tyre experts. The postie has just been and I have 3 quite different tyres to choose from for the rear:
L->R Schwalbe Rock Razor super trail, Conti Trail King Pure Grip, Pirelli Scorpion Enduro S (Hard wall).
All 27.5x2.6”.
For upcoming use (general summer trail riding) I’m currently favouring the Rock razor as it looks fastish, lighter and probably pairs well with the Nobby Nick on the front currently, but the Trail King is in the running. First appraisal on the Scorpion is that it feels like a more aggressive tyre, better for uplifts and big days out? Possibly a candidate to fit to my planned second rear wheel(?).
input and criticism from the collective please…
Probably the rock razor unless you are going to put a grippier tyre than a NN on the front.
I have a Rock Razer on the back of my hard tail, 2.6. It was meant tho be a summer tyre but it's been on for 18 month because it's ace and I've never needed more.
I’ve already done a rapid tape job, and put the RR on dry (new sealant still on its way) went up nice and easy, looks good, I might change the front tyre, but probably not immediately. The tread depth on the trail king doesn’t look much different to the RR, just the lug shapes and spacing, they might be more similar than I’d realised.
I have no clue about all the different makes compounds and marketing names, so if I’ve bought utterly inappropriate products here feel free to tell me.
What are people’s thoughts on that Scorpion, seems a bit meaty for just knocking about in the woods to me, I’m inclined to reserve it for harder duties, or have I missed the point again?
Thought I’d just unearth this one for some more advice from the tyre experts. The postie has just been and I have 3 quite different tyres to choose from for the rear:
L->R Schwalbe Rock Razor super trail, Conti Trail King Pure Grip, Pirelli Scorpion Enduro S (Hard wall).
All 27.5x2.6”.
For upcoming use (general summer trail riding) I’m currently favouring the Rock razor as it looks fastish, lighter and probably pairs well with the Nobby Nick on the front currently, but the Trail King is in the running. First appraisal on the Scorpion is that it feels like a more aggressive tyre, better for uplifts and big days out? Possibly a candidate to fit to my planned second rear wheel(?).
input and criticism from the collective please…
Rock Razor, unless you are changing tyre brand on the front also. We're not animals, goddammit
Oh I’m going to be mixing the brands I look forward to triggering the aficionados 😉
The Rock Razor is a great rear tyre when it’s dry and far less bad than you’d expect when it’s wet.
The Trail King / Rubber Queen was my rear tyre of choice for a long time - it rolls fairly fast and if you drop the pressure enough the widely spaced centre tread is good at tractoring up through mud and wet roots, however that was the Black Chili not Pure Grip (less grippy) one.
If you need something for the front the T9 compound Grid Trail casing Specialized tyres are good, especially for the money.
I had a Chromag hardtail* and ran a 180mm fork (mainly because I switched from 29er plus wheels to normal 29er, and the long fork stopped the BB dragging along the ground....) and fork diving was a non-issue. It's not like you spend a whole ride hucking to flat with your legs locked. For the most part you are riding AT features, the fork absorbs it, then you bend your legs to absorb the shock as the rear wheel hits. The only time the fork 'dives' is going off drops, and that is for a split second. The head angle was roughly 63 degrees. Sure, it might be more of an issue if it was 70 degrees 😀
*that Andrew Major who keeps being mentioned bought off me. The Klein themed one that he's just added sliding dropouts to.
Well it’s put together:
Not its final state but rideable, quick spin round the block and it’s not bad, currently stuck with a 160mm rear rotor till some longer bolts arrive seems comfortable climbing. Wheel flop is significant until I weight the front a bit, but the fork is maybe set a smidge stiff and not quite sagging properly since I reduced the travel to 140mm.
I wasn’t expecting to get it together before the end of summer now I have to clear some weekend time to ride the thing and decide what to change before next year…