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So I actually went for a ride on a mountain bike the other day, my rigid one, fun local spin, rode some of the cheeky and thoroughly enjoyed it. But it got me thinking.
I love the rigid MTB, bargain bin build nothing much to go wrong, pretty adaptable… But my little woodland spin might have been more fun with a bouncy fork and more modern geometry. My other MTB is an over-forked stumpy evo 29, an old one from 2016, and I keep saying I’ll buy a new frame next year (maybe an aether 29) and build myself a better trail and bike parks machine.
then I started looking at “hardcore hardtails” again and the idea of a 15-160mm forked bike started to grow, I think I want a Ragley Big Al or NP scout 290 (both of which are impossible to buy new now since the death of chiggle) Aluminium, slack head, steep seat, 29” ( but I’d consider mullet) £350 tops (new).
But I think I’ve just missed the “wave” there was a sweet spot mid Covid where these bikes were being made, has the bubble sort of burst? It all seems to be expensive steel or watered down geometry on the Al versions (and a bit of a markup)
Or am I just not googling proper?
I’m a patient man and now is not the time to go chopping and changing functioning bikes while summer is here, I want to buy and build a frame over winter I think, possibly bin off suspension altogether for a while(?) so I don’t have to buy something tomorrow and be riding it next week, but it sort of feels like the thing I want vanished from the market about 18 months ago and I’m going to end up scratching through eBay…
*(I’m not buying anything from PX/OO before it’s suggested)
They're still out there, but they tend to be more niche builders. I think geometry has started to settle down a bit and that means there are less options trying 'experimental' geo.
The burley hardtail always seemed to be a perculiarly UK thing so you'll always find numbers somewhat limited.
Personally think 140 is about the limit - beyond that the geometry changes under compression become really significant. I rarely ride it but still enjoy my mk 2 Big Al (the final gen was built for 150-160 forks).
I can ride pretty much anything on my 130mm Bird Zero 29. If I was getting new forks I'd try and get some 140mm but it's great with 130mm.
If I go down the road of binning the stumpy off all together the forks I have on it are Mezzers, so quibbling over travel brackets is sort of besides the point I can adjust them anywhere from 140 to 180.
Honestly looking at the Big Al it seems almost perfect (on paper).
But some others are growing on me, some of them steel, cotic BFE for example ticks lots of nice boxes including being mullet-able and presenting all travel options on their sizing charts, both sonder signal and transmitter are kind of appealing, but each come with compromises. Bird are in the list, but they seem to have ideas (and pricing) above their station (IMO).
Basically my budget is too low and my want for Aluminium is off-trend, but there are some viable options. Cheers all.
I just ordered a Sonder signal ti which comes with 130mm pikes. After looking for more hardcore hardtails it seems that they are limited in choice now. I think as others have said the modern geometry has meant that longer fork travel isn’t necessary anymore and too compromised when it comes to the head angle under compression.
Orange Crush? They have some discounted frames on their website.
Part of the reason steel prices are shooting up is that brands are bringing production closer to home which costs them more. See Cotic and Pace.
If you’re looking for a budget aluminium hardtail with decent geometry that rides will the you could always look at something like the Calibre Line T3 or T2 29 Or 27. Good geometry, big tyres, not too expensive and ride really nicely and if you don’t like the Recon forks you can fit your Mezzers. I know the Bossnut always gets all the attention, but these are great bikes (I think there might even be an STW review of one).
I have the older Line 29 and it’s been a great bike.
I originally bought it as a cheap Lockdown bike when my kids were toddlers and I wasn’t getting out much (so couldn’t justify buying another fancy bike) and ended up just keeping it and riding it for the last 5 years until I got an ebike.
Otherwise there’s always the Stif Squatch, Cotic, Stanton’s, Curtis, the Bird, Kona Honzo (ESD), Chromag, Norco Torrent, Rocky Mountain Growler, Pipe dream and many more niche brands . Most big brands release a decent hardtail now and again, but they don’t tend to hang around that long.
THE Roscoe is another great bike, my brother has one and it’s great (140 fork, fat tyres, good geometry).
"seem to have ideas (and pricing) above their station "
That's an odd comment.
modern geometry has meant that longer fork travel isn’t necessary anymore and too compromised when it comes to the head angle under compression.
This is a thing , but it's over stated IMO.
That's an odd comment.
Is it, oh well…
The Calibre Line 29 looks interesting, shame there’s no frame only option, not sure if I want to buy a whole bike and immediately start stripping it, worth consideration though.
another interesting one I happened upon, Kenesis FF29, Aluminium, a good kilo lighter than most of the steel options, sliding dropouts so adjustable and single-speedable, not horrendously expensive either, might be a bit under gunning it and they seem to suggest 140mm is the limit for the fork but it’s a contender still.
modern geometry has meant that longer fork travel isn’t necessary anymore and too compromised when it comes to the head angle under compression.
Meh, it’s all reach and wheelbase innit, nobody really understands the numbers, there are definitely fashions, more fork eateing more bumps Vs more flopping about when you’re trying to climb… the most useful things that have happened over the last few years are sizing taking more account of reach and steeper seat angles. The slackness and fork travel are almost incidental. Full disclosure this isn’t my first Hardcore HT, I owned a few “interesting” bikes during the dark old days of 26” wheels, all boat anchors with geometry that would terrify you today.
having once owned a HT with Boxxers I agree there is such a thing as too much fork, but I have also owned bikes with too little. I’m in the fortunate position of being able to tweak whatever I eventually get.
Very out of my depth with stuff like this (and indeed most things cycle related), but I suspect your budget may limit things. Having had a quick look around, would this work?
https://kinesisbikes.co.uk/products/kinesis-frame-ff29-orange?variant=49442183250246
https://kinesisbikes.co.uk/collections/mountain-bike/products/kinesis-frame-ff29-black
Based around 140mm fork though, not 160.
I always come back to those kind of "hardcore" hardtails, I seem to go in cycles of getting a FS to give me more confidence to try bigger stuff, then when I get comfy on that I end up going back to a HT and riding it on that. Then it repeats itself!
The new Cotic BFe looks really cool apart from the boring colour options - maybe they'll introduce some more at some point. I like the idea of having one and 2 sets of wheels - a lighter xc/trail full 29" wheelset & tyres for pedally rides, then a burlier mullet wheelset with bigger tyres for the fun stuff. 130mm-ish feels like a nice sweet spot on a HT, I used to have 170mm on my old Dartmoor Hornet and it was a divey unbalanced mess.
Also been looking at the Banshee hardtails because they look so nice, but I don't think they have a size that suits me perfectly on either hardtail.
If you want a NP scout there’s usually plenty for sale on Facebook marketplace. And they don’t hold value brilliantly so some bargains
Look for an identiti aka as well. Lower travel front but excellent aluminium frames
If the budget isn’t huge, look at the Merida Big Trail series. I’m really impressed with mine - cost me approx £700. There is a newer model now that is updated even more. They always review well and the frame seems really well made. They come stock with 140mm forks.
If you want an alloy 29” 140mm hardtail there’s the mainstream Trek Roscoe and Canyon Stoic. Bird Zero 29 from a more niche brand. Banshee Paradox for a more boutique thing (clever forgings for a smoother feel).
On the bigger forked steel front the Marin El Roy and Kona Honzo aren’t so expensive.
I went from steel to alloy and back to steel, whilst going 26 to 27.5 to 29. And going longer and slacker (and much lower and then back up a bit). And also tried 100, 140, 130, 140, 150, 160mm travel across those bikes (with progressively better forks). It might not be logical but the steel 160mm 29er feels far and away the best of the lot - fast, responsive, controlled, confident, and very fun. Not cheap (Pipedream Moxie with Lyrik RC2).
I’d forgotten those other alloy hardtails - I knew there were quite a few with modern geometry, it’s nice to see more brands offering ones that I know will handle well for less XC riding. The Moxie seems quite expensive for a hardtail frame but I doubt it’ll feel it over its lifespan - certainly doesn’t after just three years of fun.
…I like the idea of having one and 2 sets of wheels - a lighter xc/trail full 29" wheelset & tyres for pedally rides, then a burlier mullet wheelset with bigger tyres for the fun stuff….
I was having similar thoughts while out riding earlier today. More along the lines of having a normal workhorse pair of 29” wheels and just swapping the rear for a meatier 27.5” if I was off for an uplift day or something. The other idea that tickled me was singlespeeding that Mullet wheel, with external routing and a matchmaker lever, I could whip the mech/shifter off as a ‘loom’ slap in a SS rear wheel, and a shorter chain and a day of smashing downhill just lost another potential worry. Could do that on the BFE (With a tensioner) or the FF29 with its sliding dropouts.
The FF29 is designed for a 140mm fork, but really, what would be the harm in trying it at 150mm? That plus the Mezzer would be a pretty light basis for a trail HT.
The Roscoe is interesting, I need to read up on it, it might go on the list too. Merida Big Trail is on there too, frame only options are limited from such manufacturers, but there’s always eBay I suppose.
HT owner here, riding mostly in the Peak. I'd agreed with other posters that if you have too much travel at the front end the head angle increases too much as the fork compresses. Obviously on a FS the back compresses roughly in-line with the front.
I ride a Bird Zero 29er with 140mm Fox 36s and I love it. When I first got it a year ago I had a bit of a love hate relationship. Two biggest changes for me were the replacement of the Rockshox Revelation for the Fox fork which is way more capable and shorter 165mm cranks as the BB drop is quite aggressive so I was constantly hitting pedals on the old 175mm cranks. I didn't think 10mm would make much difference but it really has.
Edit: If you can stretch I'd be looking at grabbing one of those, great VFM. I was tempted myself, even though I don't need one.
https://www.stifmtb.com/collections/stif-squatch/products/stif-squatch-v1-1-am-kit
The stif squach is amazing. I love mine
I love my Ragley Marley with 140mm forks.
If I was buying, I’d look at an Orbea Laufey.
*(I’m not buying anything from PX/OO before it’s suggested)
Fair enough ... But the Scandal frames are currently on sale at £150 at the minute. Having happily owned plenty of OO/PX bikes over the years, not sure what your issue is ...
On one for the budget win?
Hello Dave in steel or Wrecker in Ti
Scandal in Al or Vandal in Ti
They have all been cheap and expensive so I'm sure you can find one them in budget most days.
“I'd agreed with other posters that if you have too much travel at the front end the head angle increases too much as the fork compresses. Obviously on a FS the back compresses roughly in-line with the front.”
I’m so bored of people saying this because it’s almost complete bollocks. On a full-sus the front and rear move independently - land to flat and they move in unison, but brake down anything steep and the front dives as the rear rises (especially on most Horst links), land front heavy and the front dives, hit something with the front and it compresses and then extends and then the rear follows, etc.
Basically the geometry of MTBs with any suspension changes constantly as they’re ridden. Get the geometry right (which needs to be the geometry around dynamic sag) and get the suspension set-up right and you can run loads of travel. Some might like more travel, some might like less.
Short, steep, tall old hardcore hardtails with basic forks will work better with shorter forks because they’re not a great shape to start with and the big fork raises the BB, shortens the reach, slackens the seat angle and bounces back and forth between those issues and the other issue of the head angle being too steep at full compression.
Things like the Moxie, Doctahawk, etc are built for ~170mm forks and they ride so well with them. With the 160mm Lyrik RC2 on the Moxie it feels almost like a super short travel full-sus with a big fork, like at the BB your feet are sitting into the travel at sag. It still has that kicky rear and hardtail responsiveness but there’s a subtle smoothness.
I’m not sure I’d want a more basic damper though, I think a big fork hardtail needs a really good big fork!
the Scandal frames are currently on sale at £150 at the minute. Having happily owned plenty of OO/PX bikes over the years, not sure what your issue is ...
It'd be rude not to at that price. I paid £150 for mine five years ago and it was a good deal then. The Selcof headsets offered as a bundle extra are fine, wouldn't bother with the seat clamp.
https://planetx.co.uk/products/on-one-scandal-29er-mtb-frame
The Trek Roscoes are pretty good. I looked at them a while back but was put off by the 141mm dropout weirdness, but they've since gone to 148 and now make a load more sense. I do like a singlespeed, though.
Another option - albeit second hand -is what I have at the moment: a Specialized Fuse M4. Singlespeedable, nice manners, good finishes and a lot of nice little touches in terms of design and manufacturing. The only thing I don't enjoy is the seat tube bottle bosses are rivnuts, so I can't fit a longer dropper. Other than that, very nice for someone my height - note the stack on bigger frames is low, but hooge rise bars are all the rage these days....
It's intended for 130mm forks, though - which may make it a non-starter if you want more.
You seem to be looking for new, aluminium and able to take a long-ish fork?
2023 Crush 29 Frame | Orange Bikes
I'd go secondhand myself though.
The Trek Roscoes are pretty good. I looked at them a while back but was put off by the 141mm dropout weirdness, but they've since gone to 148 and now make a load more sense. I do like a singlespeed, though.
Another option - albeit second hand -is what I have at the moment: a Specialized Fuse M4. Singlespeedable, nice manners, good finishes and a lot of nice little touches in terms of design and manufacturing. The only thing I don't enjoy is the seat tube bottle bosses are rivnuts, so I can't fit a longer dropper. Other than that, very nice for someone my height - note the stack on bigger frames is low, but hooge rise bars are all the rage these days....It's intended for 130mm forks, though - which may make it a non-starter if you want more.
Yeah from 2022 onwards the Roscoe got updated geo, boost rear, 29" wheels and are now designed around a 140mm fork (warrantied up to 150mm).
I sold my full suss last year and bought the Roscoe 9 and it's an absolute beast which happily handles everything I rode the on previous bike (NukeProof Mega). It's quite hard to find the 9 now though, and I reckon 7 and 8 would require too many upgrades for an established rider (although I have upgraded my 9 just "because").
That being said, if I was building up a HHT from scratch them I'd probably start with a Cotic BFe,Stanton Switch9er or Transition TransAM.
that Stiff looks like a proper bargain!
Ive got one of these and theyre on sale here £1200 with Revelations and full Deore
https://winstanleysbikes.co.uk/kona-honzo-dl-2022-bike?
Its pretty nuts how capable the bike is, I can ride much everything I can on my 160mm full sus, with the exception of big drops, I run chunky tyres which helps and a Z2 with a trutune insert
With a longish travel fork and long wheelbase, you get the stapler effect of hinging on the back axle and losing reach and getting pushed forward when you compress, so controlled damping / support really is needed, as chief said setup is different from a full sus.
I did look at something slacker like the Kona ESD but felt that would overlap too much with my other bike, if I was just going for 1 bike thought Id happily look at something slacker
I`m loving that kinesis -
My mate picked up one of the better specced Stif Squatch which were an even bigger bargain. He really rates it, they're really nice bikes.
With aggressive (hardcore) hardtails I am a firm believer in Andrew (Meat Engines/NSMN) Major’s rule of -2*.
Any hardtail hardtail needs the head angle an£ seat angle to be 2 degrees slacker than it’s full suspension equivalent to take into account the fact that only the fork sags.
My Line 29 started out with a 65.5* HA and it was really nice, but with its 63.5* head angle (on a 140mm fork) it rides even better. It’s not lost any climbing ability but is just faster on everything else. It’s seat angle is a boy 75.5* which is quite slack nowadays.
Seeing as you've mentioned a Big Al - love mine with 150mm forks. Pretty much as fast as an FS on the local stuff
"With aggressive (hardcore) hardtails I am a firm believer in Andrew (Meat Engines/NSMN) Major’s rule of -2*.
Any hardtail hardtail needs the head angle an£ seat angle to be 2 degrees slacker than it’s full suspension equivalent to take into account the fact that only the fork sags."
I agree! But don't trust the seat angles on the charts because most seat tubes are bent and/or offset - the Moxie chart claims it's 77.5 deg but it's much slacker at (almost any) saddle height so isn't too steep once you add 2 deg of sag. 63 deg HA is true (with 160mm fork static) and excellent. Handles much like my electric full-sus which has almost the same sagged geometry.
I have a Sonder Transmitter with 140mm forks on. It's a bit of an oddity these days thanks to the 650b+ wheel size, but it makes a nice, all-round Peak District bike. I'm sure it's not long or slack enough for people who ride around with geometry tables spewing out of their ears, but it's a fun, capable bike to ride and affordable. I did try it with the fork at 160mm, but it felt more together on the ups with lower travel and the rear end was more of a limiter on fast downs for me anyway.
Sonder also now has a 29" hardtail called the Falco, which looks very much like a scaled-up Transmitter, so that might be worth a look. I guess you could mullet/MX or whatever, a Transmitter, but I've never tried as my fork is a 650b one and won't take a full-on 29" tyre/wheel combo.
I love my FlareMAX and would happily spring for a BeFe and it would probably ride very/a bit more nicely than my Sonder, but I'm happy enough, in my ignorant, geometry-blind way, with what I have.
" I'm sure it's not long or slack enough for people who ride around with geometry tables spewing out of their ears"
Is there really any need to write something like that? No wonder forums are dying...
Is there really any need to write something like that? No wonder forums are dying..
Yeah, sorry, nothing bad intended. Feel free to ask the mods to remove it / rephrase it / whatever makes you happy.
" I'm sure it's not long or slack enough for people who ride around with geometry tables spewing out of their ears"
Is there really any need to write something like that? No wonder forums are dying.
I definitely ride about with geometry tables coming out my ears and I just thought that was funny 😄 :-)
" I'm sure it's not long or slack enough for people who ride around with geometry tables spewing out of their ears"
Is there really any need to write something like that? No wonder forums are dying.
I definitely ride about with geometry tables coming out my ears and I just thought that was funny 😄 :-)
For clarity, it was never my intention to amuse anyone. I'm sorry if I did.
“Can I rephrase it…”
All your rephrasing says the same thing. Why not just say “I like how it handles despite it not being as long or slack as some of these other bikes”?
Different riders like different geometries and the trend towards long and slack and low-ish tends to be faster and more confidence inspiring.
It’s nothing to do with people being geometry focused, geometry geeks or more clever. You can be different without having to put other people down in a sarcastic way.
It’s nothing to do with people being geometry focused, geometry geeks or more clever. You can be different without having to put other people down in a sarcastic way
All your rephrasing says the same thing. Why not just say “I like how it handles despite it not being as long or slack as some of these other bikes”?
Different riders like different geometries and the trend towards long and slack and low-ish tends to be faster and more confidence inspiring.
It’s nothing to do with people being geometry focused, geometry geeks or more clever. You can be different without having to put other people down in a sarcastic way.
All right, I like how it handles despite it not being as long or slack as some of these other bikes. But what I was actually saying is that I'm not really very interested in the geometry, I just like riding the bike, which is slightly different.
You seem to be taking all this very personally, I'm not sure why.
ps: if you genuinely think it's an offensive post, just report it.
Oh, I see you edited out your non-apology…
But the Scandal frames are currently on sale at £150 at the minute.
Gaaaaaaaaaaah, must resist.....
I guess I get bored of the same idiocy, particular from older people, whenever anything changes or progresses. Instead of accepting that new or different can be a good thing they like to blame it on a trend or fashion or something else that suggests people can’t have different views that are valid.