I've seen this a lot in the mags and forums this last couple of years in particular, but what does it mean? Its tagged along with 'specifically for UK riding'.
There are loads of 'designed for the UK' hardtails out there at the moment but what makes them UK ready?
Surely mud is mud, rocks are rocks, roots are roots etc? Riding can't be that different in other parts of the planet can it? Or does it relate to some kind of collective UK riding style?
Is this just more marketing or is there genuinely something in it? Being an ordinary joe, my riding in confined to the UK, so is this something that more well travelled Journo's see?
marketing.
The UK is generally more shity than say California so things like easy to clean pivots / links, well-sealed bearings and mud clearance are important here.
Mud clearance....
mud!
Used to be that a lot of frames had clearance for a back tyre but not much mud on it. It is frequently argued that a lot of moving parts esp bearings and bushings do not cope so well with mud, grit and their repeated washing off.
More cynically, the inclusion of crud catcher bosses. 😀
Isn't it the slack/steep thing that worls well on up/down rides (like trail centres?)
And marketing.
I wondered when mud clearance would crop up. I live near the pretty muddy Mendips and think mud clearance is over stated in the UK. Not that we don't need mud clearance, but as a feature, its over stated.
It goes wider than individual design features too - there's all this talk that the UK is keen on hardtails with big forks that our european cousins don't do and the yanks don't get.
My first bike was a Speicalised Hardrock in '89, it had canti's but my mate's slightly older Rockhopper had brakes attached on the underside of the chainstays ( U brakes ), cos in California they don't have mud! It simply got clogged..... My Hardrock's rear 1.95 tyre regualarly clogged to a standstill with mud. You'd be surprised at how tight on clearances some of the older USA designed bikes were.
Since we've got UK designers making stuff, they've allowed for larger tyres for mud clearances, and people like Hope have driven the use of disc brakes, all to cope with our glorious weather!
Well that's what I think!
cheers
Q
I think LT HT is more mainstream in UK than Europe where xc style is more common/desirable.
yes, but why? The LT hard tail should be equally applicable everywhere, no?
it's designed to fail prematurely and or not fulfil it's duties to keep us in moaning/ranting material
Scienceofficer - Member
yes, but why? The LT hard tail should be equally applicable everywhere, no?
Fashion, marketing, riding style...
IMO UK mimics USA, Europe still has the roadie influence of the 1980s (largely).
So it's not really "designed for the UK", but "successfully marketed in the UK". 😉
Fashion, marketing, riding style...IMO UK mimics USA, Europe still has the roadie influence of the 1980s (largely).
European riders ride bikes, UK riders stand around in the trail centre car park discussing how they crashed on the drop-off because there "insert latest fade component" failed.
i read an interesting article a while back (think it was st) about how the uk market has driven mtb on so much.
mud clearence
better sealing on forks, headsets, pivots
disc brakes on ALL bikes
trail geometery
full length cables
more or less have been driven by the uk.
IMO UK mimics USA
i disagree look at the steep 6" bikes that the us (used to) do that people here don't get and don't buy
Europe still has the roadie influence of the 1980s (largely)
Looking at the mags we get here in Sweden I think that's a correct statement. The majority of riders are interested in low weight, XC missiles, no matter how inappropriate they are for the local terrain. On the other hand, a lot of the guys I ride with are selling their XC bikes in favour of more typical UK trail bikes. There're at least 2 456's and a Cotic and DMR amongst the riders now.
I haven't ridden in the UK for few years now but, from the way the UK mags portray it, it does seem that a lot of US companies are making bikes specifically for the UK market now. Most of the UK thing now, looks to me like the need for cheap(er), reliable parts instead of super hi-tech idiocy*.
*that being said, I haven't ridden a trailcentre since the first year Glentress opened. Me and a friend were the only ones there on a Sunday in the middle of summer 😯
As others said - the long travel hardtail is pretty much a UK thing, the yanks and euros just go for full suspension on anything other than an XC race bike.
Also remember that in europe most riders would be classed as XC racers over here where we tend to be a bit more brutal on kit, so a UK hardtail with 100mm forks is very different to a european one. Compare the Sanderson life or O-O inbred, with a Cube or Scott.
I once had a conversation with Keith Bontrager about disc brakes. He said that he thought they were pretty pointless on most mountain bikes until he actually came to the UK and rode.
he no longer thinks that.
it may appear like marketing, but in the late 90's myself all the guys i rode with were on larger sized Chameleons, DS-1s and similar bikes with 110mm bombers, big tyres and short stems, ride xc with the saddle up and dh / jumps with the saddle down. Cotic made the Soul around that time, Dialled made some cool bikes, Pastey and a few others appeared, the 456 and other UK LT HT bikes got popular.
seems like that approach has filtered through to today's 'UK-mainstream' production bikes. It's definately rider-driven at the brands that do it well, as brands that 'cynically' claim to be designed for the UK often miss the sublter stuff like the more trail-ready handling traits or screw up the balance of burly vs xc.
no real logic to it, just comes down to a rider's attitude or reason for riding, culturally a lot of things vary across the world including what / why we like to ride.
the long travel hardtail is pretty much a UK thing
Except for the Spooky Metalhead, Cove Stiffee, SC Chameleon, Banshee Scirocco...
I think of the tag "UK Specific" as being an indicator that something's a good all-rounder - not too burly or too fragile, with decent geometry for riding up, down and along most of the terrain you get in the UK.
MrMW - I assume that comment is due to mud riding?
Well I have not read a lot, but the mud clearance is balls... See someone from lets say BC in canada is probably going to have ride as muddier as someone in the UK. But for example the bike will have different geometries (take an HJ and compare it to a inbred) and different mud clearance. Then you can't really compare UK and EU. Actually that's ball you can. Riding all over UK is going to be different (al can probably teach 90% of the english forum users how to ride) same is riding in France, someone from brittany is going to cry out loud going up and down where I live...
Probably the same as motorcycles, as our climate lets you ride all year around. Whereas most countries are either a lot warmer (and no issue) or a lot colder and consequently bikes are only used 6(ish) months of the year.
Global warming though is having an impact, as friends in Germany now insure and tax their bikes for a full year, whereas 10 years ago it was more likely just for 6 months.
Rock Shox forks seem very lacking in mud-room, compared to Fox and Magura?
I think it makes a lot of sense. I've ridden with a lot of German riders over the years in the Canaries and their bikes tend usually to be flat barred short travel racy HT's and they seem to eye UK bikes and styles with some curiosity. There definately seems to be a different riding ethos between most of the UK riders that I know and the German guys that I know and this is obvious by their bikes. Added to this is the biking heritage of things coming out of California where the climate is about as opposite to here as it can get. It's taken a while for things to move away from that Cali-centric way of thinking.
I've first hand experience of 'Mericans "just not getting" the whole LT HT thing, those bikes that Mr Agreeable mentions notwithstanding (they are very niche) they seem to think in terms of either 'very' full suss or race bikes
Last ride I went on was muddy, my P7 had miles of space between the tyre and frame for mud to pass through. My mate on a nice new 575 had mud clogging the rear wheel and dragging - claim it to be marketing all you like I think there was a real difference in the thought process when designing the frames 🙂
See someone from lets say BC in canada is probably going to have ride as muddier as someone in the UK.
Nope, despite the rain, there's not much mud around here. The soil level simply isn't deep enough to get muddy.
I think one important point has been missed - In Europe they don't get the 'steel hardtail' thing either (Ask Juan) or singlespeeds. I Europe I believe we're pretty much alone in that. I might be wrong, but name a Euro bike that's made out of steel, not alloy........
BR makes the important point. Most of the yanks, canucks, etc who live in the mountains only ride for 6 months of the year. The rest of the time they're under snow. So they don't get that endless winter slop & sludge that simply kills bike componentry.
Sunn make a nice steel HT, but yeah the Europeans tend to see steel as simply 'too heavy' - that's another difference i see, less UK riders go for really light kit whereas Tune parts in Germany are a classic Euro lightweight-to-extremes brand that you rarely see here.
A couple of years ago I took a few of my work staff (all cyclists of various forms) to Afan, one lad, a German intern was a very fit and competent rider.
We borrowed a bike for him. On the Wall he was up the fire-roads like a whippet and then proceeded to run up anything steepish. When at the top and facing the downs he was gobsmacked when we lowered seats and aimed for big gears. He couldn't beleive that we were going to ride down singletrack...
He really enjoyed it though, and said how different it was from the usual German enduro/races/rides he'd been on.
I might be wrong, but name a Euro bike that's made out of steel, not alloy........
Scapin, although the Nope also goes some way to support the other statements on here, by being more of the XC race persuasion.
My experience of the continental riders I know is that they have a similar mindset to most UK roadies - if they are on a bike they are either riding an event or training for riding an event. A lot of UK mtb riders ride bikes just to ride bikes with no longer term motive - ultimate speed from a to b is not the driving factor. Also, and I'm going to get myself a slagging for this one, uk mtbs are more "comfortably shaped" in comparison to our euro cousins who look and behave more like roadies in body composition. UK mtbers seem (on average) to be a lot less fit, so consequentially get our kicks in different ways - mostly gravity assisted.
- the long travel hardtail is pretty much a UK thing, the yanks and euros just go for full suspension on anything other than an XC race bike
Perhaps I am American or European then as I just don't get long travel hardtails
My UK designed bike designed for the Alps works very well in Sweden. The mud dries up quickly here. Most of the other bikes I see are either very XC racer type ones or very big downhill bikes at the nearest lift assisted trails.
So, we've got 2 Euro bikes made out of steel, one of which I've never heard of. I think I was about right then 🙂
We borrowed a bike for him. On the Wall he was up the fire-roads like a whippet and then proceeded to run up anything steepish. When at the top and facing the downs he was gobsmacked when we lowered seats and aimed for big gears. He couldn't beleive that we were going to ride down singletrack...
That must be why Magura make such good brakes then? 😉
I'd love to hear more about this mindset though....
I'd love to hear more about this mindset though....
Living in holland confronted me also with this phenomenon.
The majority of bikes sold here are aluminium xc race HT's with 80 or 100mm forks, with 100mm concerned as LT. Weight weenying is still the rage and bars and tyres have to be narrow and skinny. As for trail gnarlyness, they closed the only 2 foot drop in our local track for being to high and a potential risk. Health and safety at it's best. 😉
We've been given an odd look or two when we turned up for a ride with 160mm forks, wide risers, big tyres and sporting baggies.
As far as I can see it boils down to UK's XC is now Euro's freeride. 😉
So, fat boy taunting aside, there's some kind of ideological difference in where we get our riding kicks?
It means the slot on the seat tube faces forwards rather than backwards.
'designed for uk' = 'designed for trail centres' imo
reckon it'll all be about bikes designed for the far east in a few years time... 😉
It's all marketing. Bearing quality and seals are needed in every place you ride; no exceptions. There is also some a belief by many UK riders that the UK is unique in terms of its terrain and riding conditions, its not.
The UK's love of the HT is frankly bemusing, the rest of globe moved with the times and materials and so uses full sus unless you race XC, dirt jump or 4X. Infact most of the globe don't buy steel either. Frankly I have no idea why the LT HT is popular in the UK they don't make any logical since to me, but I spent must of my formative riding years in North America.
dirtynap, that suggests it is cultural as much as anything. i agree our terrain isn't any different, but as riders we don't look for the easiest or fastest way, more the most fun way. it really isn't just marketing, if it was marketing companies could make good bikes?
Designed for the uk = fits the wisdom of UK forums
I also wonder if compared to America we on average earn less and pay more for our bikes
I don't think the phrase designed for the UK has no meaning. Mud is more of an issue here than any where else I have ridden
Perhaps its also our lack of uplift. We require do it all bikes
from my own experience, i've ridden long travel full susses, short travel, hardtail, rigid. i always see having suspension out back as not that much of a bonus. it's just when i ride really fast places like southern spain or the alps that i wish i had a different bike - i'm on a hardtail now and all i'd change is the forks to be longer - it's not the rear of the bike that makes it difficult - it's the 100mm forks i currently run!
Designed for the UK = Considerably more expensive that it should be.
i suppose to elaborate on my post - yes, i've become culturally biased towards a certain kind of bike. and that's probably from marketing. heh, so what! i haven't actually got a LT-HT 😛
I have recently built up a Dialled Bikes Alpine for riding around my local forest in Sweden and I am having great fun with it. I have a prophet as well but the Alpine is much more fun. The trails are rocky, rooty, and the woods are full of short steep climbs and descents. And loads of "skåne Shore", here instead of stiles they use 2-3foot steep ramps and to get across bogs they use raised wooden walk ways that range from 20 to 40 cm wide. It was a fun learning curve and I have fallen in the soup on a number of occassions.
The funny thing is that the forest is in 2 parts. The southern bit is flatter with wide fire roads and smooth single track and the north is as I have described above. And guess where the Sweeds like riding? The south on their very racy XC bikes. They also thought my Prince Albert DB was a freeride bike so I am not sure what they will think of my Alpine? There are also some small DH trails that are perfectly doable on a hardtail but there I have had some riders look on with some puzzlement as I did them on a hardtail.
And thinking about it when I started doing mountain biking 20 years ago I was riding around the Cheviots and it was the trail centers that made me realise that you could go over big drops and dead technical stuff as trail centers are pretty safe and good for building confidence and basic skills so maybe your right about British bikes and trail centres but in the wrong way. Trail centres just helped more people see what was possible.
Riding can't be that different in other parts of the planet can it?
HAHAHA!
As above. Compare say the Rockies to the South Downs to Finland to Lanzarote.... Some places are dry all summer then it snows all winter - so mud isn't as much of an issue. Some places are just dry all year and if it rains they call the ride off (California). Some places the hills are just so big that hardly anyone rides up them, they just use ski lifts. Some people (UK included) treat mtbing like skiing - a couple of weeks a year then the bike gets hung up. I once rode in Oregon, the ride consisted of a hell of a long fire-road climb followed by an insanely arse-ou steep and long bit of punishing bit of single track. I'm talking a couple of miles of it, not just a 60 second segment. No way would you have enjoyed that on some niche tastic 29er SS with mary bars and whatnot 🙂
Riding varies absolutely massively all over the place. I'd say a UK bike has to have good clearance and a forward facing seat tube slot. Other than that, I'd say *typical* UK riders prefer mid travel FS or LT HT, and the most ridden trails now reflect that.
It's all about the differences in riding culture I think - and they are quite significant as above.
A lot of early USA design FS bikes may have worked great in sunny California but due to the use of bushes rather than bearings they weren't up to a winter of UK abuse, GT LTS springs to mind. Had the Specialised designers ever heard of mud when they designed a bike and put the shock directly in the firing line of the rear wheel?
I've not read all that, so sorry if this has been said, but there's a definite UK style when it comes to hardtails. The other European countries don't seem to get the fun idea of 5 inch forks on a hardtail and I think that's pretty much the same for most of the Uh-mer'cans too.
Hmmmm we nicked the long travel hardtail idea from Canadia didn't we?
my first hartail was a 65mm fork on a bike designed for 0mm, so I think my own LT tendencies developed from there.
Hmmmm we nicked the long travel hardtail idea from Canadia didn't we?
Aye, us and the Canucks. No one else gets it.
Does Designed For The UK really mean designed for trail centres? When I have ridden trail centres the majority of riders I have seen are on 5 inch full sussers. But that is a different debate.
Santa Cruz County in Califormia gets an average of 770mm rainfall per year, and Marin County even more... considerably more rain than we get here in East Sussex. Yes, temperatures are higher in the summer months so the ground will dry out quicker, but I don't believe their bikes are designed with desert riding in mind as some would suggest.
'Designed for UK' is part to do with trail-centre friendly geometry / crud-catcher bolts etc, and part marketing in my opinion. Nothing more.
When I have ridden trail centres the majority of riders I have seen are on 5 inch full sussers
Does that mean that they ONLY ride trail centres with that bike?
Or should they buy another so that some forum jockey doesn't think they're losers?
If you only have one bike and live in say the Peaks or ride all over, a 5" FS seems a very reasonable choice.
Who said anything about being a loser molgrips? I simply said that people on here are talking about long travel hardtails being designed for trail centres but I don't see that many of them at these places.
Most people go on about 5" FS at trail centres in a rather disparaging tone, so please accept my apologies for makign the same assumption again.
'Designed for UK' is part to do with trail-centre friendly geometry
trail center and natural trail geometry are one and the same tho, right? you can ride either on a steep 100mm xc race bike, or on an alpine-style 150mm fork hardtail, but UK Style to me means the balance between the two, the accepting of a slower climber / slacker feel for dh/technical trail-biased handling. that all started here and in canada in the mid-late 90's when 100mm was long travel. sounds like an advert tag, and a cheesy one at that, but it's more of an attitude toward riding than a spec of a bike, that attitude then influences bike spec and frame angles at most UK bike brands.
Good point James, I stand corrected...
... all marketing then 😉
Commcencal UK spec meta's used to just have better sealed bearings, and a reveresed slot; I think.
By the way there is mud in the US and lots of it, head the north west or east and there is lots of sticky mud, and lots of rain. They get the full four seasons unlike here where we now get two weeks of snow, two weeks of sun and the rest is grey and overcast drizzly rubbish.
There is mud in some parts of the US, but not in others. In Wisconsin for example they put their bikes away all winter and do something else.
In Wisconsin summer and other parts of the world the annual rainfall may be comparable to the UK but in the summer it tends to come in very heavy summer storms punctuating long periods of hot sunshine. So not much actual riding in mud....
hehe fair enough.. for some yes i guess so!
maybe i'm biting on this thread as genesis used the whole designed for the uk tag at first, but we decided not to make a big thing of it atfter the first year as it's not easy to explain, you either get it or not, or it's obvious for those that care and matters not for those that dont! )
interesting to see how people perceive it all though.
The only things I have seen with "designed for the UK" have been hardtails with big forks.
It's all marketing guff.
Anyway, some yanks do get the big forked hardtail thing as well, but they are generally in the Pacific northwest or in New England. Which makes them almost Canadian.
Having ridden all around Europe on a Dialled Prince Albert with marz Z1s there does seem to be a different interpretation of Mountain Biking and what would be deemed to be a good ride.
Case in point in Lake Garda you had to make sure that you explained to anyone recommending routes that you weren't German/Italian and that you liked a bit of Tech.
I think the Euros tend to treat XC and DH almost as separate sports and don't get you can combine the 2 in one ride.
[i]Does Designed For The UK really mean designed for trail centres?[/i]
Could someone explain what this means?
How do you design a bike for use at a trail centre?
How do you design a bike for use at a trail centre?
You make it so it looks nice infront of the Dropoff Cafe/Hub at Glentress.
i reckon a trail centre bike is something like the kind of bike that MBR love - a 130-140mm travel, slack angled FS bike with 60mm stem and 700m+ bars. basically a short travel / smoother-surface DH-handling bike that pedals with the saddle up. not dsigned for trail centres specifically, but perfect for riding them. well assuming that trail centre means lots of realtively smooth, bermy, roller-compression bits etc. or whatever you call those nice floaty roller sections. so stick a larsen TT on the back and a minion up front on a 5 or old meta and youre there?
Dirtynap - Meta 5 UK meant that it came with Shimano kit rather than SRAM like the rest of the models did and it was exclusive to the UK market. This is now the Meta Limited.
They have plenty of "designed in Sweden" bikes here. What is wrong with saying you have designed the bike for a specific market? Not mountain bikes but these bikes are really popular in Sweden but would not be so popular in the UK. (As everybody wants long travel hardtails 🙂 )
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'Designed for the UK'
= rainproof and to be used in the cold.
if there are people /countries /magasines out there who don't understand the point of bikes like the DB Prince Albert, Cotic Soul, Ragley blue pig, on-one 456, Genesis Altitude, etc. then it's their loss.
the kind of cheeky 'badger-tech' trails that these bikes are at home on are just another riding niche. i'm not sure i really understand what 'slopestyle' means, but i bet it makes sense to a lot of people.
it really [i]is[/i] all just cycling, and it's all ace. I don't have any chairlifts or slopestyle parks where i live, i don't race xc, but i do have lots and lots of lovely technical singletrack and a skinny steel frame with 5" forks is just about perfect. Stiffer frames and shorter forks mean a harsher ride, sore wrists and ankles = less fun. Full-bounce bikes are more comfortable and offer more grip, but i'm not sure that means [i]more[/i] fun.
'uk specific' - ok, if that's what we're calling this particular niche...
Part Marketing, part not marketing innit. As stated before the Longer Travel HT's with slacker geometry and crud mounts, mud clearance in quite specific to UK and Canada in terms of market share of bikes sold.
Also folk like to feel special don't they, there is quite a different cycling (in particular MTB riding)culture in the UK (you only have to look at the mags available in other countries to support this view) So marketing is always going to be more effective if you go with the existing trends and reinforce an existing ideology. Why would folk selling frames, bikes etc make the suggestion that a bike 'designed for Germany' would be better than one for where the majority of the intended market is actually going to use the bike - they arn't are they. Also we have existing stereotypes of other places and the riding that they do, it would be daft for marketers to try and second guess that to exploit it.
Are you going to be swayed towards buying a car that was marketed as 'designed for the US', probably not as if like me you have never driven there (or ridden there for that matter)so i'm putting my faith in those selling me the car or bike that they've made that it's the most suitable option for my intended use.
If you are not swayed by this sort of marketing, well kudos to you Jedi of all that is bikes and bike marketing, now tuck back into your tube of pringles and get back to your IT job, or go buff your mary bars.
Short memories? Or am I just old? I remember fitting 1.8" rear tyres in the winter in the hope that the wheel will still go round. That was Herefordshire though...
I just remembered that was on UK designed and built bikes, so doesn't really help clarify this "UK designed" thing at all, does it? = ;87)
Next time you are at Mountain Mayhem and it's muddy, sit trackside and watch the people passing by. The bikes where wheels no longer even turn that are being dragged through the mud by wretched souls are Santa Cruzes mostly, and some Specialised. The ones that are actually being ridden tend to be Orange 5s 🙂
Uk riders like do it all bikes as compared to most other places we have a lot of different terrain crammed into a very small area. I went riding with some Americans years ago and they were amazed at the different stuff they could ride in the course of a day. I would predict that the largest amount of "do it all" tyres are sold in the UK market due to terrain and weather conditions. The mud clearance thing is part of the issue, look at the difference in bikes designed on the east and west coasts of the US. Plus, we are Brits and probably just like to be different and quirky. More power to the LT HT.
I am so laughing out loud at some of the comment about riding in the UK and riding in the EU.
If I was to trust this forum, it would mean riding in the UK (and that would mean that doing the devil staircase in scotland being the same ride as pootling around QEII park) is so much gnar than riding in the EU because people in the EU only ride XC.
Now that's amazing. I think some of the people on here should spend more time on geographic dedicated forums. You can't compare UK riding with EU or US riding the same way you can't compare riding in sussex and riding in cumbria.
My do it all bike in the UK was a HJ single speed. Beore that I had a hoss too (people where all very surprised I rode at MM with it). But the former was more suited to my riding.
Now I am back at home and the SS is useless, so I put gear on. Then I only uses it when I ride with the GF or I do some not rocky rides (or rides that involves 45 minutes of bike carriage).
I am now going to make a STW like sweeping generalisation if you'll allow me, my EU XC bike:
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Most of people will buy a bike that is suited for their local riding. And as said before, LT HT were a canadian stuff way before it came in the UK. As for commencal having two version of the frame one for the UK on for the rest of the world, yeah right...
Peter, google for sobre 😉 it's some nichastic french stuff.
Marketing and fashion, isn't it. Lets see, why do you need a 140mm travel hardtail for UK conditions? Slack angles, are nice in some areas, but lets face it, when on-one produced a frame designed around slack angles and a 100mm fork, what happened? People went out and slapped a 120-140mm fork on it. Fashion.
Most stuff in trail centres, and outside of them, is perfectly rideable, and enjoyable, on a 100mm hardtail, but an LT hardtail looks hard- it's the poseurs equivalent of having an RS4 instead of an A4. They both do the same job, but one takes less skill to use than the other.
why do you need a 140mm travel hardtail for UK conditions?
because it's fun ?
^^^ yes it can be fun, but so is a full sus and your ass and back hurt less at the end of day.
Why punish your body more than you have to?