Subscribe now and choose from over 30 free gifts worth up to £49 - Plus get £25 to spend in our shop
Just going back to the fork/rear damper issue I think there have been some excellent points made. Forks have a more important job to do because they control the wheel that does the majority of the steering (maybe that's not true; maybe steering on a bike is not done by any one wheel?) However, they also have an easier time of it because they have a 1:1 actuation ratio. That makes the job of damping a lot easier to manage (less heat build up, slower shaft speed, far more oil volume available for the process etc). It's also why air sprung forks can be made to work so much better relative to coil sprung versus rear dampers.
Yeah, I spoke with them a month or two ago and they said they would.
Cheers for that. Did you see any user comparisons between the MX Tune and a normal Pushed Van R?
I expect the latter would more than meet my needs to be honest.
Not sure about BIGMAN's comment about servicing. Stendec is listed as the UK service agent on CC's website and as far as I'm aware they are perfectly capable of servicing it. Why shouldn't I trust Stendec??
Haha.
Do a little research on them, and it should reveal all. I'm sure there is some pictures floating around somewhere from when they used to look after Curnutts too.
Put it this way, i've never seen tin foil used in a shock before 😉
Mickey Mouse just about sums it up.
Stendec Equals COWBOYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
sorry if this point has already been made, but it seems that a good number of folk have gone from an air shock to a high end coil and been amazed by the performance. A coil is always going to be better, I wonder if the average rider had got a dhx coil he would have still been blown away by the difference in performance at a fraction of the price. My dhx 5 for my pitch set me back £160 new.
BIGMAN I am sure you had your problems with Stendec, but to be fair to him (not them), Dave Garland the one man band who is Stendec, has helped me out many times. Not just with servicing work, but also with odd queries I have asked him about old shocks snd forks I have been tinkering with. I have been there many times, as I only live 15 mins away from him, and have spent as little as nothing (he has given me bits for nought) or as much as £550 on a CCDB. Each time he has been more than helpful and friendly. While there, I have seen all makes of shock being worked on, including BOS Stoy & Avalanche, as well as Works bikes from the Chainreaction Team & other works riders shocks/forks. He has an amazing amount of knowledge about all aspects of mtb suspension, much of it gained from working over the last 10+ years at the highest level in downhill racing. I am sure he has made mistakes like many of us, but a cowboy he aint.
geetee1972...your fork will have a far higher shaft speed than your shock, as it works on 1:1 ratio 😉
Fivespot.........
If it was a one off occurance I would agree but I am not the only person that has had a bad experience with him...
As sited earleir ask people who had there Curnutts sorted there what they thought to his work...
Do some searches espescially on descent world and see what comes up!
Final thing and I am done!!!
If his work is so good why are Cane Creek trying to find a new UK service centre at the moment????
Small bump compliance, big hit
Where were the small bumps and big hits at Llandegla then? 😛
BIGMAN
I've just searched Stendec on Decent World and it hasn't brought anything up?
How do you know CC are looking for a new service agent?
Not that I have any preference for Stendec other than that's where I bought my DB but I will want to get it serviced at some point.
http://www.southerndownhill.com/forum/index.php/topic,132305.0.html
One of many threads.. The one on DW appears to have been deleted!
As for looking for alternative options for a service centre! Thats what I was told by Cane Creek when they rebuilt my shock after Stendec ruined it!
Those saying "who cares about weight"- lighter bikes are faster. I'd say it makes more of a difference than a fancy shock. It also makes it easier and more pleasurable to ride your bike. More than a fancy shock.
I know it makes a difference- I remember shocks just 6 years ago, they were crap, but they're much ebtter now.
To me it's not about how fast good kit makes me, far from it in fact 🙂
geetee1972...your fork will have a far higher shaft speed than your shock, as it works on 1:1 ratio
Er yes of course, that's entirely what I meant.
....shuffles off peevishly.
Sorry to drag this up again and to hijack it a bit, but was wondering is it worth upgrading the rear shock on my 09 Orange 5 or to think sod it and get a Mojo HD when they come out.
I do like my 5 a lot but would also like a bit more travel, or would the 5 be better, i.e handle more like a bike with nore travel if it had a coil shock that controlled the back end better?????
mr50 - yes it will make a positive difference (set up properly), i've upgraded a 2008 patriot from the manitou evolver 4 shock (which i liked) to a cheapo vivid coil crc was selling earlier this year and it made a massive change
staying on topic - what are the typical prices for these high performing coil shocks then?
Pushed Van R is £250
Bos Stoy is £608
Elka Stage 5?
Avalanche Chubie?
CCDB? guessing £600-ish
i'd like to try push mx-tuned van r on an orange five but it still appears to be a long time until push gets the parts...
i bought a vanilla RC for £60 from ebay to replace the manitou swinger on my five.
90% of the performance of a CCDB at 10% of the cost.
Sorry, but a stock Vanilla RC will not be close to 90% of the CCDB performance. If you send it to push and have it tuned for your frame and weight then it might get close.
I would say 80\20 performance wise. Everything aligns to the 80\20 rule.
On a DH bike the performance gain of a high end shock I would guess would be more applicable than a trail bike! I'll happily spend a lot more on the suspension on my DH bike than I will on my XC bike...
I just do not need the level of grip a high end shock would give me on my trail bike!!! Maybe for endurance DH racing but thats the only time I can see it been needed!!!
I just do not need the level of grip a high end shock would give me on my trail bike!!! Maybe for endurance DH racing but thats the only time I can see it been needed!!!
We're back to that perenial 'need versus want' argument. No one needs a full suss bike, but then no one needs a mountain bike full stop. It's something we do because we 'want' to. If you don't need or want more grip from your trail bike then that's completely fine and right for you. Personally I regularly get to the limit of grip on mine and so having the extra performance is something I want in order that I can go faster. I can't say that I 'need' it in an absolute sense, but if I say 'In order to enjoy myself to the maximum I want to go faster and currently my damper is holding that back' then yes I 'need' a better damper.
Sorry, but a stock Vanilla RC will not be close to 90% of the CCDB performance. If you send it to push and have it tuned for your frame and weight then it might get close.
in your opinion, unfortunately i'm not prepared to spend another £540 to find out, even without riding one I can be sure its not that much better...
Jambo - I have spent the money and I have ridden both and I can happily say that I can feel an enormous difference between the two. However, the word 'enormous' is entirely subjective; for many people the difference may only slight or subtle. FWIW the FoxVan R is still a bloody good damper.
The CCDB can be had for less than £500 [url= http://www.freeborn.co.uk/cane-creek-double-barrel-rear-shock ]CCDB for £481[/url] and the RRP is actually around £535, not £600+ as has been suggested.
this is an older van RC, widely thought of as one of the best coil shocks that Fox ever did.
if I had that much money burning a hole in my pocket I'd upgrade the forks first.
Gravity sports also doing CCDB at sensible ish money. Richard at Gravity is also a top guy!
[url] http://www.gravity-sports.co.uk/forks-and-shocks/40-cane-creek-double-barrel-shock-ccdb-.html [/url]
in your opinion, unfortunately i'm not prepared to spend another £540 to find out, even without riding one I can be sure its not that much better...
No, at this point it's hardly just up to opinion. I'm not saying it's a bad shock, I had one my self some years back and quite liked it.
Posionspider - you talked about a Ccdb on your Orange Five and about the usual better traction , big hit etc etc but you also talked about lack of pedel bob.
Its the lack of pedel bob i'm interested in. Just would like to know what spring weight you are running for your weight?
Also what compression and rebound setting your running as it would seem that you are not running 'stock' settings. As in 'stock' the shock feels amazingly compliant over rocks and very very good on the Dhs. But due to the single pivot of the Five does bob quite a lot while climbing in the saddle.
Interested to here your settings for the shock on the Orange Five.
Cheers
Oranges are one frame you will feel the CC on most! Due to the Orange having a heavily falling rate through its stroke it is possible to tune that out using the HSC adjuster on the shock... Typically on an Orange starting mid way.. 2 full turns of HSC is a good starting point along with 2 full revolutions or HRS...
Then tune in the ride using the LSC, LSR...........
Pushed Van R is £250
Bos Stoy is £608
Elka Stage 5?
CCDB? guessing £600-ish
Avalanche Chubie is US$600 (~£390) with ind. hi/low adjusters. Pretty good for a completely custom tuned shock when compared to the others. Just doesn't have the colour anodised bling-ness appeal I think.
Silverfish say the Elka Stage 5 RRP is £419 (and suggest that's) plus £49 for a steel spring , [and mounting kit for £20-25]..
so Elka 5 stage £468 (they all need mounting kits)
Its the lack of pedel bob i'm interested in. Just would like to know what spring weight you are running for your weight?Also what compression and rebound setting your running as it would seem that you are not running 'stock' settings. As in 'stock' the shock feels amazingly compliant over rocks and very very good on the Dhs. But due to the single pivot of the Five does bob quite a lot while climbing in the saddle.
Rik - I don't ride an Orange Five but I can help with this point. The spring shouldn't make any difference to the amount of pedal induced bob you get. Of course if you run a spring that is twice the rate it should be then sure, the swing arm isn't going to move much under pedaling, but then it wouldn't under any kind of force.
It's the low speed compression that allows you to tune out pedal induced bob without sacrificing small bump compliance and therefore grip. Small bumps should still open up the shock and be absorbed because although small, the speed they cause the shaft to move at is high, thus they open up the high speed compression circuits. The low speed circuits are not affected and therefore the bike can magically seem to pedal very well but still be super compliant and supple over even the smallest ripples.
This is what I have experienced on my bike with the CCDB and it's almost certainly what SPider is referencing with his Orange Five.
Thanks for the advice and a very interesting thread
I understand the basics of the CCDB shock and what affect each of the hi and low compression and rebound adjustments will do. I also think that the CCDB manual is an essential read to anyone who is interested in rear suspension esp. if they have only ever used air shocks.
I have made the choice to run the shock in ‘stock form’ for at least 6-8 weeks to be able to appreciate its characteristics over the old shock. So far I have been amazed at how plush the shock is and how active it is in comparison to the air shock of old. It does make a huge difference.
The pedal bob is something I have found to be very noticeably in and out of the saddle, and if I am able to get rid completely or at least reduce it considerably without effecting its small bump compliance then the shock is even more a thing of wonder.
BIGMAN - Are the two turn adjustments that you talk of from midway, I presume you mean the ‘stock’ setting?? Its something I will certainly try in a few weeks.
Thanks
Rik, sorry mate certainly didn't mean to patronise you. I did the same thing, riding in stock form for a few weeks. When I got round to adjusting the LSC I realised that actually what it does is pretty noticeable and that within a few metres of riding, I knew whether I had enough or too much. So my suggestion is to just dial in a few more clicks of LSC and see what happens next time you ride.
The rebound adjustments are harder to 'feel'
geetee1972 - not at all mate, didnt think that at all.
Looking forward to having a play with the LSC - from what it seems i should be able to have the best of both worlds
BTW, somebody might be interesting in what Tim Flooks said about the CCDB when I asked him what his thoughts where. He thought it was an amazing shock when set up properly, but he said that 90% of the times he's looked at one people have set it up incorrectly so he would not believe they are getting a good ride out of it.
Personally I was never one to like spending ages tuning suspension which is also one of the major reasons I did not take the CCDB upgrade with the frame I'll be receiving shortly.
What I mean by this, is that without external help I might actually end up getting better performance out of a custom tuned simple shock like a pushed Van R then a top end bells and whistles shock that I can mess things up with.
BIGMAN - Thinking about your suggestions above, that seems quite a big shift in the compression and rebound settings. What effect are you going for with that adjustment??
I might actually end up getting better performance out of a custom tuned simple shock like a pushed Van R then a top end bells and whistles shock that I can mess things up with.
Exactly what I'm thinking. I hate tinkering with settings so usually don't bother.
Much more sensible to have something which is set up right for most of my riding and optimised for my bike - without the facilty for me to mess it up.
Sounds like the CCDB is one for the proper bike geeks.
Rik the settings are from fully wound off. Anti clockwise.
On a Five to sort the falling rate on an Orange you need more HSC to stop the shock blowing through its travel. You need to run more HSC on the Orange than you would say an Intense where the linkage is massively rising rate and it would need minimal to no HSC...
The CRC team bikes have zero HSC on all of there bikes that were equipped with CC units last year. M6, 5.5 and SS....
The 2 full revolutions on HSR gives you a good base for a nice controlled return for big hits...
Base settings for one frame wont work for another as all are different. You have to look at how the rate will effect the shock and then set accordingly..
You need to run more HSC on the Orange than you would say an Intense where the linkage is massively rising rate and it would need minimal to no HSC...
Actually the SS 2, Uzzi and 951 are very different from the M6 in this regard. The M6 is very linear while the others have a very rising rate. Somebody graphed this at mtbr and mr. Intense (Jeff) commented on the thread and confirmed it.
edit:
Found the thread (you need to be logged in to see the graphs): http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=554013
The quote from Jeff:
You guys are pretty much on track here. The 951 is almost opposite the M6 in personality.
It started out as the new Socom redesign project but turned into a whole new thing and filled the request from our pro racers for a more tight coarse bike.
The linkage was designed to yeild more spring energy to make it snappier & quicker out of the turns. Having the ramp up gives you some platform to push against, inturn the951 will bunny hop , launch jumps, skip over woops etc. better as the M6 follows the terrain better.
It is a smooth linier ramp up and that is why it works well & yes it is hard to bottom it.
The 951 is very plush in the begining and well into the usable travel and so it tracks great also.
In the end we really liked the feel or personality of the 951 and felt this met the need and offered something different.
If you see i wrote LAST YEARS bikes...
If you look last season they hardly used 951's! I don't think I saw Matt ever ride a 951 he was always on an M6!
The linkage on the M6 is rising rate though he does not dispute that.. I think you'll find that the 951 was built to ramp up a lot quicker and is a definate example of a new VPP bike which would require zero HSC on a CC...
any ideas on how it'd work with a FSR/Horst link frame? I don't know much about 'rising/falling rates' etc, guess I'd have to learn quickly though 😉
Hope this is correct:
Rising rate is the same as progressive rate and means that as the suspension moves through its travel, progressively more force is needed at the wheel to compress the suspension, i.e. the suspension 'ramps up' or gets harder to compress. This also translates to 'resists bottoming out'.
Falling rate is the same as digressive rate and is simply the reverse of the above. The force needed to compress the shock the same amount is less at the end of the travel than it is at the begining, i.e. the bigger the impact the more likely you are to bottom out the suspension.
The leverage ratio indicates which of the above is happening so for example moving from a leverage ratio of 3:1 (three inches of wheel movement to one inch of shock movement) to 2:1 is an example of progressive or rising rate and vice versa.
BIGMAN is indicating that the Five has a digressive or falling rate (the graphs on the Linkage Software you can get over the internet confirm this.) This means you do indeed need more HSC on a linear coil in order to resist bottom out. It might be like this however because it was designed to run an air spring, which is inherently rising rate itself (this is independent of the suspension leverage).
Psychie, aren't you riding a Helius AM? The Linkage software shows that the AM has an initial falling rate for the first 40mm or so, making it very supple in the initial part of the travel, but after that, it become quite sharply rising rate. The rate of change is much more pronounced that that of the Orange Five (although don't forget they are going the opposite way).
To illustrate, the Five's leverage ratio starts off at 2.8:1 and finishes at 2.9:1. The Helius starts at 3.3:1 and finishes at around 2.5:1
If you are on an AM, that would mean you need to dial off far more HSC and on the Five, as BIGMAN says, you need to add it.
And by the way, the CCDB works very well on the AM.
Nope, I'm riding an Enduro SL. Thanks for the reply, what is this linkage sofware you speak of? Helius AM is a FSR/horst link setup right? So it should be similar to the Enduro?
It is the same suspension design yes - Karl Nicolai started his career with AMP Research where the Horst Link was initially designed. I think he worked on that project hence why he uses it himself.
However this doesn't mean that the suspension will have the same characteritics. On this linkage software the Enduro 2007 is shown as having a progressive rate for the first 100mm of travel and then digressive for the final 50mm.
I don't know if this is 100% true, but that would seem to make sense when used with an air shock, as the digressive rate would counter the progressive rate of the air spring.
The Linkage software can be found here:
[url= http://www.bikechecker.com/demo.phtml ]Linkage Demo[/url]
Once installed choose ctrl O to open files and then choose 'Search Web Library'. There you will find files on many different bikes and models uploaded by various people.
I have just listed my mint 200x57 CCDB (2010 Version)on the classifieds if anybody is after one 😉
My new frame requires a 215x63 😥
fivespot you do realise you can post them back to Cane Creek and get the lenght/stroke changed...
Its a chargable service but still miles cheaper than buying new.
Bigman, yes mate I do realise. Based on my selling price and the cost of rebuilding with parts to suit my new frame, I think it would work out about the same. Plus, if I bought a new shock it would come with the correct length steel spring included, whereas if I altered my existing shock, I would have to fork out for a spring as well 😕
Ah cool... I did not think it was a huge amount of money to get it done as I was in a similar predicamemt at the start of the year until i decided to flog mine also!