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My bike still has the same 5" travel, it just works better 🙂 so to make trails more fun you prefer parts that don't work as well as they should?
I prefer a bike with a front bias for grip for riding xc. DH bike is different.
A fork is a tranferable upgrade should you change your frame, an upgraded shock probably won't be due to different eye to eye / stroke etc. That's probably why it's not considered as much IMO even if it is logical.
Get your point though, now is there a CCDB for a 2006 Enduro? 🙂
The CCDB is the best shock out there and if you have the money then there is no reason not to get one, end of discussion.
If you can't really afford one then get an RC4.
I would disagree with the previous statement... The Stoy and the CCDB are probably of the same standard. The BOS Stoy though is a mich smoother shock...
It also comes valved for each bike unlike the CCDB! So for most people who can not get there head around HS and LS adjusters its probably a more useable unit!!
I am waiting for an Elka to arrive at the moment and am keen to see how it compares with the other 2 units. Like the BOS the Elka is valved for specific frames.
Reviews coming in from Canada are showing good performance comparable to a CCDb and Stoy for a lower price....
I agree, it's hard to say the CCDB is the best out there, however, shocks like the Elka and Stoy require that you know what you want from your shock when you order it, once it is set it is more difficult (though not impossible) to change the settings, unlike the CCDB. So even though the CCDB may seem confusing, once you start to use it and understand the principals of each setting it can be easier to tune to your preferences on the fly.
I really want to get my hands on an Elka, once i understand a little more about what my frame and my riding style likes.
Yep am also running a CCDB:
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This bike weighs in at 30.5lbs and switching to an RP23 would save around 400g. It might be worthwhile but I doubt it. The performance of the CCDB is just too good.
Si - your comments mirror my experience, which is that there is a true separation of high and low speed compression. I've always found on most air dampers, that the low speed compression works to inhibit the movement of the initial part of the shock stroke. This then gives a firm platform that reduces pedal/rider induced bob, but it also inhibits compliance over smaller hits and therefore reduces grip.
With the CCDB, I have probably about 50% of the LSC wound on; the bike is super stable, has zereo bob and can be pumped through the trail no problem. But even over the smallest of bumps, which shoud still be 'high speed' compression events, the the damper responds and gives amazing levels of grip.
The point about the CCDB not being custom shimmed is true but it's beccause it doesn't need it. The range of adjustment is so large that it doesn't need to be custom shimmed.
[b]solamanda[/b]
Why should the suspension on a 3k bike not be as good as it can be?
Because being overbiked is boring and sanitises trails
I don't think you can mean deliberately detuning/not optimising suspension set up in order to have more of a challenge, but that is how this reads...
Odd then that Jones didn't seem to get on with it too well this month in Dirt, on a Chumba.
The Socom that nearly killed me had a CCDB on I think 🙂
llandegla isn't exactly a real test for a rear shock is it?
I could go round there on my bmx 😉
£700 for a trail centre shock? there is a touch of the car salesman about this thread...
for only £300 more, you can have all this extra. The more you spend, the more you save, the faster you will be.....
Yeh the CCDB is good but wont work on all bikes!!! And having a shock valved for the bike means you get an amazing base set up....
If you want a smooth shock which tracks and uses its travel without blowing through the Stoy is an amazing shock!!!
It can also be serviced in the UK.
The CC can not be unless you trust Stendec! The lack of UK service centre is the reaon I will not use a CC anymore....
It is odd that Jones didn't like the CCDB on the F5, Richard from Gravity Sports, who sent the F5 over for test, rode it with the Fox RC4 and CCDB and prefered the CCDB, Dunacn Riffle who rode the F5 in world cups last year prefered the Vivid, opinions eh?
Odd then that Jones didn't seem to get on with it too well this month in Dirt, on a Chumba.
I think it just proves the notion that there is no such thing as an absolute.
Not sure i get your point? Does that go for other expensive parts for trail centres?£700 for a trail centre shock?
One of my points is, people will spend £400 on wheels, £400-£700 on forks, £100 on a carbon bar and then scrimp on the most important part of any full suspension bike, doesn't make sense, regardless of what surface or where you ride.
For some reason from what I was told the hydraulic dampening on the high end shock gave a weirg feeling to the back end...
They thought it could benefit from a more traditional shock as that is what the linkage was concieved around!
What a lightning-fast customer service response it was that just 2 weeks ago someone started this thread, and now according to the story on the front page, you can [i]already[/i] get a great deal on CCDB upgrades on Chumba frame kits........ oh.
IGMC.
I refer to my previous comment about car salesmen
Generally CCDB's are a 'one size fits all' solution, meaning they have a very wide range of adjustability to cover all linkage rates, etc. Just have a look on MTBR to see how much confusion that CCDB set up causes many (most?) people.
I personally prefer Avalanches approach of a 100% custom valve shocked assembled and tuned for the rider, terrain and bike. The external adjustments are then only for fine tuning. MUCH better IMO. The Avalanch can be rebuilt by any competant MX shop (as it uses MX seals), can be re-tuned should you change bike (even change eye-to-eye length). The customer service from Craig (owner) is second to none.
Again, plenty of animated debate on CCDB vs custom Avy's, but my money went with Avy with no regrets.
For those that are interested:
[url= http://www.avalanchedownhillracing.com/ ]http://www.avalanchedownhillracing.com/[/url]
"Damping" seems to be one of those mysterious black arts.
Theres almost no concrete information available from manufacturers, my Rockshox fork came with no instructions for the blackbox motion control setup. I think this leads to lots of confusion and mis-information on the mtb forums. Its no good just the high-end manufacturers supplying the data either because if you don't know how your current shock works how do you justify the upgrade.
What happened to the 5th element shocks too, weren't they supposed to be the latest and greatest?
hmmm this has thrown the cat amoungst the pigeons for me.. quite fancy a CCDB or even a Stoy, but damn their expensive, when my whole bike only cost 750 (2nd hand, admittedly 2k+ when new)....
Bigman where are you getting your Elka from?
If direct from Canada, how do you plan to get it serviced?
Think it may just be a RP23 in the end, much better than my std 3way Manitou POS (got a RP23 on loan)
i like my CCDB although baulk at the weight penalty.
with a spring change and alternate damping settings it can change my helius from a trail centric biased bike into a rock munching DH'esque machine.
there's a vast array and span of adjustment, and , tbh, enough opportunity to really mess up the ride, but what suits one rider doesn't suit the next.
i like my helius taut and zippy on XC style runs and soft and forgiving over rock / DH.
the frame can take it, and the shock is adaptable. makes perfect sense in my book, as does ensuring whatever shock you ride is as good as you need it to be.
of course, there's the price issue, but it's all relative, innit ?
Elka are now distributed by Silverfish! They have technician in house who has been trained to service them in house!!!
There also 450rrp iirc?
Mine was bought from Biketart. adam@biketart.com
I am keen to see how it compares against the Stoy... The BOS is an amazing shock....
The shock is here and the mounting hardware is currently being shipped! I will report back once i have had some time on the shock... Doing 3 days of shuttles next week so should be able to dial it in during that period...
If you have a look on a website called rotorburn there is a review on the BOS, Elka and CCDB..
They have actually compared all the shocks and mention in which way they find each is better... Am I aloud to post a link to it on here???
this weight issue people have with a Coil Shock really irritates me!!
FFS get a grip of yoursleves!
I have been running an low-compression (OE from SC) RP23 on my Heckler - The way those shocks have been tuned by Fox for SC SUCK!
Upgraded to a Fox Van R Coil, then Ghetto'd tubeless my Tyres and it pedals/grips/descends soo much better than the RP23.
Weight????? I can't tell that it makes any difference whatsoever -
All this fuss about 'coil shocks are too heavy' is total bollocks.
Slight thread diversion here but, i found that swoping from DU bushes to needle roller bearings on my RP23 made a massive difference to small bump sensitivity on my Blur LT.
Slightly cheaper upgrade than a CCDB too......
I agree the stoy is a great shock, forgot about it actually. Never used an avalanche but seems there pretty nice also.
400 grams extra weight over an RP23, thats funny to me. Why care?
Most people I know don't seem to bother, but setting up your suspension (existing or upgraded) properly can make a big difference to a vehicle.
[url= http://www.dirt-bike-tips-and-pics.com/dirt-bike-suspension.html ]Dirt Bike Suspension Set up[/url].
It does takes time to get it right, but good forks/shock badly set up incorrectly won't help.
Anyway, ride a hardtail and you've only got half the suspension to worry about.
I've got a CCDB on my Orange 5 and can honestly say it is a world away from the RP23 it replaced.
Better traction, small bump sensitivity, big hit capability, absence of pedal bob etc etc. Better in every respect apart from weight, which I don't notice anyway.
Yes it's expensive, yes it's heavy, but it's worth it.
Not sure about BIGMAN's comment about servicing. Stendec is listed as the UK service agent on CC's website and as far as I'm aware they are perfectly capable of servicing it. Why shouldn't I trust Stendec??
Having said all that, in support of the view that forks are more important than rear shox;
Which would you notice the biggest improvement (for general trail riding that most people do) fully rigid to hardtail or hardtail to full sus?
I'd say fully rigid to hardtail - that's why most people see forks as being more important and therefore spend more money on them.
After what the retards did to mine I would not trust them to fix an puncture never mind a shock!
The shock was not bled correctly which in turn caused the shocks compression to go wrong. Royaly buggered it. Called Stendec and they were less than helpful. Send it back and we'll look at it. 2 week turnaround and I may be charged!
Called CC and advised of problem! They apologised about Stendec. Said there aware there is a problem there and asked me to return the shock and they would fix it FOC...
Awesome by Cane Creek but i was without a shock for 4 weeks... Not ideal!
Hence I always buy a product that can be sorted in the UK quickly!!
Just going back to what mjrose said above, on air shocks, swapping bushings and mounting hardware does have a massive effect on small bump sensitivity, as does compression tune. E.g. I bought a basic Float R for my Nicolai helus FR and it was terrible (though better than the Monarch originally fitted). It took an age to settle into its sag point and just felt wooden.
I sent it back to Mojo who valved it for my bike and played around with bushes and mounting hardware and the transformation was unreal. I don't think it could've been better. this surprised me so much that in an effort to find out why I eventually spoke with Kalle Nicolai who explained that the helius platform is designed to work with a very basic shock with minimal compression damping/platform damping (something to do with levers). I also spoke with TFT who agreed with this but recommended an RP23 so it gives you something to play with settings wise. It was interesting to note that nobody suggested the DHx at any point.
So, back to what Jones said about the CCDB on the Chumba, i understand where he's coming from - some bikes simply work better with more basic but custom valved shocks (I also realise that personal preference has a large part to play here).
When I had a Chumba XCL I really felt the shock was blowing through it's travel (both the dhx air and the rp23 that replaced it). Pushed the rp23 and felt it worked pretty well. The Chumba was stolen and I ended up getting a Intense Tracer instead. I hated the (2010) rp23 it came with and replaced it with a pushed Van R. Even with a steel spring I did not feel the increased weight, but the performance was from another planet.
Now I'm waiting for an Uzzi VP frame, and I have an Elka in the closet which will be installed right away. Would have gotten the CCDB but the Elka ended up being cheaper then the upgrade to CCDB (so now I'll have an extra DHX 4 for backup).
As the pushed rp23's worked pretty well I would say it is possible to get an air shock to work decently, but I doubt it can work as well as a good coil shock.
edit: BTW, Push will soon be offering the MX tune again. This basically replaces most of the internals with Avalanche parts for far cheaper then purchasing a new shock. So if you have an old Fox shock you might want to wait and see before replacing it with one of these "higher end" shocks.
Will be in the Alps on a bike worth less than one of these shocks.
When I had plenty of disposable income I still would have struggled with a purchase like that, but yeah why not if you got the cash, have the best.
Any of you ridden Foes bikes with the Carnutt shocks?
That might have been read like and arsey comment, but was just wondering what the Foes perfomed like againt the best money can buy setup other make bikes..
Very interesting thread.
Kamina - Do you know if TF Tuned will be doing the MX Tune modification?
I've been reading about it this week and it does sound appealing. There was a US price of $499 though and I can't help but think that will translate to the same figure in £££s.
Kamina - Do you know if TF Tuned will be doing the MX Tune modification?
Yeah, I spoke with them a month or two ago and they said they would. They were not too optimistic that push would manage to stick with their original schedule though(I have not been following this lately as I got the Elka for a [b]very[/b] competitive price).
Just going back to the fork/rear damper issue I think there have been some excellent points made. Forks have a more important job to do because they control the wheel that does the majority of the steering (maybe that's not true; maybe steering on a bike is not done by any one wheel?) However, they also have an easier time of it because they have a 1:1 actuation ratio. That makes the job of damping a lot easier to manage (less heat build up, slower shaft speed, far more oil volume available for the process etc). It's also why air sprung forks can be made to work so much better relative to coil sprung versus rear dampers.
Yeah, I spoke with them a month or two ago and they said they would.
Cheers for that. Did you see any user comparisons between the MX Tune and a normal Pushed Van R?
I expect the latter would more than meet my needs to be honest.
Not sure about BIGMAN's comment about servicing. Stendec is listed as the UK service agent on CC's website and as far as I'm aware they are perfectly capable of servicing it. Why shouldn't I trust Stendec??
Haha.
Do a little research on them, and it should reveal all. I'm sure there is some pictures floating around somewhere from when they used to look after Curnutts too.
Put it this way, i've never seen tin foil used in a shock before 😉
Mickey Mouse just about sums it up.
Stendec Equals COWBOYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
sorry if this point has already been made, but it seems that a good number of folk have gone from an air shock to a high end coil and been amazed by the performance. A coil is always going to be better, I wonder if the average rider had got a dhx coil he would have still been blown away by the difference in performance at a fraction of the price. My dhx 5 for my pitch set me back £160 new.
BIGMAN I am sure you had your problems with Stendec, but to be fair to him (not them), Dave Garland the one man band who is Stendec, has helped me out many times. Not just with servicing work, but also with odd queries I have asked him about old shocks snd forks I have been tinkering with. I have been there many times, as I only live 15 mins away from him, and have spent as little as nothing (he has given me bits for nought) or as much as £550 on a CCDB. Each time he has been more than helpful and friendly. While there, I have seen all makes of shock being worked on, including BOS Stoy & Avalanche, as well as Works bikes from the Chainreaction Team & other works riders shocks/forks. He has an amazing amount of knowledge about all aspects of mtb suspension, much of it gained from working over the last 10+ years at the highest level in downhill racing. I am sure he has made mistakes like many of us, but a cowboy he aint.
geetee1972...your fork will have a far higher shaft speed than your shock, as it works on 1:1 ratio 😉
Fivespot.........
If it was a one off occurance I would agree but I am not the only person that has had a bad experience with him...
As sited earleir ask people who had there Curnutts sorted there what they thought to his work...
Do some searches espescially on descent world and see what comes up!
Final thing and I am done!!!
If his work is so good why are Cane Creek trying to find a new UK service centre at the moment????
Small bump compliance, big hit
Where were the small bumps and big hits at Llandegla then? 😛
BIGMAN
I've just searched Stendec on Decent World and it hasn't brought anything up?
How do you know CC are looking for a new service agent?
Not that I have any preference for Stendec other than that's where I bought my DB but I will want to get it serviced at some point.