[Closed] CCDB/Decent rear shocks, how many of you use one on a 'trail' bike?

I'm running a pro-pedal Vanilla R on my enduro that cost me £40 used and is more fun than the RP2 I also have. I'd be interested to try a more expensive shock but the Vanilla works so well it's not something I'd particularily be looking to upgrade.

Yeah I agree. Have never found an air shock I could honestly say I really liked but the weight thing has prevented me going coil on anything other than my big bike. Having said that, if I could justify the cash, I'd have a CDDB with Ti spring on my Blut LTc in a flash. Soooo expensive though.

I just put a CCDB on my Spicy which is used for aggressive trail riding and it decimates the Fox air can that was on there originally...the extra few hundred grammes are insignificant compared to the benefit of improved traction and damping. Im running a Lyrik Coil DH fork too. I dont think Ill be going back to air unless the weight weenie bug catches me again....
[img] [/img]

Is weight really that much of an issue on the types of bikes these shocks are installed on? around 300-400g ain't going to make much difference surely?

I'm running the CCDB on my tracer, it adds a fair bit of weight (400g on a 14kg bike!!) but isn't that noticeable when going uphill. Downhill, it is 100 times better than any air shock I have ever owned. The plushness and the way it tracks the ground swallowing any bumps in the trail is totally unmatched by anything else.

Setting up the CCDB is a real minefield. They come setup pretty well out of the factory but 1/2 a turn the wrong way on one of the adjusters can turn the bike characteristics dramatically.

When looking at changing rear shocks, there seems to have been so little choice over the years with little or no innovations that people have just stuck with the stock shocks. The CCDB is so innovative compared to anything else on the market that people seem stunned by its price tag and unwilling to upgrade it even though they would pay £800 for a new set of forks or wheels.

I agree with Si, it does seem that people underestimate the value of a decent rear shock, it makes as much difference to the performance of the bike as a new set of wheels or forks. In fact I would go as far as to say it makes more of a difference than forks as it is constantly under pressure or moving under pedalling forces

Stop it! I managed to convince myself a few days ago that I didn't need/couldn't afford a CDDB...

Yes CCDB on Chumba XCL. My thoughts echo those of the above CCDB users, not noticed the extra weight but I have noticed the benefits, a mind blowing difference and it continues to get better and better as you get used to how it rides, probably the best upgrade I have ever made to a bike.

There is a good choice out there now, CCDB, Elka, Avalanche etc. They are expensive, but no more so than wheels and forks.

The biggest problem is the lack of understanding about the damper units, to help people achieve what they desire from the shock.

pedalhead - you need it do what you can to get one 🙂

Everyone (almost) needs a CCDB. Once you have ridden one, guaranteed you will want one. They are expensive but you will definitely notice a positive difference

The biggest problem is the lack of understanding about the damper units, to help people achieve what they desire from the shock.

Agreed. The CCDB manual does give you guidance on it but it does require several rides and a lot of patience turning dials one click at a time until you find the correct setting. One click too far and you will totally bugger up the settings

I shall be reading this thread very thoroughly. I have got an Intense 6.6 and the DHX5 Air is horrible! My first try of an air shock and I am not impressed. Been looking at what to go for. Fox, Rock Shock, Elka, Bos or CCDB. Of those the CCDB is getting really rave reviews so seems like its worth the price.

One click too far and you will totally bugger up the settings

at least 2 of you have said this - seems a bit OTT if they really react that massively to tiny adjustments ?

One click makes a noticeable difference thats for sure, not sure its enough to totally bugger it up but one click can takes things beyond optimal.
I was pretty surprised at the range of the CCDB TBH - its incredibly versatile.
I also found the instructions pretty helpful and fettled understanding what changes I was making and able to sense the changes. having said that - it aint dialed in totally yet! 🙂

If I'm honest I have doubts that I'd be clever enough to dial in a really complicated shock very well, and hence might not get the best out of it. I'm kind of a "set it & leave it" type of person.

ccdb on my nicolai helius am and my turner 6 pack before that.
trail set up is high preload with lots of lsc and hsc. dh / am set up is less lsc and hsc.
stunning shock, totally adaptable.
weight penalty to be countered with ti spring. vikingboy - is that a cane creek spring ?

Having said that, if I could justify the cash, I'd have a CDDB with Ti spring on my Blut LTc in a flash. [b]Soooo expensive though[/b].

Thats the funniest thing i've heard all day - when you've spent [b]£2400 [/b]on a frame..................

Everyone has a budget, that was mine.

pedalhead, what size shock does your LT take?

Using my old Enduro as a baseline, I fitted a Romic shock which did wonders for traction and downhill plushness.

I had the Fox Float PUSHed and much to my amazement, I preferred it to the Romic...

When it's all said and done though I don't think I'm that good enough a rider to really appreciate the difference, all I can say is that the PUSHed shock felt nicer.

Si, it's 8.5" (215mm) eye-eye, with a 2.5" (63mm) stroke.

Mounting hardware is 21.8mm with a 8mm through hole.

(scraped from SC website)

Si, it's 8.5" (215mm) eye-eye, with a 2.5" (63mm) stroke.

Shame, i could have let you have a go with a CCDB, but i only have 200x57 🙁

Very kind thought nevertheless, thanks 🙂

I'll try a 200x57 if its going spare- been keen to try a coil on my Nicolai 😉

I have a PUSH'd VAN R on my zesty as I do not respect air shocks, but, realistically, do you need a super spec shock with hi\lo compression on a 140mm trail bike? especially when you generally don't have that on your fork?
First point of contact is your fork, so that where to put your cash, surely?
IMO The limiting factor is your fork, not rear suspension (see the ancient technology know as "hardtail")
Of course, a DH bike with with 8" travel is a different matter, Fox 40 + DHX RC4 makes complete sense.

In the end, I think it comes down to too many middle aged men with lots of expendable income, riding trail centres and spending silly money on bike parts.

Custom tuned Avalanche on my Turner. CCDB's are common as muck.

oh and vikingboy, so I can understand your comments, can you please define the

aggressive trail riding

I have one on my Nicolai Helius FR and it is is brilliant.Takes a bit of time to fettle and get it right. Very little LSC/lsr running on mine,Tracks the ground like nothing on earth.

I had a pushed dhx5 coil before and the ccdb is leagues above it.I am faster over the rough stuff on this.

When i order my next bike xc/trail i think i will miss the plushness/smoothness of the ccdb(i will make sure that the ccdb can be fitted though) going to try a monarch air can.

as usual, a thread with lots of noise and no substance

IMO The limiting factor is your fork, not rear suspension

And how did you come that amazing conclusion? Are both parts not in direct contact with the earth? Why not just buy a cheap FS frame and stick a top end fork on it then?

So why did you bother with a pushed Van? or suspension at all?

Not sure what that has to do with anything, my point was if you are going to have suspension then you may as well as have it working to its best ability.

Its a do it all bike so it basically does everything from trail centres through to DH. Its doing the Megavalanche later this year as I move towards more enduro type stuff.

I was actually thinking of sending the discarded Rp2 to tftuned to see how it performs with their mod's given all the positive press I read about them.

Dasnut - Your Zesty is a excellent platform for adding on a high end shock like a CCDB due to its inherent stability and resistance to pedal induced bob. Even though its "only" 140mm, you'll get far more control when using a shock which can track the ground as excellently as something like a CCDB. I was shocked just how much more traction was afforded by the swap....Id love to see what a Ohlins developed fork could do too....

OOC, what "substance" do you want exactly?

And how did you come that amazing conclusion? Are both parts not in direct contact with the earth? Why not just buy a cheap FS frame and stick a top end fork on it then?

my point is whether you need a £600 shock with hi\lo compression adjustment, or a £250 shock tuned to your weight, and usage.

fair enough, if you take a look at your trail and say, "today I am going to need more hi speed compression damping and I'll get to the bottom of the hill .2s faster"
but I am not a downhill racer, surely the purpose of these shocks is to be constantly tweaking them for the terrain - whereas most trail riders find a setting they "like" and leave it. So get a VAN R tuned to how you "like" and save yourself £350.
And how many people know how to tweak a shock correctly? VAN R theres nothing but rebound to get wrong.

and vikingboy, good to see the spicy being used for its intended purpose.

Anyone tried the new RS Vivid 5.1 shock?

http://www.sram.com/node/177/brand/rockshox/src/cat

So get a VAN R tuned to how you "like" and save yourself £350.

plus the weight difference is a little more than 400g as well (unless you are a midget), tis nearer 630g for me

si_progressivebikes - Member

Shame, i could have let you have a go with a CCDB, but i only have 200x57

My Intense 6.6 has an awful DHX5 Air and its 200x57. Would love to have a go with a CCDB! 😉

Sorry to drag this thread back up, but i finally had the chance to ride my VF2 with CCDB yesterday at Llandegla, and all i can say is wow!

Small bump compliance, big hit and control are massively improved over the RP23. What suprised me most was how well it climbed. Even though i was running around 35% sag the bike felt balanced and composed, but still taught, without the feeling it was wallowing in its stroke, which i always felt the RP23 was doing without the pro pedal switched on.

Traction was amazing, felt like i was running the best tyres in the world if you know what i mean?

All in all very impressed, and i have had only a couple of rides with it!

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This is not good news for my wallet si 🙄

I have one on my DH bike and it is quite frankly amazing. Personally, despite their cost not being a big issue to me I don't see that much point in running them on my trail bikes. I've not yet found a point where I felt my trail bike [i]needed[/i] a back end that good. Infact I wouldn't want my trail bike rear end to work that well as I feel having a front bias for grip on a bike with the saddle running higher is only a good thing. Also you simply don't need that level of performance on a trail bike and it adds needless weight to the bike.

Yes they are nice but overkill if you are only using a trail bike, as a trail (xc) bike.

Have to say, for me weight is a limiting factor. My AM bike is 32lbs with a DHX 3 (which I must admit isn't great) and am really keen to swap for an RP23 in order to lop an extra half pound of weight off as well as improve performance.

If a coil could get down to air weight, I would, but as it is they're too weighty. I don't want my 32lb bike to weigh even more than that.

I really do have to disagree. Why should the suspension on a 3k bike not be as good as it can be? Weight is the only reason I can think of for not wanting a good coil, but it's a trade off worth having IMO

Why should the suspension on a 3k bike not be as good as it can be?

Because being overbiked is boring and sanitises trails.

I can see it if your bike weighs sub 30lbs, but not a lot of bikes like this do, and for me air is sill the answer. Riding a bike over 30lbs all day is a real bind.

I use mine for DH (personally I'm too light and scrawny to muscle a DH bike, I just can't ride the things as fast), big mountains and trail centres and only for the proper DH would I perceive the benefits of the shock being more important than the weight on my bike.

Because being overbiked is boring and sanitises trails.

Depends what trails you ride and how you ride them.

My bike still has the same 5" travel, it just works better 🙂 so to make trails more fun you prefer parts that don't work as well as they should?

I prefer a bike with a front bias for grip for riding xc. DH bike is different.

A fork is a tranferable upgrade should you change your frame, an upgraded shock probably won't be due to different eye to eye / stroke etc. That's probably why it's not considered as much IMO even if it is logical.

Get your point though, now is there a CCDB for a 2006 Enduro? 🙂

The CCDB is the best shock out there and if you have the money then there is no reason not to get one, end of discussion.

If you can't really afford one then get an RC4.

I would disagree with the previous statement... The Stoy and the CCDB are probably of the same standard. The BOS Stoy though is a mich smoother shock...

It also comes valved for each bike unlike the CCDB! So for most people who can not get there head around HS and LS adjusters its probably a more useable unit!!

I am waiting for an Elka to arrive at the moment and am keen to see how it compares with the other 2 units. Like the BOS the Elka is valved for specific frames.

Reviews coming in from Canada are showing good performance comparable to a CCDb and Stoy for a lower price....

I agree, it's hard to say the CCDB is the best out there, however, shocks like the Elka and Stoy require that you know what you want from your shock when you order it, once it is set it is more difficult (though not impossible) to change the settings, unlike the CCDB. So even though the CCDB may seem confusing, once you start to use it and understand the principals of each setting it can be easier to tune to your preferences on the fly.

I really want to get my hands on an Elka, once i understand a little more about what my frame and my riding style likes.

Yep am also running a CCDB:

[img] [/img]

This bike weighs in at 30.5lbs and switching to an RP23 would save around 400g. It might be worthwhile but I doubt it. The performance of the CCDB is just too good.

Si - your comments mirror my experience, which is that there is a true separation of high and low speed compression. I've always found on most air dampers, that the low speed compression works to inhibit the movement of the initial part of the shock stroke. This then gives a firm platform that reduces pedal/rider induced bob, but it also inhibits compliance over smaller hits and therefore reduces grip.

With the CCDB, I have probably about 50% of the LSC wound on; the bike is super stable, has zereo bob and can be pumped through the trail no problem. But even over the smallest of bumps, which shoud still be 'high speed' compression events, the the damper responds and gives amazing levels of grip.

The point about the CCDB not being custom shimmed is true but it's beccause it doesn't need it. The range of adjustment is so large that it doesn't need to be custom shimmed.

[b]solamanda[/b]

Why should the suspension on a 3k bike not be as good as it can be?
Because being overbiked is boring and sanitises trails

I don't think you can mean deliberately detuning/not optimising suspension set up in order to have more of a challenge, but that is how this reads...

Odd then that Jones didn't seem to get on with it too well this month in Dirt, on a Chumba.

The Socom that nearly killed me had a CCDB on I think 🙂

llandegla isn't exactly a real test for a rear shock is it?
I could go round there on my bmx 😉

£700 for a trail centre shock? there is a touch of the car salesman about this thread...

for only £300 more, you can have all this extra. The more you spend, the more you save, the faster you will be.....

Yeh the CCDB is good but wont work on all bikes!!! And having a shock valved for the bike means you get an amazing base set up....

If you want a smooth shock which tracks and uses its travel without blowing through the Stoy is an amazing shock!!!

It can also be serviced in the UK.

The CC can not be unless you trust Stendec! The lack of UK service centre is the reaon I will not use a CC anymore....

It is odd that Jones didn't like the CCDB on the F5, Richard from Gravity Sports, who sent the F5 over for test, rode it with the Fox RC4 and CCDB and prefered the CCDB, Dunacn Riffle who rode the F5 in world cups last year prefered the Vivid, opinions eh?

Odd then that Jones didn't seem to get on with it too well this month in Dirt, on a Chumba.

I think it just proves the notion that there is no such thing as an absolute.

£700 for a trail centre shock?

One of my points is, people will spend £400 on wheels, £400-£700 on forks, £100 on a carbon bar and then scrimp on the most important part of any full suspension bike, doesn't make sense, regardless of what surface or where you ride.

For some reason from what I was told the hydraulic dampening on the high end shock gave a weirg feeling to the back end...

They thought it could benefit from a more traditional shock as that is what the linkage was concieved around!

What a lightning-fast customer service response it was that just 2 weeks ago someone started this thread, and now according to the story on the front page, you can [i]already[/i] get a great deal on CCDB upgrades on Chumba frame kits........ oh.

IGMC.

I refer to my previous comment about car salesmen

Generally CCDB's are a 'one size fits all' solution, meaning they have a very wide range of adjustability to cover all linkage rates, etc. Just have a look on MTBR to see how much confusion that CCDB set up causes many (most?) people.

I personally prefer Avalanches approach of a 100% custom valve shocked assembled and tuned for the rider, terrain and bike. The external adjustments are then only for fine tuning. MUCH better IMO. The Avalanch can be rebuilt by any competant MX shop (as it uses MX seals), can be re-tuned should you change bike (even change eye-to-eye length). The customer service from Craig (owner) is second to none.

Again, plenty of animated debate on CCDB vs custom Avy's, but my money went with Avy with no regrets.

For those that are interested:

[url= http://www.avalanchedownhillracing.com/ ]http://www.avalanchedownhillracing.com/[/url]

"Damping" seems to be one of those mysterious black arts.

Theres almost no concrete information available from manufacturers, my Rockshox fork came with no instructions for the blackbox motion control setup. I think this leads to lots of confusion and mis-information on the mtb forums. Its no good just the high-end manufacturers supplying the data either because if you don't know how your current shock works how do you justify the upgrade.

What happened to the 5th element shocks too, weren't they supposed to be the latest and greatest?

hmmm this has thrown the cat amoungst the pigeons for me.. quite fancy a CCDB or even a Stoy, but damn their expensive, when my whole bike only cost 750 (2nd hand, admittedly 2k+ when new)....

Bigman where are you getting your Elka from?
If direct from Canada, how do you plan to get it serviced?

Think it may just be a RP23 in the end, much better than my std 3way Manitou POS (got a RP23 on loan)

i like my CCDB although baulk at the weight penalty.
with a spring change and alternate damping settings it can change my helius from a trail centric biased bike into a rock munching DH'esque machine.
there's a vast array and span of adjustment, and , tbh, enough opportunity to really mess up the ride, but what suits one rider doesn't suit the next.
i like my helius taut and zippy on XC style runs and soft and forgiving over rock / DH.
the frame can take it, and the shock is adaptable. makes perfect sense in my book, as does ensuring whatever shock you ride is as good as you need it to be.
of course, there's the price issue, but it's all relative, innit ?

Elka are now distributed by Silverfish! They have technician in house who has been trained to service them in house!!!

There also 450rrp iirc?

Mine was bought from Biketart. adam@biketart.com

I am keen to see how it compares against the Stoy... The BOS is an amazing shock....

The shock is here and the mounting hardware is currently being shipped! I will report back once i have had some time on the shock... Doing 3 days of shuttles next week so should be able to dial it in during that period...

If you have a look on a website called rotorburn there is a review on the BOS, Elka and CCDB..

They have actually compared all the shocks and mention in which way they find each is better... Am I aloud to post a link to it on here???

this weight issue people have with a Coil Shock really irritates me!!

FFS get a grip of yoursleves!

I have been running an low-compression (OE from SC) RP23 on my Heckler - The way those shocks have been tuned by Fox for SC SUCK!

Upgraded to a Fox Van R Coil, then Ghetto'd tubeless my Tyres and it pedals/grips/descends soo much better than the RP23.

Weight????? I can't tell that it makes any difference whatsoever -

All this fuss about 'coil shocks are too heavy' is total bollocks.

http://www.rotorburn.com/article/a866a3/Review_Fox_40WC_and_DHX_RC4

http://www.rotorburn.com/article/a5a1b8/BOS_S_Toy_Review

http://www.rotorburn.net/article/f84959/Review_Elka_Stage_5_Shock

Slight thread diversion here but, i found that swoping from DU bushes to needle roller bearings on my RP23 made a massive difference to small bump sensitivity on my Blur LT.

Slightly cheaper upgrade than a CCDB too......

I agree the stoy is a great shock, forgot about it actually. Never used an avalanche but seems there pretty nice also.

400 grams extra weight over an RP23, thats funny to me. Why care?

Most people I know don't seem to bother, but setting up your suspension (existing or upgraded) properly can make a big difference to a vehicle.

[url= http://www.dirt-bike-tips-and-pics.com/dirt-bike-suspension.html ]Dirt Bike Suspension Set up[/url].

It does takes time to get it right, but good forks/shock badly set up incorrectly won't help.

Anyway, ride a hardtail and you've only got half the suspension to worry about.

I've got a CCDB on my Orange 5 and can honestly say it is a world away from the RP23 it replaced.

Better traction, small bump sensitivity, big hit capability, absence of pedal bob etc etc. Better in every respect apart from weight, which I don't notice anyway.

Yes it's expensive, yes it's heavy, but it's worth it.

Not sure about BIGMAN's comment about servicing. Stendec is listed as the UK service agent on CC's website and as far as I'm aware they are perfectly capable of servicing it. Why shouldn't I trust Stendec??

Having said all that, in support of the view that forks are more important than rear shox;

Which would you notice the biggest improvement (for general trail riding that most people do) fully rigid to hardtail or hardtail to full sus?

I'd say fully rigid to hardtail - that's why most people see forks as being more important and therefore spend more money on them.

After what the retards did to mine I would not trust them to fix an puncture never mind a shock!

The shock was not bled correctly which in turn caused the shocks compression to go wrong. Royaly buggered it. Called Stendec and they were less than helpful. Send it back and we'll look at it. 2 week turnaround and I may be charged!

Called CC and advised of problem! They apologised about Stendec. Said there aware there is a problem there and asked me to return the shock and they would fix it FOC...

Awesome by Cane Creek but i was without a shock for 4 weeks... Not ideal!

Hence I always buy a product that can be sorted in the UK quickly!!

Just going back to what mjrose said above, on air shocks, swapping bushings and mounting hardware does have a massive effect on small bump sensitivity, as does compression tune. E.g. I bought a basic Float R for my Nicolai helus FR and it was terrible (though better than the Monarch originally fitted). It took an age to settle into its sag point and just felt wooden.

I sent it back to Mojo who valved it for my bike and played around with bushes and mounting hardware and the transformation was unreal. I don't think it could've been better. this surprised me so much that in an effort to find out why I eventually spoke with Kalle Nicolai who explained that the helius platform is designed to work with a very basic shock with minimal compression damping/platform damping (something to do with levers). I also spoke with TFT who agreed with this but recommended an RP23 so it gives you something to play with settings wise. It was interesting to note that nobody suggested the DHx at any point.

So, back to what Jones said about the CCDB on the Chumba, i understand where he's coming from - some bikes simply work better with more basic but custom valved shocks (I also realise that personal preference has a large part to play here).

When I had a Chumba XCL I really felt the shock was blowing through it's travel (both the dhx air and the rp23 that replaced it). Pushed the rp23 and felt it worked pretty well. The Chumba was stolen and I ended up getting a Intense Tracer instead. I hated the (2010) rp23 it came with and replaced it with a pushed Van R. Even with a steel spring I did not feel the increased weight, but the performance was from another planet.

Now I'm waiting for an Uzzi VP frame, and I have an Elka in the closet which will be installed right away. Would have gotten the CCDB but the Elka ended up being cheaper then the upgrade to CCDB (so now I'll have an extra DHX 4 for backup).

As the pushed rp23's worked pretty well I would say it is possible to get an air shock to work decently, but I doubt it can work as well as a good coil shock.

edit: BTW, Push will soon be offering the MX tune again. This basically replaces most of the internals with Avalanche parts for far cheaper then purchasing a new shock. So if you have an old Fox shock you might want to wait and see before replacing it with one of these "higher end" shocks.

Will be in the Alps on a bike worth less than one of these shocks.

When I had plenty of disposable income I still would have struggled with a purchase like that, but yeah why not if you got the cash, have the best.

Any of you ridden Foes bikes with the Carnutt shocks?

That might have been read like and arsey comment, but was just wondering what the Foes perfomed like againt the best money can buy setup other make bikes..

Very interesting thread.

Kamina - Do you know if TF Tuned will be doing the MX Tune modification?

I've been reading about it this week and it does sound appealing. There was a US price of $499 though and I can't help but think that will translate to the same figure in £££s.

Kamina - Do you know if TF Tuned will be doing the MX Tune modification?

Yeah, I spoke with them a month or two ago and they said they would. They were not too optimistic that push would manage to stick with their original schedule though(I have not been following this lately as I got the Elka for a [b]very[/b] competitive price).