Like many, I looked at these new fangled gravel bikes and was sold on the dream of endless adventure and instant Bear Grylls survival skills in the wilds 10 minutes away from home...
... long story short, I test rode an Enigma somethingorothergravel and it was bloody terrifying to ride off road and the toe overlap made it a complete non starter for anything other than straight line riding. It was a nice road bike with bigger tyres but there's no way I fancied more than a few minutes off road out of sheer terror.
Looking in to it a bit more and taking a brand like Cannondale for example, there seems to be next to no difference in geometry between something like their CX bike, Topstone (gravel), Supersix and CAAD13. The raciest System Six steepens everything and has a touch less stack but looks much the same geometry-wise to me.
I realise some "gravel" bikes do differ a bit more but to a luddite like me they seem to be much the same geometry as a road bike but just the features such as tyre clearance, cable routing or build list seem to differentiate these curly barred bikes into different sub categories.
Is this a fair assessment and did I expect too much of a "gravel" bike coming from a (albeit rigid SS) MTB perspective?
Is there such a thing as a light, durable, racey, curly barred bike that is actually not terrifying off road? Even something like a Lauf Seigla or BMC URS seems to be more of a roadies wider tyred bike, rather than a MTBers longer distance, less technical off road bike if that makes sense?
Does a "gravel" bike inherently make more sense to someone who spends the bulk of their time on road bikes rather than on MTBs?
Can anyone make sense of this pointless ramble? 🙂
Ta!
Is there such a thing as a light, durable, racey curly barred bike that is actually not terrifying off road?
So the weirdos on here say.
But no. They're poopy
But no. They’re poopy
+1
They’re only terrifying when you compare them to a modern (frankly, excellent) mtb.
An alternative view might be that they make really tame terrain quite exciting.
Horses for courses innit.
Glad it's not just me
An alternative view might be that they make really tame terrain quite exciting
That's different to making it fun though. Exciting through fear of crashing isn't exactly what I'm wanting from a bimble around.
An alternative view might be that they make really tame terrain quite exciting.
My only bike at the moment is a rigid SS, built around a 66 degree HTA, wheelbase in excess of 1200mm and reach around 470mm for my 5'9" height. I am in no way anything close to a rad endurbro but that bike can still feel like a twitchy XC bike around twisty singletrack, whilst also be damned fun just about anywhere. Maybe this has spoilt me in the "making the trails come alive" stakes without the level of terror I felt on that gravel bike
This is the thread I’ve been waiting for!
Is there such a thing as a light, durable, racey curly barred bike that is actually not terrifying off road?
Not that I can see.
I’ve had a FreeRanger since April & have done about 1200 miles of varying terrain on it.
It’s fast, but not on ‘proper’ off-road. It’s not even comfortable, after 20 miles my arms are aching whereas this has never occurred in 32 years of riding MTB’s.
How anyone can say that control is good on the drops while descending is beyond me. If that was the case someone should tell Danny Hart & all the other DH crew.
Let me know if you find the bike in question.
Gravel bikes are not MTB's, and, imo, should not be used for mtbing. Gravel bikes are for, well, gravel roads, or as there are a lot of them in the UK, normal no techy bridleways, canal tow paths and other light off road routes where larger tyres make it more comfortable and racier geo, make it faster.
I've just got a Cotic Cascade cos I wanted something a bit beefier, but my London road before was good and fast off road too. It did suffer from toe overlap though, which the cotic doesn't.
Drop bars also have more places to put your hands than flat bars.
Saying all that, I may well try the Cascade with some swept back flat bars like the on one OG's at some point.
I also don't get why road bikes in general have to be so short and twitchy when their job is by and large going very fast in straight or nearly straight lines. Road bike geometry seems even more backwards than the XC bike market a few years ago and even that is slow to change for goodness knows what reason. Feel twitchy and near death experiences = racey fast???
How use to drop bars are you?
But basically yes it’s terrifying. Well not terrifying for me but I know what you mean
To me the fast handling is the whole point. On my MTB riding from home I can basically just pedal and go round the odd corner. On my gravel bike I’m swerving round roots etc.
They're total bum on anything properly offroad, but they're good fun for bimbling around on mixed surfaces or doing bigger distances because they're more closely related to road bikes. The niche they occupy is fairly small IMO My kinesis is more capable than my old topstone, but still nowhere near any sort of MTB for riding down stuff.
For me it works better as a companion to my enduro bike than a hardtail or hybrid because it opens up a type of riding I wouldn't normally do. For context, don't have or really want a roadbike, but being able to zip along roads at a decent rate to get to more interesting places is a useful thing.
Is there such a thing as a light, durable, racey, curly barred bike that is actually not terrifying off road?
I think it depends on when you got into mtb. I was racing XC 30 years ago, on mtbs less capable off road than a modern gravel bike.
Drop bars also have more places to put your hands than flat bars.
This was part of what got me on to trying gravel bikes. I had the vision of a MTB with a little less technical ability but more hand position variation to increase long distance comfort.
In reality, I believe a well designed rigid 29er MTB with Conti 2.2 Racekings will be faster than just about any curly bar bike off road, even tow paths and long forest roads. If you need variation in hand positions and want to be more aero then fit some aero bars...
... which is what I guess most of the fastest Tour Divide style bikes end up being.
Toe overlap? On a gravel bike?
Don't even have any on my oldschool geo 51cm CX bike...
No problem with drop bars and spend a reasonable time on road bikes.
Started MTB around 20 years ago where a Marin Mount Vision was an absolute revelation to how fast you could go off road 🙂
I think the conclusion I'm coming to is a "gravel" bike is a trendy road bike for UK churned up roads and the occasional cautious off road shortcut which you wouldn't do on a full on road bike, rather than a more varied hand position MTB for longer less technical rides which was my original thought.
Good to hear I am not too far wide of the mark on my first impressions 🙂
I love mine. I've had quite a few of them too. Currently on a Pipedream Alice and it's awesomne. Perfect for what I need, mixture of tame trails, pootling around the countryside and canals, covers it all.
I don't really understand why folk compare the grave bike to a mtb, it's completely different. It's just a bike that bridges the gap in the market. I don't need an mtb for what I ride or a road bike, a cx bike is to racey and not enough tyre clearance. This bike does exactly what I need it to.
If your getting toe overlap then that's just a wrong size bike for you. As for it being terrifying to ride off-road, what terrain are you riding? Everything I ride isn't technical (due to location and skillset) and no matter what mtb I ride it always feels dull and boring to ride, my gravel/adventure bike makes "the trails come alive" (as Giant would once say) I love riding mine offroad, proper makes me grin and enjoy cycling again. But they're not for everyone, The Enigma is more of a road biased gravel bike I would say, same with the dales. Perhaps you should try the Nukeproof, Ragley or NS Rag. That might offer you a more confident ride that you could get on with.
even tow paths and long forest roads.
Nah, cross and gravel bikes are chunks faster than MTBs on trails like that.
the best gravel bike ever is a nice lightweight 100mm forked hardtail.............FACT
Even gravel double track was terrifying and I struggled to get any speed up for fear of all things bad. This is with the context of enjoying a road bike on the road and bombing around on a rigid SS which isn't exactly forgiving off road either.
I would agree that the average MTB very much dulls a lot of the rides I would naturally do. I put a 100mm SID on my rigid SS and hated it. I think in my SS, I may have just found the balance of "making the trails come alive" and not having too many 20p/ 50p moments than I'd ideally like which makes bouncier MTBs and twitchier gravel bikes feel a bit pointless
the best gravel bike ever is a nice lightweight 100mm forked hardtail………….FACT
Mrs says I can get one. 🤔😜
I can't explain it, but you can pry the curly bars (and steep roadie geometry) out of my cold dead hands 😎
But then, I don't suffer for trying to ride MTB trails on my gravel bike. Fast, rocky, slippy yes, but fast handling helps here and weight over the front isn't necessarily a hindrance. But steep, techy or requiring lots of braking? Give me a 29er with big monkey-wide flat bars please 😎
Nah, cross and gravel bikes are chunks faster than MTBs on trails like that.
the best gravel bike ever is a nice lightweight 100mm forked hardtail………….FACT
Going back to my Tour Divide example, some people fit aero bars to MTBs and some people bulk up gravel style bikes and as far as I recall, the MTB (and of course rider) is most often fastest. Or the fastest guys and girls choose the MTB depending how you look at it. That is obviously an extreme event but probably a good illustration of what gravel bikes are sold as (long distance in comfort and speed), but not really being that good at IMO
esselgruntfuttock
Free Member
the best gravel bike ever is a nice lightweight 100mm forked hardtail………….FACTMrs says I can get one. 🤔😜
specialized rockhopper elite.
I think the conclusion I’m coming to is a “gravel” bike is a trendy road bike for UK churned up roads and the occasional cautious off road shortcut which you wouldn’t do on a full on road bike, rather than a more varied hand position MTB for longer less technical rides which was my original thought.
I'd pretty much agree with that.
Took me a fair bit longer and more bike experiments to come to that conclusion though!
I came to the same conclusion back when CX bikes as quiver killers were all the rage. Initially quite fun but eventually realised that they didn't do anything particularly satisfactorily, bar CX races (even then cantis and drop bar levers were terrible). My Scandal with a 100mm fork was a better bike by a mile.
I'd still buy a gravel bike but it'd be as a tourer alternative. Indeed I have a charge plug built as a commuter/winter type thing.
The bars thing is interesting though. There was a great article written many years ago, possibly on mtbr, maybe by Shiggy(?), on drop bars and use off road. IME the more alt or sweep the bar has the less control you have but more comfort,this is negated if the drops are below where you would have a flat bar.
When you say 'good off road' what do you mean? They're not for singletrack or anything steep or interesting. They are for covering ground on fire roads, vehicle tracks and the like. You CAN ride singletrack or technical things on them if you want, but that's done by people who just want the challenge. They're not actually good at it.
I ride a steep angled rigid MTB with relatively narrow flat bars but big tyres. For me this is the best of all worlds, because it can properly MTB albeit slower than a suspension bike, but it is still great on road and fire road. A long local ride for me might involve ten miles of road, some fire road, a rock strewn gulley climb, a track across the moors, a technical descent through a forest and ten road miles home. Such rides are a chore on a trail bike, but the technical singletrack is not so good on a gravel style bike. It also has MTB gears which many gravel bikes don't. This is important on very steep loose terrain.
The stuff I like most on a gravel bike is stuff you *could* ride on a road bike but it would just be a bit shit. There's a surprising amount of that stuff about but it's often linked with more tarmac than you'd typically want to ride on an MTB.
FWIW even though I really like drop bars I don't think they're the be all and end all so if you prefer flat bars then just stick with them.
I also don’t get why road bikes in general have to be so short and twitchy when their job is by and large going very fast in straight or nearly straight lines.
Not true. There are lots of times the lively handling of a roadbike helps - in a bunch, on poor road surfaces, cornering fast. Riding a road bike with a geometry that suits your riding style is a great experience.
Going back to my Tour Divide example, some people fit aero bars to MTBs and some people bulk up gravel style bikes and as far as I recall, the MTB (and of course rider) is most often fastest
Tyre size is the important thing for something like that, 29ers rule whatever the bar type. And on a shorter ride a bigger tyre + wheel is always going to allow more speed and grip esp downhill than an average gravel bike tyre.
probably a good illustration of what gravel bikes are sold as (long distance in comfort and speed), but not really being that good at IMO
You're basing that opinion on one test ride if a bike which sounds like it didn't fit you? 😎
I treat my gravel bike for what it is, a road bike with slightly bigger tyres and slightly lower gears. My road bike would be horrible if I stuck loads of luggage on it (that's why tourers exist) and similarly my road bike isn't really much fun if I just want to go for a gentle bumble.
Perhaps what gravel bikes are actually 'good' for is just too specific a niche for many, and yet... I seem to find endless fantastic gravel riding everywhere I go and am rarely tempted to dust off the 29er. Weird
re the bars, a flat bar with bar ends is almost the same position to ride in, that MOST people will ride in using dropped bars on a gravel bike.
But no. They’re poopy
Would sir like a growacet prescription? 😀
I think gravel bikes are great in the UK as long as you have enough rubber. I suspect less than 45c is going to limit what you can do and how fast in a lot of places, unless you are very light. And given that a lot of our off-road is in places where no-one wants to put a tarmac road, lower gears are probably going to be useful.
You CAN ride singletrack or technical things on them if you want, but that’s done by people who just want the challenge. They’re not actually good at it.
This pretty much sums it up for me too
My cx bike makes the woods at the back of Nationwide come alive, and that’s good enough for me.
I’m crap at being a proper mountain biker but drop bar bikes seem to work for me right now. They make tame off-road more interesting/fun and don’t feel sluggish which I hate about my mtb.
You CAN ride singletrack or technical things on them if you want, but that’s done by people who just want the challenge. They’re not actually good at it.
Is this true though? If you're not braking or going over bumps, I reckon a drop bar bike would actually be faster on a lot of singletrack (granted, not technical terrain). And it's amazing how much of the 'right' sort of singletrack actually exists where drop bars feel fast and fun.
re the bars, a flat bar with bar ends is almost the same position to ride in, that MOST people will ride in using dropped bars on a gravel bike.
... except wider, and more upright, and you don't have the brakes and gears at your fingertips.
I've dicked about endlessly with flat bars and bar ends trying to make my 29er more like my gravel bike, but nothing feels as ergonomic as a proper drop bar set up (but I haven't fallen for the slammed stem nonsense, my drops are at a useable height)
The red at Dalby is quite fun on a gravel bike with the exception of a couple of drops that are easy rolls on an MTB and “no thanks I value my wheels / chain ring / skin” on a gravel bike.
Sherwood Pines red would be mint.
The red at Dalby is quite fun on a gravel bike with the exception of a couple of drops that are easy rolls on an MTB and “no thanks I value my wheels / chain ring / skin” on a gravel bike
That's the rub though, on a fast HT, you see a sneaky trail when passing a wood, you can jump on and check it out, if it gets a bit rooty or rocky it's ok, but on the gravel bike you've lost that option, you just keep going down the fire road having your soul sucked out of your brain
You do have to peer at geometry tables a bit.
My experience is that we've one CX bike - steep angles and very rigid.
My 'do it all' curly worly bike looks identical. Indeed it's within millimetres of the CX bike in many ways....apart from head angle. The front wheel is kicked out a fair way. Soooooo much more stable and more intuitive.
I was chatting to a friend on a bike tour who was desperate to persuade me that a fast, really fast handling road bike was what I needed. It apparently 'nips around' and 'bat of an eyelid and it's turning' yaddayadda. I challenged him that at 30mph, like a modern mountain bike, would stable and carving not be better for most riding? Nippy is maybe great in the TDF peloton, less so rattling around Highland roads that we were on at the time...
Curly worly bars, I'm still meh on. Mrs_oab is back on flats, and much prefers being able to reach brake levers. (Yes we did space them in and get bike shop to check our set up. Thier advice - tiny hands and shifting or braking wasn't the best...)
Oh, and +1 on the bikes are for totally different riding.
MTB = bumpy tracks, single track, 'proper' mountain rides.
Curly wurly do it all bikes = roads, tracks, tours, commuting, shopping etc. Mine is not really 'gravel' set up, with 36mm nearly slick tyres, but it's amazing what it gets up and down. However, I live in a place where we can maximise it's use from our door.
That’s the rub though, on a fast HT, you see a sneaky trail when passing a wood, you can jump on and check it out, if it gets a bit rooty or rocky it’s ok, but on the gravel bike you’ve lost that option, you just keep going down the fire road having your soul sucked out of your brain
Au contraire. One, why wouldn’t you nip down an interest sneaky trail? I have. Sometimes it doesn’t work. Two, why were you restricting yourself to the fire road in the first place. Gravel bikes on singletrack are great - just keep the bars high enough to stay in the drops.
PS - I also have a fast hard tail. And a full suss. But given my skills are probably better than my confidence at speed, gravel bikes on tech trails have their advantages.
Toe overlap can obviously be more of an issue if you have big feet or like to ride with your foot further forward on the pedal. Mudguards make this even worse.
Toe overlap can be properly dangerous when ridden off road. Less of an issue on road.
I think a racey hardtail with semi slicks is the best type of bike for fast off-road that can also ride more technical trails.
I can get down most of my local trails on my cross bike but it's not fast nor easy on the more challenging trails.
It’s interesting how popular gravel bikes are given the number of posters on this thread who say they are rubbish. 🙄
