[Closed] Bearing, bearings, bearings, Who thinks they know the score?

Jamie

You like my tag collection, bringing the funk and colour back to STW.

show us where the ride spots are you go to, on the map and tell us what they're like?

oh, you mean [url= http://www.bogtrotters.org/maptest.php?jumpto=336205,502235,8,12,269,325,465,0 ]like this ??[/url]

move the mouse over the map and all the routes enclosing that point are highlighted in turn. The box on the left shows the aerial photo with the routes marked too. You can zoom in and out, or type the name of a place bottom left to find routes nearby. Hold down the CTRL key to freeze the lists of routes and then click on one to be taken to a detailed 25k:1 map.

As for what they're like, that's harder. If the route is shown at all it's worth doing. Opinions vary so widely it's hard to say anything very useful. Ride it and see what you think 🙂

I find bearings, especially pivot bearings, are a bit like cables - sad people spend far too much time obsessing over them when they should be riding their bikes. The rest of us lube stuff, fit it properly and replace it when it's worn out.

I'm certainly not going to try and correct a troll who doesn't even have a consistent argument and is just trying to use a forum about mountain biking as free publicity.

: P

Pierre

Spend some time finding and fitting the right bearings and you fit less bearings, they also run for longer. How long does it take to strip a bike remove the old bearings, fit the new ones and then build the bike back up and if your doing that say once a year and I'm doing it say once every three.

Which one of us is smarter? Ever heard the saying a stitch in time saves 9, I find people who criticise and judge other harshly to be nothing but complete and utter bankers. If you don't want to join the thread or contribute to the discussion why post? as for being a troll and trying for free publicity.

If I was trying to sell bearings and nothing else would I be wlling to have a go at every gutter snipe, @ss wipe, wonna be expert that cmes along.

Not surprising you won't answer the question considering you can't, probably better if you just throw up a smoke screen and avoid answering it.

My argument has been consistent from the start the only variation on it is in your mind and the minds of fools.

[i]My argument has been consistent[/i][b]ly annoying [/b][i]from the start the only variation on it is in your mind and the minds of fools. [/i]

Fixed that for you Kaesae...
😉

actully [b]kael[/b] I think people are trying to provoke you into your former obscenity as it was much funnier than talking about bearings 🙂

kaesae - Member
Curly68 - Member
You madam are a troll!!!

Why am I a troll? I didn't start a thread extolling virtues of certain types of bearings that I happen to sell.
I asked genuine questions that I would like to know an answer to and I get that response!
Just answer me this then.
If it is dirt and water ingress that causes bearings to fail, then surely it is the sealing in the bearing that must be the cause of the ingress and by removing the seal are you causing more dirt and water to get into the bearing? The seals are pressed into a lip. How do you remove the seals without damaging them?
All I want is an honest answer without any cocky replies please.

So, while we're at it, you've told us you sell cheap caged bearings which you take apart and re-grease with your own magic formula. These bearings are primarily pivot bearings, although you don't ride them yourself.

Given that pivot bearings are mainly load-bearing rather than rotational, the tolerances of the bearings themselves is not an issue - tight tolerances, ceramic bearings etc. are for high speed efficiency - so using bearings with relatively low tolerances is not a huge problem, especially as the bearings don't even make a full rotation, probably not even half.

What puzzles me is why you are trying to convince us that using caged bearings for pivots is a good idea, when caged bearings have fewer balls so the loads are effectively higher on each individual ball. A full complement bearing would share the load over more balls. This would mean that, disregarding all other factors, caged bearings would not be as long-lived as full complement bearings when used for pivots.

Also, others have suggested that the only reason caged bearings are more resilient to dirt and grit is because there is more space between the balls; the grease becomes contaminated with dirt and grit as usual but because there is a higher concentration of grease to balls, the grease effectively harbours the dirt so less comes into contact with the balls. The cages themselves do not prevent dirt coming into contact with the balls, in fact they present more of a consistent surface to the ball which could become contaminated with dirt (compared to an adjacent ball in a full complement bearing). The seals may prevent ingress of dirt and / or water, but you've told us that you replace the original seals, which at best maintains only their original integrity but also carries a risk of damaging the seals (albeit only slightly) when removing and replacing them.

So in simple terms, that's why I don't think you've presented a particularly compelling argument. And also I think I've given a better account of myself than trying to quote anecdotal evidence or data I've gathered myself. And I'm not even a qualified engineer, just an experienced professional bike mechanic with a science degree. I'm sure an actual bearings engineer will be able to provide better scrutiny, and preferably one who's not trying to sell us something.

And "farts with his face?"... please.

: P

Sheldon Brown said full compliment bearings should never go anywhere near a bike...

[i]Sheldon Brown said full compliment bearings should never go anywhere near a bike... [/i]

How about full compl[u][b]e[/b][/u]ment bearings? Or were you just being really nice to your bearings and compl[u][b]i[/b][/u]menting them in the hope that they'd last a bit longer... 😉

You still havnt answered my question .....your research is done where ? You remind me of an mp....only answering the question you can give a smarmy answer to

Pierre

You're making your argument up based on facts I never said, like everyone else on here. Your idea of proving your point is to simply make up what ever you feel like and ignore the facts. Replacing seals? Cages seal bearings from water? the list of nonsense you lot have used to justify your arguments is outrageous. Come up with a proper argument that doesn't involve making stuff up like some 5 year olds.

You asked where I have done my research online, Spoken to countless people for hours on the phone including my suppliers but more importantly for me analyzed every single bearing I've ever removed from a frame and asked the riders as much about their riding and how they service / wash their bikes.

[IMG] [/IMG]

Ok so annecdotal research rather than hard facts ....ill take mr shigleys word on bearing use over yours any day of the week

Kaesae.. going back to your pic of a caged bearing ( a bit late, but I have been working long hours last few days, and missed all this fun ) You could'nt have picked a worse bearing! The ingress of water past the main seal (most common cause of mtb bearing failure I have seen) will have a field day rusting not only the balls and race, but also that steel cage. When that bugger rusts-up, its for good. You could have at least chosen a brass or plastic caged bearing.

As for the cage giiving protection ! if water can get past a tiny gap in a seal, it will have no problem with the larger gaps around the cage.

I think we all agree that removing bearing seals and adding or more grease or reagreasing improves the life of most bearings. But it is not rocket science.

Still waiting kaesae

kaesae, assuming pierre is talking nonsense about you replacing seals, that means then that after having prized the seal off the bearing (thus damaging it as it comes past the lip) to install your magic grease, that you in fact [i]dont[/i] replace it, you leave the bearings open without a seal? Or do you [i]replace[/i] the seal into the bearing (having compromised its effectiveness)?

Please tell me how you have "analysed" every single bearing you have removed? As a former professional materials scientist I'm curious to hear what techniques you deployed.

Perhaps youd have been better off hawking your bearing kit as a freebie to try and generate publicity as you seem to have attended the Superstar Components Customer Service Seminar.

oh right, youve already tried that too

http://www.descent-world.co.uk/2010/03/10/katec-bikes-custom-bearing-kits/

Has that Kona full sus you blagged on here, taking advantage of community spirited goodwill, appeared on ebay yet?

http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/free-kona-stinky-deelux-frame-19-redblack

Can't you read mc? He can tell a bearing's quality by feel!

It's 4-0 to Liverpool at Burnley. Burnley are relegated to the Championship. Elsewhere, Chelsea are 3-0 up against Stoke.

venemous bloodsucking parasites. ..?

I just can't do him justice.

Kaesae wrote,
"You're making your argument up based on facts I never said, like everyone else on here. Your idea of proving your point is to simply make up what ever you feel like and ignore the facts. Replacing seals? Cages seal bearings from water? the list of nonsense you lot have used to justify your arguments is outrageous."

Epic fail boyo, epic fail.

Kaesae, "The cage surrounds the bearing hence the term cage. dirt and water will therefore find it harder to get at the bearings."

Seems like not even you believe your own bullshit, 3 pages on and you've forgotten you ever said it.

gotta say that is an impressive pile of bearings

[img] [/img]

Best get them off yer mum's kitchen floor before they get hoovered up though.

[b]Chelsea 7-0 Stoke.[/b]

Chelsea put seven goals past Stoke, with no reply, in an emphatic win which will surely send out an ominous message to their title rivals Manchester United.

5spot yet again I am forced to ask when I said the cage will give protection from water or dirt. What I in fact said was that water or dirt would first have to get past the cage and that dirt would find it harder to sit up against the actual ball bearings as a result of this.

Rust will damage the bearings we all agree and when it does the bearings will at first have play and then collapse yes? The closer tolerances of the performance bearings mean that this play will be less in proportion to the budget bearings with the same amount of ware and the looser tolerance of budget bearings will cause them to fail much sooner.

As soon as play occurs and because of the rust the actual bearings and races will be damaged. Is all chromium steel the same quality material 5 spot?

As for you minqe chick, the whole point of rubber seals is to be able to remove them. You do not have to damage the seals to remove them unless you have hands like shovels and all the skill and dexterity of an elephant.

The reason people are better buying bearing from someone who knows what they are doing is to avoid the seals being damaged and getting the old grease removed and the right grease for the right application installed.

As for blagged a Kona full sus it has not yet arrived and I paid for it anyway. I will be using the Kona full sus to do a demonstration DVD to show people how to service their Kona's. Further more! Madam what is better that the frame goes to waste or that an actual rider gets use of it?

Lastly northfullofwind. Don't get it what on earht are you trying to say

TV
Why do you think they call them Idiot Boxes?

5spot yet again I am forced to ask when I said the cage will give protection from water or dirt. What I in fact said was that water or dirt would first have to get past the cage and that dirt would find it harder to sit up against the actual ball bearings as a result of this.

AAAGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!

TV
Why do you think they call them Idiot Boxes?

What the hell are you on about now? Jeezus - you are actually mental.

markd

bearings sparky I would think the title of the thread would have given you a hint

I will be using the Kona full sus to do a demonstration DVD to show people how to service their Kona's.

You've already got a dodgy Kona frame for doing vids with though, remember??!

(No apostrophe in Konas)

Kaesae wrote

I find people who criticise and judge other harshly to be nothing but complete and utter bankers...

... every gutter snipe, @ss wipe, wonna be expert that cmes along.

When you getting your bonus?

5spot yet again I am forced to ask when I said the cage will give protection from water or dirt.

Photo of a caged bearing, the surface of the actual balls is covered to a large extent by the cage and of course the races. [b]For water or dirt to get at the balls it has to get past or through the cage[/b].

There. I even put it in bold for you.

On another note, I still don't know if kaesae is a genius, committing what can only be described as the most elaborate troll of all time, or if he is actually certifiably insane.

Well, in another thread, I remember Kesae saying that he'd had some quite debilitating health problems, and that his mental condition had been affected. Maybe people should consider this, and not be quite so mocking. I don't think he's a person who means others malice, and seems to want to be part of the STW community. Why not be a little less antagonistic towards him?

Give the guy a break. There's been quite a bit of nastiness towards him. I think it's out of order.

I know several people who have had mental problems, it didn't mean they suddenly got a license to be a massive douche.

kaesae, any reason why all your responses have to include personal abuse? I can and do remove and reuse bearing seals on old, worn and contaminated where I am just trying to eke a little etra life out of it. I wouldnt do it to a new bearing.

From
http://www.bocabearings.com/main1.aspx?p=help#five

Q: Should I remove the shields or seals from my bearings?

A: If your Front bearing has two rubber seals you should not remove them

Q: How do I remove my shields or seals?

A: ...In most cases the rubber cannot be re-used.

So as that lunatic Pierre and I asked, are you replacing your bearing seals?

And yes you did pay for the frame, offering a paltry 25 quid if I recall correctly to ensure you gazumped any of the other forum members who asked for it. Given you've only ever posted on STW to defend the provenance of the frames you sell on ebay, to plug your bearing business and to troll I didnt think you getting that frame followed any karma or natural justice.

Five pages! Still hasn't answered any of my questions yet either. I was all for giving him the benefit of doubt and had a giggle at some of his replies but my word, this guy is a jerk of tremendous proportions.
Not a very good advert for Katec at all. Thought he could learn something from some of these replies but no, he knows it all already!
I used to be a MX race technician for Kawasaki and Suzuki here and abroad and if there are any places that bearings get a harder work out, then I have yet to find it. They go through such loads from every angle, sand, mud, jet wash etc.
A bike was stripped down after every meeting and inspected and parts replaced when needed or not. I have seen a few bearings broken etc so know a little about what I talk about but apparently after 20 years of doing it, I know nothing according to this idiot!

1. Curly68
Ever seen a MX bike rider with water up to their ears? I once watched my mate pedal out into the ocean until the water was up to his chin. Laughed so hard I had stains on my pants, until I got home that is. Tell me! what would happen to a modern combustion engine if it was say under water and do they make underwater combustion engines? GENIUS!!!

Bottom of page 4 this thread exhibit A
http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bearing-bearings-bearings-who-thinks-they-know-the-score/page/4

yet again MR barns I thank you for the photos.

You know your sh1t curly68 I rest my case!

kaesae - Member

...my mate

Don't believe you.

mr_mills

Not only am I colourful a superb bike mechanic and an expert at getting the job done. I also have loads of stuff to give away, like the bolts and chain device and gear cable I forked out earlier, as well as three hours of free work.

kaesae - I used to suspect that you were an idiot, thank you for confirming my suspicion.

kaesae - Member

mr_mills

Not only am I colourful a superb bike mechanic and an expert at getting the job done. I also have loads of stuff to give away, like the bolts and chain device and gear cable I forked out earlier, as well as three hours of free work.

What the smeg has that got to do with ANYTHING?!

You're weird.

So you still can't answer my questions?
How do you remove the seals without damaging them? Do you fit new seals once you have filled with your grease?
Just want ANSWERS not some numpty condecending response.

kaesae

Tell me! what would happen to a modern combustion engine if it was say under water and do they make underwater combustion engines? GENIUS!!!

What's that go to do with anything? Where on a combustion engine are ball bearings used?

Kaesae I'm just interested to know if you're findings are anecdotal or if you have hard proof backed up by facts on the properties and uses of different types of bearing? Also was you're research done independently or did you just use the internet and riders as a frame of reference?
It's a serious question and I'm not trolling, but most bearing manufacturers recommend you do not take the seals off in case you damage them, and they are not strictly removable items.

Have you're bearings been lab tested against those that aren't as good e.g. the max complement enduro bearings etc?

I look forward to your reply!

Jay

YES!!

C0ckhead has named me in a tag! Get in!!!

Jay - already asked that question.....internet research(oxymoron no?) and peoples opinion .....completely non research

Biscuit Powered - Member
kaesae
Tell me! what would happen to a modern combustion engine if it was say under water and do they make underwater combustion engines? GENIUS!!!
What's that go to do with anything? Where on a combustion engine are ball bearings used?

I hope he was referring to main bearings at each end of the crank, then you have bearings supporting clutch shaft, output shaft, in fact there are quite a few! And I have worked on engines that have been flooded Kaesae.

this thread is like picking at a scab. It has a horrible fascination.

[img] [/img]

How old are you ? What qualifications do you have to tell us about bearings ?

[i]What qualifications do you have to tell us about bearings ? [/i]

Come on Terry, pay attention. That pile of bearings on the floor in the pics way back ^^
He's felt them all therefore he's an Expert and we must bow to his knowledge and wisdom.

Or we could just laugh at him for not having much of a life. You choose. 😉

wow after all this im glad my bike has zerk fittings 😉

firestarter - Member

wow after all this im glad my bike has zerk fittings

Yes but are you using the right sort of grease?

Only one genius on here can answer that....

Don't upset him too much.

Just a gentle turning of the key every now and again should be enough to get some more of the rambling madmans thoughts. 😀

😆

I'd love to follow this thread some more but I have to go and push a rusty old frayed gear cable through my scrotum.

the original 'cheap' bearings in my commencal have finally after 2.5 years given up the ghost and i need new

any chance of a freebie?

jasonm945

there is only one test, how long they last.

Curly68

I was expecting you geniuses to realize that working on motor bikes and working on mountain bikes is two different things. Saying bearing ware on motor bikes and mountain bikes is the same thing is just not true.

iain1775

email me well discuss it.

Holy cow, this thing is still going... well done bassspine, that xkcd frame came to mind when I wrote my long ranty answer.

Now, I'm a scientist first; I think if something is trustworthy then it is objectively verifiable and repeatable. This is why I completely distrust anecdotal evidence, especially from people trying to sell something. Ben Goldacre's excellent book "Bad Science" gives a great account of this that's accessible to anyone even with no knowledge of scientific principles.

I don't claim to be an expert. I'm pretty good at what I do, admittedly only by the testimonies of my customers, but if I'm wrong about something then I'd rather use it as a learning experience than dig in and personally attack my critics. But I would say I've got a modicum of common sense and am able to apply what learning and experience I have in a practical way to new problems.

...which is why I, and curly68 who clearly knows a lot about motocross bikes (whose technology has a heavy cross-over with mountain bikes), and cynic-al, and probably many others, are still waiting for something concrete, methodically explained, or even just vaguely intelligible, by way of an explanation why kaesae think he "knows the score" about bearings.

: P

Let me state my outrageous claims again. Full caged performance bearings with the original grease and the seals removed without damaging them, obviously munqechick. Then expensive water proof grease fitted then the seals refitted will outlast generic bearings or the standard industry bearings. They will also in my opinion outlast Enduro and Enduro max bearings as well as out perform them.

My evidence and the reason for making these idiotic claims. Simple INA and SKF and all other performance bearings are of superior quality to generic bearings. There performance and durability are second to none. To have these bearings altered to be specific to being used outdoors and in MTB applications is a good thing. I am arguing that they are the best bearings to be used in your bikes.

Those of you that listen will save money and time, you will also have a slight performance increase on your back ends action. Just like all the race teams that run them enjoy. Intense, Specialized, Giant to name but a few.

Those of you that simply cannot hear what I'm saying, the thought of you replacing your bearings all the time and running generic bearings in your bikes?

Keep up the good work, I do enjoy a laugh and there's nothing like self righteous stupidity to cheer me right up!

Evidence? the longest lasting best performing bearings in the world but they aren't any good for MTB pivot points?

As I have said and will no doubt say again.

GENIUS!!!

@

@

@

Hold on... just checking something here, so you supply bearings to those race teams you mention?

I'm really surprised that people aren't buying your bearings & throwing them in the bin just to leave you negative feedback.

^ I laughed

New levels of silly.......you make superstar look like customer service kings .......

You still have not provided us with 1 single hard tried and tested fact - that is fact as - not your opinion/guess/assumption......

"you will also have a slight performance increase "

Wa **** Hooo.

I just love the fact the mods, while knowing this is a commerce thread, are leaving it for the pure comedy value.

Does Kaesae only post at weekends?

I'm guessing he's 13 years old..
OR
an unhinged STW regular using a different name to conduct binge drinking induced psychotic episodes of a weekend..

Of course I only post at the weekends I'm a busy guy. I do however like a good laugh and poking you monkey all be it with a digital stick is very funny.

The weekends for me are for sillyness, as for super star the guys accomplished more in a few years that you lot will in your entire lives. Me I judge people on what they can do not if a bunch of returds that's retards and turds think of them.

The questions about me not actually answering the questions you put forward has been raised.

So here is your answers, How long is this thread and how funny is it?

Even if I did answer and provide evidence you would simply go off and find other evidence that contradicts it, I would add more and the cycle would continue.

If on the other hand you lot found evidence that supports what I'm saying you would simply ignore it, why? because for you this isn't about proving a point it's about being right, insecurity is like that.

Seen it all too many times on here and in modern life in general, nothing gets done and that's not the way I do things.

You have asked question and I have answered with questions of my own, why? Simple really, you can go and research and verify it for yourselves. Rather than argue you can simply get what you need and understand the situation.

1) The bearings I'm suggesting people use are the best quality in the world, they are the best performing and longest lasting aka durable, SKF and INA. You ask me to prove the fact? should I also prove that water is wet and that a wheel is round?

2) SKF or INA which I consider to be performance bearings, that are caged are better that full compliment bearings by Enduro max or any lesser brand. Giant, Specialized and Stendec who maintain Intense’s race team all run them. Why not contact them and ask them if this is the case. Verify the facts for yourselves and if you have any other questions ask them those as well.

3) Lastly you are quite right they have let this thread run, because it doesn't break any rules and is top class entertainment. Bottom line after 2 years of looking into what's happening I have the best bearing kits in the industry, pound for pound for the money.

What have you got?
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Hi Kael, can I just clarify with you what the difference between the "original grease" in sealed bearings and the "expensive water proof grease" is. I assume there is some variation in polymer structure or something, is this your own recipe or is it an off the shelf grease. I'm also a bit confused, isn't all grease water proof?

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No original grease for most bearing is specific to them rotating, SLR or something similar not all that water proof at all and they only put 25% to 35% grease in there so a lot of space for water and dirt.

Better not leave any room for interpretation of that or we will simply get the interpretation of fools. By rotational grease I mean the greases primary characteristic. All grease buy it's mature is water proof however not all grease is highly water proof or will be thin enough to allow the bearings to rotate as freely as possible.

ah ok, so the original grease itself IS waterproof but the bearing unit is not completely filled allowing dirt to ingress. I understood that, so why not fill the unit completely with original grease. What is the difference between "original grease" and expensive grease"?

It costs more? In my experience, making sure the bearings are correctly packed is worth more than any exotic grease. I'd rather use cheap grease and do the job right than do a half-arsed job with something expensive. Course, I guess you could do both.

Not quite some of the grease would wash out quite quickly and all manufacturers and distributors run the greases they want, so using an expensive grease that has good resistance to water and dirt but also allows the bearings to rotate as freely as possible is vital. Also greases have different durations on their longevity. To get all the characteristics needed for the grease to be specific or more suited to the MTB applications you really have to pay for expensive grease.

Saying that the grease I run is £80 for 4kg at trade and does 1000’s of bearings so the cost isn’t all that much more considering the gains.

I looked at loads of greases and their viscosity and characteristics. To get a grease that last years and is water or dirt resistant but also has good rotational properties to compensate for the 100% pregreasing was very tricky.

As for removing the seals and the old grease or reconditioning the bearing for MTB use. You can only do it on certain bearing brands, so yes you need to do the job right which is why I disagree that simply removing the seals and stuffing them with grease is the best option.

Bottom line is if I can do what I've done with almost no money why can the manufacturers and distributers not?

Sorry I have to go and get to work a lot of people rely on what I do to get out biking.

Maybe we could chat via email. Feel free to give me a shout.

Kaesae You should go on Dragons Den, you're bound to win the judges over!!!

My stuff is best cos I say it is!

I'm in.

Jay

Even if I did answer and provide evidence you would simply go off and find other evidence that contradicts it

Classic! So you don't want to provide any evidence because you know we will disprove it? You should be a scientist!

That's awesome. I can't wait till I buy something from my LBS and he says the same thing...

LBS: "Buy my stuff."

Me: "Why, is it good?"

LBS: "Yeah, it's better than the standard stuff."

Me: "How's that then?"

LBS: "You'll have to go and find out for yourself."

Has anyone told shimano/giant/specialized et al about this marketing strategy?

LBS: "Yeah, it's better than the standard stuff."

Me: "How's that then?"

LBS: "You'll have to go and find out for yourself."

...and don't bother coming back with evidence that proves me wrong because I'll argue with you FOR EVER!!

Jamie - Member

I just love the fact the mods, while knowing this is a commerce thread, are leaving it for the pure comedy value.

Not [i]entirely[/i] commercial, [url= http://cofast.co.uk/ ]my loooooovely helpful and very very local bearing supplier[/url] has made lots of money out of me.... thanks to the wizzdom of this thread I can now sleep better knowing the eye-watering money i spent on 8 INA bearings and rock'n'roll grease was all worth it. What I am taking away from this thread is:

-don't buy them one ebay cos they might be 'falsies'.
-so do buy the best you can afford from somewhere trustworthy.
-fill them with expensive grease.

Not particularly bothered about buying from k-tec as I can get a ruler out, measure what i want, pick up the phone or go for a walk there, have a conversation someone about bearings and pick them up the next afternoon. Yay!

You want proof I state again. The length of time that they last!

If performance bearings last longer and feel better as in the bike performs better that is all the proof I need.

You're also missing the most important point, I don't care about money. When I say I hope every single idiot in the world doesn't buy my bearings. I really do mean it.

Next time you change your bearings remember these words.

Fuzzy Wuzzy is a woman.