It’s not easy being Singletrack. Please help.

Wow. That was fun catching up.

Nothing to say on the subs model or the rights and wrongs of free members / whether their opinion is more or less valuable because they haven’t subscribed.

More on the subject of advice, which I’ve fallen foul of in the past and i don’t think we do well on here – how many threads have their been where ‘give me some advice on….. rapidly turns into NO NOT THAT ADVICE!!!!

Advice is like an unsolicited present.

The receiver should thank the giver for it and then decide what to do with it; maybe it’ll take pride of place on the sideboard, maybe it’ll be in Oxfam before the week’s out.

The giver needs to accept that too. Just because someone chooses to ignore, or explain why the advice doesn’t fit with their plan, shouldn’t be taken as offence. Once the advice is given it belongs to them to do with what they want.

There are some threads / posters that i won’t engage on now because advice given freely and in good faith has been rejected in ways that I find a little rude. I accept that they don’t want the advice, no point keep popping back up and repeating it.

exactly why I unsubscribed 12 months ago

Funnily enough, I’m the opposite. My sub ended and I tried to stay away, couldn’t so took up the half price offer. A nice compromise I thought. Back to the topic and on the strength of some of the above posts, I think if I were Mark I’d just close the forum down and have done with it.

Local papers have gone as they were full of rubbish anyway.

Bit of a tangent, but a lot of local newspapers used to be really good.

But the internet took all the classifieds and most of the small business advertising, and they went from being well-staffed with low-paid journalists in the local area to poorly staffed with low-paid journalists in an “editorial hub” 50 miles away.

And they are much thinner because of the lack of ads.

And their websites are a nightmare of intrusive and annoying adverts.

Maybe there’s a parallel with STW there, but I’m not gonna force it.

It’s becoming a circular debate (punctuated by off topic rants and abusive exchanges), and one which I respectfully left 4 pages ago.

And yet here you still are. The only reason it’s a circular debate is because people such as yourself keep posting the same arguments again and again even though they’ve already been refuted or rejected as being unworkable or directly damaging to the business that runs this forum. I’m sorry that you are offended by people disagreeing with you, but there really has been no ‘pile-on’ and there really isn’t any anti-free member clique or movement on here. All there is is people openly expressing their views, and just like in real life, some of us do that more directly than others.

Now, do you have a new point to make about subscriptions and how the magazine can improve it’s financial health? If so please make it, but be prepared for some people to disagree with it.

because advice given freely and in good faith has been rejected in ways that I find a little rude.

So you’re complaining because some of us aren’t polite enough? If I was to turn that around I could easily argue that those of us who haven’t had the education and upbringing to be so eloquent and charming in putting across our arguments could be excluded from contributing. I’m not going to argue that though because I’m perfectly capable of standing up for myself and not being offended at having my views challenged.

those saying “print is dead” are pretty clueless IMO, yeah the heyday might be over but you’ve only got to look at the shelves in any newsagents or supermarket to see rows & rows of magazines.

My dad still buys “Railway Modeller” every month, they have a circulation of almost 29k including 12k subscribers! And I don’t think it’s necessarily that everyone who’s into it is tech-illiterate either, as YouTube etc is massive and there are lots of very popular forums.

I think there is a distinct difference in attitude though; your average model train enthusiast actually enjoys spending money on magazines/books, local shows, paying a bit more to support local model shop/small businesses etc whereas a lot of MTBers I encounter (no-one on here, of course 😉) is as tight as a gnat’s chuff, won’t pay for anything unless there’s a gun to their head & only buys the cheapest grey-imports off of big online sellers, as for them all they do is ride (solo) and cannot see/appreciate the “community” aspect of the hobby 🤔

Unfortunately you are attributing your second quote to me, but it is not something that I wrote. Perhaps take that up with the original author.

I was replying to theotherjonv. By quoting the point it should be pretty obvious that I’m responding to that point and hence to the person who posted it. It is possible you know to respond to multiple points and posters in one post. 🙂

so please don’t take offence.

I don’t take offence at anything on here. Well there was one time I did, but that involved accusations of being a nazi sympathiser. Anything else though is fair game.

My sincere apologies Daz. It wasn’t obvious to me. Thanks for clarifying.

Unfortunately this thread, like so many on here, has descended from a sensible debate and discussion on a topic to a rant fest and become increasingly unpleasant in tone. Im not sure this reflects to well on the ‘community’ most are passionate about. Im completely bemused as to how the last 3 or 4 pages are meant to help broaden that community

because advice given freely and in good faith has been rejected in ways that I find a little rude.

So you’re complaining because some of us aren’t polite enough? If I was to turn that around I could easily argue that those of us who haven’t had the education and upbringing to be so eloquent and charming in putting across our arguments could be excluded from contributing. I’m not going to argue that though because I’m perfectly capable of standing up for myself and not being offended at having my views challenged.

No, just making the point that having given the advice and had it rejected, rather than particularly take offence and / or keep going back and making the point over and over again I should accept they don’t want it. As indeed I said

The giver needs to accept that too. Just because someone chooses to ignore, or explain why the advice doesn’t fit with their plan, shouldn’t be taken as offence. Once the advice is given it belongs to them to do with what they want.

As regards ‘not being polite enough’. What i wrote was

There are some threads / posters that i won’t engage on now because advice given freely and in good faith has been rejected in ways that I find a little rude. I accept that they don’t want the advice, no point keep popping back up and repeating it.

What’s not clear from “some threads / posters” is that it’s 98% threads that i’m just out of now because it’s clear my advice isn’t wanted; and very few actual posters that i won’t engage with. There are a couple though.

Back to the present analogy – the receiver that says ‘thanks, but it doesn’t really fit with my decor, would you mind if i took it back and swapped for something else’ vs ‘Why the **** have you bought me this. What a hideous thing!’ – you don’t need to be eloquent and charming to understand why the second response makes me unwilling to buy you another present.

Who wants to be associated with all that shit?

That probably explains why Mark doesn’t want STW to be a forum-oriented business. Lots of people on this thread seem to have a problem with that though. 🤷‍♂️

I feel for Mark because in his position I’d want to chuck the forum in a skip and walk away but he can’t, his business is tied to it.

Most jobs are like that – they’d be great if it weren’t for the pesky customers! 🙂

I dont like the begging letters that seem all too frequent these days.

We’re back to the Guardian and Wikipedia again. 😉

One thing that I don’t think has been mentioned… if people really want the forum/website to be more “transactional” and for there to be fewer requests for voluntary financial “support” (optional subscribing, donations, overpaying, using the shop)… do you want more content locked away and some forum functionality to be reduced for those that do not pay? The “everyone can use this freely” approach and the requests for voluntary support tend to go hand in hand.

The Guardian relied on print and print is dead.

You should visit a newsagent or bookstore, you might be surprised by what you find….

I dont like the begging letters that seem all too frequent these days.

+1 to what Kelvin says. I get asked by the guardian for money on a daily basis. It even reminds me how many articles I’ve read (too many!) for free. Given people moan on here about the odd Ad or clicking the accept cookies button, and how they don’t like being guilt-tripped about being free users, I doubt they’d take too kindly to being repeatedly asked for money like you get on the guardian and wikipedia.

It sounds like its all going to fold at any minute which makes me worried. it makes me think its not sustainable and the people running it are just sitting it out until they can fold it / sell it and retire.

Then don’t make assumptions and instead take what Mark says at face value. He’s been very clear why he’s pushing for more income, and it’s not to prevent anything folding or to enable any retirements. People may criticise various things about STW, but a lack of honesty and transparency from the people running the business is not one of them.

Here’s an idea that hasn’t been mentioned (not here, although it has in the past). The climbers (and many non-climbers) on here will be aware of https://www.ukclimbing.com . Now I’m not sure where it gets it’s money from (it’s not subscriptions), but it seems to me that it’s a good model for services that STW could perhaps provide. It has a route database, logbooks with practical feedback from climbers about how hard a climb is or reviews about a particular crag or location, and also an image gallery which can act as inspiration or give you an idea of what the climbing is like.

I know there are other websites such as trailforks doing similar for mountain biking, but they don’t do it very well IMO and have struggled to gain much traction in the UK. Of course there’s the ‘footpath problem’ to consider but there seems to be potential given STW’s user base. So my question would be how many people here would use such a service and perhaps even pay for it?

Now I’m not sure where it gets it’s money from (it’s not subscriptions)

They do have their supporters/subscription option neither of which hides adverts.
One which gives a couple more forum options at 20 quid
Second is that plus the rockfax digital subscription.

Their advertising model is very focussed though from outdoor companies rather than generic stuff.

When all is said and done, we can debate channel, media, format, the forum, the classifieds blah blah blah. What really matters is whether you are producing content in whatever format you see fit that enough people want to pay for whether through donation, subscription, luncheon vouchers, PayPal, whatever. Not a pejorative statement but certainly something that a few people have questioned (and continue to do so as we fast approach page 11!).

The trails are full of middle aged blokes who should know better stealing a crafty couple of hours away from the stresses of family, work, life etc. They ain’t backpacking across the Himalayas and brewing coffee up K2 every Sunday morning. I don’t know what it is, but produce something that they want. I am sure your revenue issues will be solved! My God, it’s so obvious and simple. Why didn’t anybody else think of that?!!!! 😉

@ solarider, Singletrack have a YT channel with nearly 700 videos, it’s not difficult to search for this instead of incessantly banging away the same points. You make interesting observations but after a while the helpfulness erodes and it’s depressing to read.

And those newsagents and bookshops full of stock?

Book sales are actually doing rather well…..

Print Book Sales Statistics