That is odd. Presume there would be a dummy one on the other side to at least give the same spacing.

I’m sure there must be a dummy one – would be insane to be otherwise and there seem to be lots of pictures of pairs.

The dual sided mode presumably needs one to be a slave to the other and single link to the head unit – so a fair amount more development to support it.

Here you go :

All I know is that my knees would not be happy with the feet forced outboard so far!

How much wider are MTB cranks than Roadie ones? Cranks on the XC bike def feel a good bit wider but perception is often way off. Wasn’t Cav running spacers on his pedals to make the Q factor wider and increase power output?

No way I’d be taking a punt on this but that’s just me. There’s a comment on DC Rainmaker about it, they’ve been in contact with him but they’ve yet to meet and he won’t do a post about it ’till he sees a physical product.

Ya, custom pedals though, 2cm wider.

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/article/pro-bike-mark-cavendishs-htc-specialized-mclaren-venge-30158/

Road seem to be around 155mm, MTB around 166-169mm. I think road cranks go as low as 145mm and I know I’ve had old style XT in the past that were 180mm although that is fat bike territory nowadays.

How much wider are MTB cranks than Roadie ones?

My XTR 970 cranks always feel wide when I switch to them from road riding so I did a quick check on the difference on mine. 169 for the XTR cranks, 144 for my Campag road cranks.

I notice the difference when I switch, and I would guess the pedals increase the delta over and above the basic 25mm, but my legs don’t seem to have dropped off as a result 🙂

Still sceptical but backed this on the basis of curiosity and price …

Don’t some pedal manufacturers do different axle lengths?

Anyway I’m surprised more isn’t made of Q factor in things like bike fits. I’m sure current “standards” are a compromise and not a case of one size fits all.

Don’t some pedal manufacturers do different axle lengths?

Only really aftermarket Crank Brothers axles for MTB, maybe one or two on the road side too. You do get a little bit of adjustment with the cleats too with most pedals.

Anyway I’m surprised more isn’t made of Q factor in things like bike fits.

It usually is accounted for and is quite a common thing to target during a fit. The problem comes from people’s perceptions. Roadies very often just want the very narrowest possible, just because they heard once that narrower is more efficient. Conversely lots of MTB riders either think that Q-Factor is a made up thing to sell them different cranks or they will lose some stability from having a narrower base. The other difficulty is that is isn’t so straight forward to know what to recommend for an individual without trial and error- there isn’t a magic formula (like all of fitting really!). You are also limited by frame design on a bike like a MTB which limits the scope of adjusting the Q-Factor

I notice the difference when I switch, and I would guess the pedals increase the delta over and above the basic 25mm, but my legs don’t seem to have dropped off as a result

Increase the Q-Factor a further 25mm from the XTR cranks and I’m almost certain you’ll notice a difference for the worse. Most people can tolerate 170mm and narrower but any wider is where a lot of people (assuming average proportions) seem to start getting knee pain etc. Narrower seems fine but going wider seems to be an issue. You may also have the cleats set up to be account for the difference between the two sets of cranks???

Increase the Q-Factor a further 25mm from the XTR cranks and I’m almost certain you’ll notice a difference for the worse

Sure, and I’d expect it. I was meaning more that I had wiggle room between there and my road cranks plus cleat adjustment to make the Limits not completely barking mad for the road bike.

But how thick is the LIMITS? 15mm each I think. That put your super narrow 145mm road crank and the Q-factor ends up wider than a MTB crank, more towards a fat bike Q-Factor. Do-able but Shimano road are 155mm starting Q-Factor so it limits the cranks you’d want to be using these with

Don’t some pedal manufacturers do different axle lengths?

Dura-Ace 9000 come in a +4mm model

2nd XTR stages gone back due to battery issues & erratic power readings. Not sure if its an XTR problem as both other stages cranks (ultegra’s) have been no problem ?

Dcrainmaker comments on Limits. Pretty much my thoughts too! The flexible funding thing is a bit worrying, they get the money even if they don’t reach their targets.

Interesting! Not so much about Limits but rather what we’ll be seeing in 6-12-18 months time from the players already in the market, with that I think I’ll delay my MTB power meter wants for the Summer…

Prices are always going to be coming down, and new players are always going to be coming into the market. There’s always a good argument for waiting another 6 months, but then you miss out on the benefits of having a PM for 6 months.

Think the main take away from that article is that power meters are hard to get to market. Remember the release of the Vector being almost there for about two years! I’d say it’s not even worth considering unless there’s a pre-production model in the hands of independent testers / reviewers.

2nd XTR stages gone back due to battery issues & erratic power readings. Not sure if its an XTR problem as both other stages cranks (ultegra’s) have been no problem ?

Wouldn’t like to use Stages on MTB. The battery lid on mine breaks a tab every time I open it – a flying rock would probably finish it off altogether!

I’ll say again, I’ve been very happy with Stages on the MTB. No issues.

prices are deffo on the down and I’m almost at the point of getting something. I dont really want to wait another year, I want to see the numbers for this year.

it also seems to me that there isnt much a second hand market for powermeters (its not something like wheels), I suspect because the percentage of riders with then is relatively small and the products are still pretty new. Also with the amount of issue people seem to have they are going to buy new for the warranty.

I suspect because the percentage of riders with then is relatively small and the products are still pretty new

I think this is the case. Also that if someone bought even something on the cheaper end like Stages a year ago then you can buy them new from the EU for half what they probably paid in the first place. Similarly, SRM and P2M do come up for sale but people seem to want unreasonably high prices for these so it makes more sense to buy new! Another thing about the decreasing prices is that having paid just over £400 for my Stages for example, if I ever did decide to swap then I’d rather keep it as a 2nd PM, than sell for £200.

just over 400 quid for a stages?
do tell sir, do tell!

From 2 pages back 😀

Powermeter24, Stages SRAM X9, £420 to be exact when they had an extra 10 or 20% off across all PM’s. They are £489 at the moment but it is worth keeping an eye the EUR exchange rate. The DS crank is cheap to pick up on ebay as people often swap them out for fancier cranks on new bikes. Think I paid less that £50 so it was around £470 all in.

Prices are always going to be coming down, and new players are always going to be coming into the market. There’s always a good argument for waiting another 6 months, but then you miss out on the benefits of having a PM for 6 months.

Ya, it’s a good point and one I’ve made before, thing is though I’ve only got 2 more MTB races that I plan on doing this year and they’re in the next 3 weeks before I’ll try and do some road racing instead of just thinking about it…XC bike is likely to get left for 6 months!

This Limits thing won’t work with any of the new pedals that use an allen key in the back rather than a pedal spanner. To my knowledge that is all newer shimano models but may be more, I only use shimano pedals.

Never had battery cover issues with XTR stages tabs are always ok dunno what it is TBH ?

Yes saw that, I really meant pro peloton spy shots.

Any chance that Shimano just acquire someone like Pioneer and build on an existing platform?

The only reason this crossed my mind is that there are some similarities I guess in design to what little we’ve seen of the Shimano PM, the big Shimano sponsored teams like G-A seem to be on Pioneer and the analysis used on the Pioneer computers is almost identical to the GUI and graphics of the new Shimano static bike fitting software???

Edit: Just seen references to Pioneer in the earlier linked article… but nevertheless, the similarities suggest acquisition and modification perhaps????

This Limits thing won’t work with any of the new pedals that use an allen key in the back rather than a pedal spanner. To my knowledge that is all newer shimano models but may be more, I only use shimano pedals.

On their website they have a pic installing a Dura Ace 9000 pedal. So im guessing the hole on the other side is big enough to fit a hex key.

2x(+15mm minimum) Q-Factor on either side and a plan to bring it to market in just 7 months all via crowd funding…. what could go wrong? The guy only had the idea last year and it’ll be for sale at the start of next year! The hex key fitting of pedals is the least of their worries!

Firmware and app upgrades released today for Stages. Battery issues are one of the things it targets (though reads like a subtle attack on affected users). Will try it tomorrow, though my current problem is more physical. Having fitted an upgraded battery cover and seal, the PM appears to cut out after hitting rough tarmac. As if the cover isn’t pressing hard enough on the battery. Wrapping some electrical tape tightly around it seems to stop it cutting out, but looks like time to send it back.

This latter improvement addresses battery performance issues documented in the field.

“While we cannot personally verify the quality of a rider installed replacement battery, this latest firmware revision directly addresses the issue of random premature battery failure or draining that a small percentage of our customers have experienced and are vocal about,” said Pat Warner, Stages Cycling’s senior vice president. “With this new firmware we’re also gaining 10-percent more battery life in the unaffected meters, so it’s a big win for us all around.”

Update came too late for me. I has 3 Stages between October and March and decided to try something else. Went for the Quarq Riken R and it’s been fine so far. Still using the battery supplied with the crankset after 3 weeks which compared to the Stages is a revelation.

Vector’s been on the same battery since November. Gets used a few times each week. Not given me any issues. Been pretty impressed with it.

P2M still on it’s original battery from early last year, though that doesn’t get used much. Have had the occasional drop out when using it, but then the HR goes too, the Garmin seems to lose all ANT+ comms for about a minute, then it all comes back. Only seems to happen when using the P2M which is a bit odd.

The old PowerTap on the turbo bike just keeps on going. Gets used a lot. Maybe a battery change once a year. The bearings are knackered but I’m a bit reluctant to mess with it.

The firmware news is particularly timely as my XTR stages is in it’s box about to be sent back. Will try it once more.

Every time the battery dies I leave the crank to air in a warm place for 24hrs then reassemble with care (all tabs present, grease on gasket etc). Last time the battery lasted 3 days 🙁 allways seems to cut out mid way through an XC training session when I particularly want power readings!

2x(+15mm minimum) Q-Factor on either side and a plan to bring it to market in just 7 months all via crowd funding…. what could go wrong?

Interesting to see the level of funding they’ve managed though! 26 days still to run and $172k against a target of $100k.

Well I guess it shows the market is definitely there for cheap PMs if people are willing to risk a punt on this!

That’s rather mad isn’t it! I’m amazed they’ve managed that much, it’ll certainly be interesting to watch. Shall we have a sweepstake for how many months it runs over?

15! 😛

I wonder if we could/should get the thread title changed…

Have to wonder if the extra cash may well help them with the timescales. If I’ve understood correctly they do have a product insofar as they make a power meter for a static bike – it’s just (and I don’t use that lightly!) about converting that to a smaller form.

Just seems that bringing a reliable PM to market takes a long time. Garmin brought a pretty much finished product in the Vector and still took years to bring it to market, suspect with a much bigger budget that Limits too! And Stages still don’t seem to have a reliable product a few years after release.

Got replacement XTR back other day updated firmware not ridden it yet though. Gonna update other cranks see if I get any improvement but never had problem with them just the XTR.