The Trainerroad podcast backs up my personal experience- if you take care of cooling (mahoosive fans) and motivation (Zwift 😉 ) then there is no reason other than practice that your indoor and outdoor performances should differ.

batteries off Amazon will be fake surely? been another thread on it here

then there is no reason other than practice that your indoor and outdoor performances should differ.

This is a good article outlining some of the issues…
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.co.uk/2009/01/turbocharged-training.html

Discussed elsewhere on this forum but there is the obvious difference as to why they differ. Turbo is a steady effort, outdoor is highly variable effort. You can do things to approximate it on the turbo, get a controlled turbo, or do highly variable over/under sessions, but it’s not the same. I’m down a fair few watts down on my turbo 20MP when riding outdoors. Doing a turbo test I can push an optimal gear, optimal cadence, steady effort, good position for pushing on the pedals and breathing. As soon as you add some variability, changes of gear, cadence, wind, rolling terrain, getting aero, the avg power drops. On the TT bike even more so as breathing and position for power are compromised for aero gains. I’m quite surprised when I hear of people who put out more power riding outdoors, seems odd to me, but then some people deal with the variability a lot better than others or maybe are more motivated.

batteries off Amazon will be fake surely? been another thread on it here

Mine came in proper panasonic packaging and had over 200 positive reviews. However in 6 months time when its time to change Ill let you know.

MrBlobby- I was more talking physiologically. 250w indoors or out on the same power meter should have the same cost to your body. Whether you can get two rides to match is a bit of a different point with the obvious challenges you mention.

Crosshair, it’s not though. Maybe one for the next Sunday ride 🙂

I mean as a snapshot in time- not the average for the ride. The more variables you introduce, the less comparable the results yes- but that just means the outdoor number is likely to be the ‘wrong’ one- high or low.

TiRed for example, wants to get a number he can use for pacing- often on the same circuit, so tests outdoors where the variables, whilst huge, are nevertheless consistent.

For setting FTP based training zones manually, or automatically via Zwift workout sliders or Trainerroad however, the number required needs to be as noise free as possible.

We could go on and on in this section and try to dissect every little variable that could lead to a difference in test results, but ultimately I think it’s better to end this post simply: Because there are less variables to consider, assessing your FTP inside will provide more sound data, i.e. accurate assessment results, than what you’ll get outside. What’s more, because there are so many variables and differences to consider between the two approaches, you simply cannot compare your test data from an outdoor test to your test data from an indoor test, and vice versa.

FTP Testing: Outdoors vs. Indoors

But the differences are not- with practice- physiological 😉

Interesting stuff – sounds like I need to start putting my back into the turbo 🙂 tbh I think the difference is too big to put down to differing efforts, motivation etc, although maybe another fan might be significant (I use one, not placed with particular care).
I did revolver the other night ont turbo and was pretty folded – no way on earth is there an untapped 15% hiding away in there.

I’m pretty similar I think. Just before my last surgery I did a two hour ride outside, with a normalised power about 5% higher than my indoor FTP. I was trying reasonably hard but was by no means completely spent when I finished. Of course NP doesn’t perfectly do what it aims to, but I’m pretty sure that I could have done an outdoor test that day and smashed my indoor FTP.

I am a sweaty old sweater though, and think that I suffer in heat. I suspect that for me it’s a combination of cooling and micro-rests that makes outdoors easier.

Whilst one does need to do some extra work outdoors (e.g with core muscles), I think that’s not a massive amount on the road. I suspect that the level of trainedness is a factor in how much of a factor this is. I’m relatively untrained, so I suspect that the ability of my specific cycling (i.e leg) muscles to deliver work might be more of a limiter than my body’s overall ability to mobilise energy. So using core muscles a bit doesn’t cost me as much as I gain from better cooling and micro rests. I am obviously breathing hard, but my legs are definitely a limiting factor in an FTP test. Maybe someone like mrblobby is butting up against the limits of the total work rate that his system can deliver, so energy wasted keeping him upright and wiggling round pot holes is a more noticeable cost?

I have also heard speculation that the type / quality of trainer might slightly affect this too. A bit more inertia and ‘road feel’ might be a bit gentler on the legs and. I can’t remember where I heard that though – might have been someone selling expensive trainers. 🙂

Gray, that last bit is mostly what I was going to say but isn’t that relevant to the PM thread. Turbo properties are a big factor in how much power you can put out. It’s a bit like riding on the flat vs riding a hill. The feel is different, the torque pattern around the pedal stoke is different so you work muscles and firing patterns differently. And one may be more optimal for you than the other in terms of making the most power.

cheap 105 stages on Evans

https://www.evanscycles.com/stages-shimano-105-5800-g2-ex-demo-ex-display-EV313798

Interesting aero stuff here Garmin have bought out alphamantis

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2017/07/aerodynamics-alphamantis-acquired.html

Interesting stuff there dirtyrider, definitely one to watch.

New from 4iiii….

http://road.cc/content/tech-news/229626-4iiii-podiiiium-power-meter-launched-dual-and-single-side-options-and-15

And the new Vector’s look good with a price drop too. Don’t have a problem with the pods myself but I know it puts many off.

I’m liking the Favero Assioma’s personally. I think the P1s now look dead in the water. I also think £300 for single sided pedal option would be a milestone.

Possible stupid question alert – are 4iiii for road vs MTB different?

£300 for single sided pedal option would be a milestone.

You’d just have people complaining that they weren’t 200 quid a pedal 🙂

Do 4iiii do mtb yet? Only seen them on road cranks.

You can get the 4iiii Precision on XT or XTR crank arms.

Sweamrs has a 4iiii on her 105 cranks for road and also on her XT mtb cranks. They look the same as far as I can tell. They are down the road from me in Cochrane (Canada) so both times I just took the crank in for them to install. I think they are pretty limited though on the mtb side for crank compatibility. (High end Shimano only).

Possible stupid question alert – are 4iiii for road vs MTB different?

yes

you cannot use a road non drive on a mtb crankset, hits the chain stay, i posted pics of a stages road on my mtb once, didn’t clear the chainstay

More stages woes. Two Ultegra G2’s both warranty replacements. Massive over reading off zero offset on one and low offset on street other. Both resulting in power drops & wildly fluctuating readings either 30/40watts under or over.
Starting to think it could be a UK based use as one of them was absolutely no probs in the alps over summer, perfect calibration reading and great battery life come back to the uk and off we go again with same probs.
I thought hey had fixed it with G2s thinking rather have G1s with piss poor battery life than the problems I’ve had with power drop outs on G2s

And by contrast, I’ve just checked my powerpod against bike calculator for our winter loop on my fixed wheel. Powerpod says 222 watts, vs. 219 predicted. Pretty happy with that. As I’ve said before, on the fixed wheel and TT bike, the readings are reliable and reproducible.

Our club champs on Saturday produced a threshold FTP effort. Basically an hour in a breakaway of three. Powercal says 260 watts for an average heart rate of 170. IT Isa bit low at the extremes. But a rough average

Bit of a PSA….Watteam PowerBeat double sided power meter for less than £300.

http://www.clevertraining.co.uk/watteam-powerbeat-the-world-s-first-add-on-pro-level-powermeter

Use DCR10BTF for another 10% off. I think this is the old model.

You can have dual sided for £350 (inc cranks):

https://shop.teamzwatt.com/

I have a Zpider and would recommend it. Works great for me. No tricky installation, or silly pods get damaged (unlike the watteam ones above), and rechargeable. There are also very regular software updates / improvements (the downside of this is there is a small monthly maintenance fee for 24 months).

4iii on 105 for 315 quid at Ribble black friday deal.

£300 for single sided pedal option would be a milestone.

And has arrived. until midnight 4iiii 105 cranks at £285

https://www.probikekit.co.uk/cycling-power-meters/4iiii-precision-2.0-3d-power-meter-105-5800-black/11273315.html

Powertap P1 pedals seem to be £799 everywhere now, is that new? Personally I’d still wait for Vector 3 or get Favero pedals if I didn’t already have bePROs.

Yes, they’ve had to lower their price to the Vector 3s. I was hoping for some Assioma’s on offer today, but the only discount so far is a bundle with a Garmin 520 – which I don’t need.

Just ordered powertap P1S on click and collect for £343 including my discount card.

Good/bad decision?

Good/bad decision?

Only time will tell 😉

PowerPod has some fans around here. It’s on at PBK for 200 quid for the next hour here.

.

PowerPod has some fans around here.

I’m not using mine – £100 to the first interested party, with cable & under bar go pro / Garmin mount. 😀

I’d be tempted by that Kryton, Bluetooth or ant+?

I’m pretty sure its the V1 which is ANT+ only…?

Bought in April.

300 quid for a 105 4iiii from ProBikeKit with SAVE20 code.

If you can be arsed with the fitting, then Watteam Powerbeat now £300 for dual sided:

http://www.clevertraining.co.uk/watteam-powerbeat-single-dual-2-pack-power-meter

Single sided version is £204.

Worth reading the review on DC Rainmaker if interested.

(Not sure, but might be able to get an extra discount on top of that with DCR VIP thingy.)

Be good to hear some real world feedback on those PowerBeat ones.

Anyone else having trouble with their PM’s in the cold weather? Had my PowerTap C1 on the turbo bike for a couple of years with no problems. Switched it to the training bike for this winter and have managed to kill it in a couple of months.

While that’s gone back to Paligap I swapped over some to some Vectors and they managed to chew through a pair of batteries in a couple of rides. Used the Vectors all last winter with no problems, hopefully just a duff batch of batteries. Am subjecting them to a lot more cold and wet this winter though that would have had me on the turbo last winter.

Quick straw poll. Who’s riding their PM’s outdoors through winter? So far this winter has killed a C1 spider and one of my Vector pods. So what’s coping well and what isn’t?

^^ to follow that up, I’d be quite tempted by the Assioma now, having all the electronics encased in a resin block. Easy rechargeable looks good too. I’m sure a lot of the issues I have is with internal condensation when bringing a cold bike indoors to change batteries.

Quick straw poll. Who’s riding their PM’s outdoors through winter? So far this winter has killed a C1 spider and one of my Vector pods. So what’s coping well and what isn’t?

Stages 😀

Joking aside the replacement (third unit now) is confined to the turbo this winter, I can’t be assed with all the battery and support hassles all over again.