Bike is a general road bike, the only one I have. It's carbon and a bit racy; I do a few long rides on it, mostly training though and I may still race on it.
Currently have a Powertap and 32h Open Pro rims which are getting a bit thin. So do I:
1) Rebuild the same
2) Rebuild with deeper stiffer rims, the faster to race with and the better to sprint with maybe..?
3) Sell the Powertap hubs and use the proceeds to buy a stiff low spoke count aero factory wheelset?
Rebuild with Mavic CXP33's for a stiffer wheel? Same width as Open Pros.
That's what I was thinking of for 2. Would I notice a difference, if so what? I'm not light.
If I used my powertap outdoors I'd be very tempted to rebuild with a Chinese carbon rim. Nothing too crazy, maybe 25 or 35mm deep.
Have a look at Wheelsmiths; you can get very good quality Gigantex sourced carbon rims in both clincher and tubular versions for very decent money (I have a set of 60mm for TTs).
If you go with their own brand hubs, even with CX Ray spokes you can get a pair for about £700, which I know is still quite a bit of money but if you consider that you'll pay that for H Plus Sons on DT or Chris King hubs, they're a bargain.
Here's a left field though though.
Get them built up on Ambrosio Nemesis rims, stick (literally) a set of Vittoria Paves or if you'd prefer to have almost no punctures (ever) a set of Conti Sprinter Gatorskins and magic up your carpet ride!
Soooo comfy and they look lovely.
rebuild on an archetype; the only alloy rim worth bothering with these days.
rebuild on an archetype; the only alloy rim worth bothering with these days.
Well it's bloody good rim but there are other choices. The Panceti SL23 is also supposed to be very good. The Ambrosio Excelight is high quality if a little more traditional 'box section'.
The best resource I've found on wheel building is on DCR Hunt's website:
[url= http://dcrwheels.co.uk/ ]DCR Hunt Wheels[/url]
Under the 'Information' tab is a gold mine of insight and very well informed opinion on everything from rims to, er, nipples 😯
Yeh, those Pacentis are a bit of a dear do. The excel lights are a bit like the mavics really, solid and realiable but not as wide or as stiff as the Archetypes.
What sort or racing?
Pacenti SL23 with cx-rays or (for a cheaper option) lasers. CPX33 rims are narrow and 470g is optimistic. 32h powertap is never going to build into a super-light race day wheel and is probably overkill unless you're over 85Kg.
CXP33's will build a stiffer wheel that weighs a little more than your Open Pros. The tyres will seat the same and have the same profile. I have both, and I also have wider 21 mm rims. In truth, there is little difference between 25c on the 19 mm Mavic rims and 23c on the 21 mm rims. I've gone back to 23c on the wider rims, having run 25c as it looked like overkill. You won't need 32 spokes, either.
I have 22/24 spokes with Dura Ace hubs and Sapim Race in black, wheels are about 1750g with skewers and built for robustness as a do it all set for my nice bike. I have raced them on the road on Surrey potholes and they performed just fine.
I think having tested both rim and tyre widths, that most of the noise is hype. Pick a good rim that builds a rigid wheel and use tyres with a good tubular-like profile. I like Schwalbe Ones and Mavic Yksion Pros (they match the rims 😳 ). Both with latex inner tubes.
I'd be very tempted to rebuild with a Chinese carbon rim. Nothing too crazy, maybe 25 or 35mm deep.
Why so?
And £700 isn't going to happen. That's just getting out of hand. £50-60 for a rim I could stretch to 🙂
What sort of racing? Dunno. It's the only road bike I own or plan to own, so maybe a flat circuit race, maybe a crit, maybe a TT with some clip-ons. Whatever I fancy at some point in the future.
You won't need 32 spokes, either.
I do have 32h hubs though...
Fair enough. I'd go with the thinner Sapim Laser spokes in 32h on CXP33s. Plenty of other choices, but if you've been happy with Open Pros, you'll get more of the same with a little extra aero effect and a stiffer wheel.
Why so?
It's a heavy old hub, I'd be tempted to get something light and stiff like a [url= http://www.light-bicycle.com/wider-700c-38mm-clincher-carbon-rims-for-cyclocross-bikes-road-bike.html#.VOUlEEItJ8M ]38mm carbon clincher[/url] ($150 dollars each, so not super expensive.) Build it with light spokes too as you'll have 32 of them.
If it's just a training rim then just get something like an Archetype or another OpenPro. If you want to use it for racing too I'd think about getting it lighter (~100g for the LB rim), a bit more aero and probably a bit stiffer too.
Will I notice a difference between those Chinese carbon and CXP33? Will it really be faster? Sounds like extra cost and risk for negligible gain tbh.
Molgrips I might get flamed for this and it's unlikely to be as much help as I'd like but I will share with you my experiences. Between two sets of wheels, a set of regular handbuilt Archetypes and a set of Dura Ace C35 clinchers, over a 60km on the same bike, I would typically see a difference of up to about 0.5kph in average speed. It's not much and it's definitly not accurate, just anecdotal but I've done enough riding to feel confident that it's a ball park figure.
This difference will be more about aerodynamics than weight as those rides where I am doing the comparison tends to be flat. Those cheap Chinese carbon rims, if they have a relatively decent profile, will likely perform better than say the archetype or equivalent from Mavic. You can't know for sure based on what Im saying here and you wont feel it so much out on the bike, only when you get home and look at your stats.
Where you can 'feel' a difference in wheels is when climbing anew especially in steeper climbs where a very light set of wheels is noticeably easier to ride than a heavier set, say 1400g vs 1750g.
over a 60km on the same bike, I would typically see a difference of up to about 0.5kph in average speed
That's quite a bit actually.
Which is the faster wheel?
The C35 is the faster wheel. With wheels that confer an aerodynamic advantage, the benefit feels quite odd. You don't necessarily feel like you're going faster but you find yourself feeling just a bit fresher and less fatigued for the same speed. It's only a small difference and at first you kind of just dismiss it as placebo or down to being on a 'float' day. But after a while you start to realise that the feeling gets repeated.
I'll try to give a good example. Let's say your blatting along a nice stretch of tarmac and you're holding a good average of say 35kph. You're feeling great but then the road starts to kick up and you know you want to hold your speed so you dig a little deeper and press a little harder to compensate. You're holding your speed up the incline nicely and then it occurs to you that your legs aren't burning quite as much as you thought they might be; it's only a slight difference, but you seem to have held the speed without having to try quite as hard as you were anticipating.
The first time that happens you just dismiss it as one of those things. The second time you figure maybe you just had a tail wind. The third time, must be on a float day. But by the time you've felt this a dozen times you start to wonder whether maybe the wheels really are helping.
Another way to look at it. I ride quite a bit and am in pretty decent shape. On my best day on a recreational ride I could average say 30-31kph for a 60km+ ride and I'd be at at least 85% of my max HR for the entire time and well above that for quite a bit.
On the same bike, on a 40km TT (25 miles), with 60mm aero rims and clip ons but otherwise the same bike, bingo, suddenly I can averge 40kph. That's a massive jump in performance; yes it's on a relatively flat course and yes it's only a 40km ride but still, the jump in speed is huge. It can't all be explained by the effect of it being a race.
The Archetype wheels I have are nice enough but they are not a patch on the C35s (even though they are not far off being the same price - full whack for CK hubs, CX Ray Spokes and Archetype rims was around £850 whereas I paid £1000 for the C35s)
Thanks for writing that, 10 times better described than the majority of magazine articles.
Hmmm even more aero wheel curious now 😀
Hmmm even more aero wheel curious now
Several places offer you loan wheels to try them out and see what you think. The one that springs to mind immediately are [url= http://www.stradawheels.co.uk/ ]Strada Wheels[/url]
They are based down near Worthing on the south coast (local-ish to me) and they bring in a product called The Rail by a company called November Bikes. It's either a 35mm or 50mm full carbon clincher. It's nothing like as cheap as those Light Bicycle examples but they are a lot cheaper than Zipps/Enves etc. You can get a full set on CX Rays for about £1100.
More importantly, I am pretty sure they have loan wheels. Jonathan Day is the man to call - 01903 750040
I'd go with what TiRed said. Sounds like you want a do-it-all wheel. The CXP33 rims would be a bit stiffer and more aero and frankly a bit less archaic than the ubiquitous Open Pros.
FWIW I have Archetypes on 28H DT hubs and they're fantastic all rounders but they're not race wheels. They're too heavy and not stiff enough - not that I do any racing.... yet.
I've got Strada built tubs on my CX bike and they're brilliant!
Kinda fancy a pair of Bora's to go with rest of the Campy kit, but the price, ohh my goodness.
I've got Strada built tubs on my CX bike and they're brilliant!
What did you have them build you?
I've just ordered a set of Nemesis on Dura Ace 9000 hubs from Strada (literally yesterday). I've had an itch for a set of traditional box section tubs for ages and decided to borrow my brothers Nemesis wheels to see how they rode.
I came into work on them this morning and the ride was sublime. They are a little heavier than the Archetypes funnily enough (I think because the spokes are heavier in the Nemesis build) but they 'roll' so much smoother. That might not equate to speed but it felt lovely.
I'm up for new wheels for the road bike. Yesterday I was looking, online, at Spada Stilletto, but I'm not convinced by the hubs.
Last year I was getting dangerously close to the buy button on a pair of Aeolus D3 3s. But decided against for now.
I'm feeling a bit ambivalent about braking performance for carbon rims. Probably being over picky, but I like good braking. However, after the description by GT1972, who wouldn't have their interest in aero rims, reignited?
I'd be tempted to sell what I have and use the proceeds plus any tip-up, to buy new.
[i]I came into work on them this morning and the ride was sublime. They are a little heavier than the Archetypes funnily enough (I think because the spokes are heavier in the Nemesis build) but they 'roll' so much smoother. That might not equate to speed but it felt lovely. [/i]
Isn't that the nature of tubulars, rather than the wheels themselves?
The glue thing has always put me off Tubular tyres, but I noticed the schwalbe tubeless system might be worth a look as a close second?
I'm feeling a bit ambivalent about braking performance for carbon rims.
I've been plesantly surprised by the braking performance on my 60mm Gigantex wheels (from Wheelsmiths) but I haven't ridden them in heavy rain and they are tubs, not clinchers, so you don't have the worry about them overheating.
<you see this is why disc brakes make sense!>
The C35s of course side step the problem altogether by having an alloy braking surface; actually it's more technically correct to say they have an alloy rim with a carbon laminate fairing. I thnk the fairing is structural, but it's still bonded to the alloy.
As I said you can get them for about £1000; not cheap but very good value. The hubs are very good indeed (although cup and cone, they are a doddle to service; much easier than cartidges with fiddly circlips and seals that never reseat).
The 35mm section clinchers are a great all rounder. The 50mm clinchers are probably too heavy for that purpose but would be a good choice for a convenient TT wheel. For an all round clincher 50mm I would look at the Rail from Strada but if you want a 50mm all rounder, I wouuld rather go for a tub.
Rebuild with Mavic CXP33's for a stiffer wheel? Same width as Open Pros.
Yeah, heavier and less comfortable, great!
OP: depends...do you use your power meter?
You say you want stiff and you also want low spoke count. Which is it?
EDIT oh blimey read some of the thread and so much to say...as an example GeeTee on about aero one minute then weight the next...everyone know light weight feels better but aero is faster. I struggle to believe 0.5khp I have to say, esp on a 35mm rim.
OP the differences will be very small, even if you are fast or racing. Open pros are great rims, tubs are more comfortable, tubeless is almost as good IMO/E. IMO the rim and tyre weight/type (tub vs tubeless vs regular) is what you feel - spokes less so and hubs just as little as the rest of the bike.
geetee1972, your post reminds me of a visit to see my uncle last summer. He lent me his Scott Foil with Zipp 404 wheels for a weekend. The wheels were, well, sublime. Just better in every conceivable way to what I'd ridden before. That feeling of a repeating float day is spot on.
Is there any data on how tall a rim needs to be before it has any tangible aero effect?
[i] but I haven't ridden them in heavy rain and they are tubs, not clinchers, so you don't have the worry about them overheating. [/i]
My Dumbness is revealing itself now, I wasn't aware of heat issues for carbon wheels, I thought the issue was lack of retardation, precipitating the additional purchase of carbon specific brake blocks.
My friend with the Aeolus D3s said he bought some carbon specific brake blocks which, in the dry, performed virtually as well, in his opinion, as when he was running alloy wheels with traditional brake blocks.
[i](although cup and cone[/i]
thats where I'm out, I'm never happy with the preloading, it drives me nuts. so I stick to sealed bearings.
[i] mr_stru - Member
Is there any data on how tall a rim needs to be before it has any tangible aero effect? [/i]
Bontrager released a white paper discussing their Aeolus wheels and how they developed the rim leading edge. Obviously the paper is going to tell you the Aeolus is wonderful, but aside from that, it may offer an additional insight to the whole debate on aero rims. for example, those rims designed to deal with air flow, not directly inline with the direction of travel, etc.
with 60mm aero rims and clip ons
That'll be the clip ons making that difference then.
+1 to cynic-al cooments.
I think most important point is do you use the Power Tap? and would you miss it?
You could always build the Power Tap onto a carbon deep section rear, then just get a Mavic Ksyerium or some such for the front.
heavier and less comfortable
and stiffer, which was the original remit 😉
I like Open Pros, and bought the CXP33's for a solid do anything wheel. The stiffness is noticeable in a race and I'm only 68 kg.
TiRed do you seriously believe a "stiffer" wheel is measurably faster?
FWIW I have Archetypes on 28H DT hubs and they're fantastic all rounders but they're not race wheels. They're too heavy and not stiff enough - not that I do any racing.... yet.
Interested to hear that, I'm 85kg (working on it but unlikely to lose much!) and day dreaming about hand building Dura Ace hubs onto Archetypes with 32 DT Rev spokes. Didn't think stiffness would be an issue, although Shimano hubs reputedly build stiff rims due to the bracing angle of the flanges (they don't look high so I'm guessing they're relatively wide).
When you say not stiff enough, in what way?
No, but it is stiffer. And if you are 90 kilos then that might be important when sprinting out of the saddle during those 5 second neuromuscular efforts you want to capture with that Powertap.
When you say not stiff enough, in what way?
for racing. Been thinking about crits and do race training with my club. I feel that the front wheel doesn't track as well as I would like through high speed turns and in a full chat sprint I can feel the front wheel flexing under me. Or at least that's my perception which doesn't help with confidence. I'm 75kg so not heavy.
I've put a few thousand miles in the wheels so maybe they just need a tune.
Since I was checking in with Strada about my order I also asked about the demo wheels they have.
They do indeed have a pair of 50mm Rails built and ready to demo. You pay £40 to have them installed on your bike and set up correctly (I imagine that this covers things like brake blocks and ensuring they are adjusted). That amount is then refunded to you should you buy a set of wheels from them, which is reasonable.
On a separate note, I am probably going to sell my own Strada built Archetype/Chrisk King/CX Ray wheels to fund the purchase of the Nemesis I have on order with them.
I will of course post this in the classifieds and include pictures but since quite a few people here are referencing wanting to buy a good set of handbuilt wheels I thought I would mention it.
Missed this:
What did you have them build you?
I got a pair of x demo wheels, Hope hubs with Velocity Major tom rims.
Had them three seasons and they've been excellent, not too heavy, very low maintenance, and still true.
They are now my mud specific wheelset with Rhino tubs.
I've read some comments regarding stiffness, which reminded me of some reading I was doing recently on a related subject. It was suggested that excessive vibration will negatively effect overall cycling performance, IIRC something to do with either accelerated rider fatigue or additional energy req'd to power a buzzin bike.
If that indeed may be possible, then would having super stiff wheels actually possess the potential to detract from overall performance?
Obviously, at the other end of the spectrum, you wouldn't want wheels that don't track very wheel or flex excessively when you're out of the saddle.
Edit:
Slight hijack 😉
@GT1972, What kind of wheel build are you having made at the moment and what would be on the sensible, but still very nice, list of wheels you'd like to have, or that you rate?
@GT1972, What kind of wheel build are you having made at the moment and what would be on the sensible, but still very nice, list of wheels you'd like to have, or that you rate?
I'm having a set of Ambrosio Nemesis tubular rims built onto Dura Ace 9000 hubs, with Spaim Race spokes (equivalent to DT Comps).
It's partly the need to scratch an itch to have a set of tubular wheels to use regularly and partly because they are just do damn nice to ride. I've been using a set of thes for the last week, borrowed from my brother, and they are in all honesty sublime. I wouldn't for one moment say they are faster, but they roll so nicely, are so smooth and effortless in how they feel.
Here's a good analogy: it's the difference between car journeys made in say a Porsche 911 vs a Rolls Royce where the 911 is analgous to my 60mm deep all carbon race wheels (which are also tubs but are super stiff) and the Rolls is equivalent to the Nemesis.
The 911 is easily quicker but the ride feels harsher and the net effect is that you have to push yourself a bit more to press on. You go do end up with a much higher average speed, but it's mentally more challenging to get there.
In the Rolls, you don't worry about outright speed; you just 'waft along' on a sense of happiness and goodwill. Bceause you're more comfortable your residual pace without thinking about it is a little higher and when things come together on a particularly smooth stretch of road, you're encouraged to press on a little more. If you do press on, you'll find a much earlier limit to how fast you go and if you try to press through that, you'll end up being disappointed. With the faster wheels, if you press on, your speed just keeps climbing, so you're incentivised to ride harder.
So the Nemesis build is going to be an experiment in living and riding with tubs on a regular basis. I am armed with several cans of Vitorria Pitstop and it will be intersting to see how well this works the first time I have a puncture on a tub (which hasn't happened yet in about 1000 miles of riding - I've heard from other experienced wheels builders that you just don't puncture as much on tubs anyway. We will see).
As for sensible but nice wheels - top of the list is the Dura Ace C35 - it's at the very top end of sensible but at £1000 (which is 20% off list but they can be had for this), they are brilliant.
Wheelsmiths will build you a 38mm deep carbon rim on Novatec hubs for £700. That's a very compelling proposition as well.
If you wanted to live with tus as well, then the Nemesis on a Dura Ace hubs are £600. If Royce made an 11-speed compatible hub, I would have them on those in a heartbeat. The finish on Royce hubs (clear pearlescent lacquer) is to die for and they are the most robust hubs bar none. A Nemesis build on Novatech/Ambrosio (which I think are Novatec) hubs would be sub £500. With a set of Conti Sprinter Gatorskins stuck on with Tufo tape (which is so easy to set up), you've got a dreamy riding pair of wheels that will (hopefully) cut your puncture rate more than in half.
I think Tubs get a poor reception these days, but they are still nicer to ride than even the best 'open tubular' tyre. Yes the gap is much closer but it's still there.
@GT1972.
Wow!, thanks for that, that's great 🙂
I didn't post a budget as the sky cold be the limit, but for a mental safety valve which kicks-in and reminds me that I don't know enough about wheels to blow big money on them.
Actually I'm not familiar with about 80% of the brands you mention, so I'll do some research, thanks.
I'm afraid I am one of those who hasn't ever ridden on tubs and would not do so, for the issues related to punctures. Going on now to jinx myself, I very rarely puncture when most of the folk I sometimes ride with are always puncturing.
Actually, I know very little about tubs, like if you puncture, whether thats a new tyre or whether one repairs them, somehow.
More to learn, for me.
Cheers.
Actually, I know very little about tubs, like if you puncture, whether thats a new tyre or whether one repairs them, somehow.
This is the reason why the mantra still seems to be 'tubs for racing, clinchers for everything else' and perhaps rightly so.
Forgive me if I end up being a little patronising, but basically a tub is a tyre with an inner tube sewn inside it, i.e. the tyre carcass is laid flat, the inner tube laid inside and the sides wrapper around it and sewn up the middle.
High quality tubs tend to use latex inner tubes. It's one of the reasons they 'roll better', i.e. there is less rolling resistance, and also why they might be a little more resistant to punctures.
But you can still puncture and when you do, while out on a ride, you've got two options.
1) take the punctured tub off and put a new one on at the road side. This is how everyone used to do it back in the day (and plenty of people lived with tubs as their everyday wheel, like my dad). You can fold a spare tube up pretty well and strap it under your saddle.
The downside is that, whether you're using glue or tape, without additional adhesive, the new tub isn't going to be quite as firmly stuck on. When you corner a tub that's not properly adhered, it can roll off and you will crash. The upside is that you can still ride a flat tub quite readily.
There are a few people who can repair punctured tubs. It means unstiching the carcass and either replacing the tube (you can't repair latex tubes) or fixing it as you would otherwise. It costs around £15 to have that done, not including the cost of a new latex tube (I vividly remember my dad sat at home with his (big) needle and (thick) thread mending his tubs.
2) You fill the punctured tub with Vittoria Pitstop which seals the puncture, inflates the tyre and you carry on. That stuff is supposed to be good for up to three months but I guess you'd want to change the tub pretty soon after having done that.
Now as I said earlier, I personally have yet to use that as a solution (no pun intended) so I am really hoping that it does work as well as everyone has told me it does.
However well it works though, I get the impression (from speaking to the old boy who was famous for being the 'go to' guy for tub repair - I think he might have died recently) that once you've spunked a load of that stuff into the tub, it's then beyond being repairable. I don't know whether that's because some of the material leaks into the carcass and ruins it or what.
There is no doubt that having explained all that, you'll be left thinking 'why would anyone bother'? The simple answer is because they are better/faster etc (athough that is being challenged currently as well).
The principle reason why they are faster is because the best quality tubs, typically have a much higher thread count and the carcass is not 'vulcanised', the rubber tread is glued on to the surface. That makes the whole thing more supple, which reduces rolling resistance and makes for a much comfier ride.
A tubular rim is also a good deal lighter than a clincher. Look at the Enve range and there is around a 10-15% weight difference on a like for like basis for just the weel. The lightest tubs are also up to 20% lighter than the lightest tyre/tube combo's. They are also quite a bit more expensive though; rrp on a Vittoria Corsa CX is £80 (although you can buy them for £55 quite readily).
So that's why people say tubs for racing etc etc. They are 'better' where better is equal to faster.
Then you get the research that suggest that clinchers are actually more aerodynamic and that the reason Tony Martin used them to win the world TT championships a few years back was because of this.....
I'm having a set of Ambrosio Nemesis tubular rims built onto Dura Ace 9000 hubs, with Spaim Race spokes (equivalent to DT Comps).
That'll be a lovely set of wheels 🙂
I have a puncture on a tub (which hasn't happened yet in about 1000 miles of riding - I've heard from other experienced wheels builders that you just don't puncture as much on tubs anyway. We will see).
That does seem to be the case. I've a fair few training and racing miles on the TT bike with tubs on. Carry a can of pitstop when training but am getting quite blasé about it. Though that is pretty much all on sunny day decent roads.
I'll stick with open tubulars and latex tubes for training on the road bike though.
Edit...
As for sensible but nice wheels - top of the list is the Dura Ace C35 - it's at the very top end of sensible but at £1000 (which is 20% off list but they can be had for this), they are brilliant.
If I was getting something like this it'd be for racing and I'd get tubs. Maybe the C35 tubs or 303's. I'm not sure I'd spend that much on a pair of clinchers.
GT1972. Brilliant! I had heard about being able to ride on punctured tubs, albeit more cautiously, at least until you get home or for the pros, when the team car could get to them and provide a replacement wheel. Yes, I've also heard reports expressing a preference for how they ride, so it's been good to have someone else with experience confirm this.
My [i]best[/i] road bike is currently on it's bars and saddle, san wheels. So during the coming months I would like to buy a really nice wheels set. I like the idea of tubs, but at this stage I'll have to put that idea on the back burner. The winter bike is currently on a set of Mavic SLS Ksyrium, carbon hub body, zircal flat spokes and the 3D ISM rims. I think I paid around £700 for them a few years ago and at around 1400g they've been good enough for me, so far. I'm also thinking of obtaining a pair of hope aero on ZTR 400s which provide the opportunity to try tubeless at a later date.
Factory wheels, I know. I've had wheels built up for the commuter, years ago, but I've moved since then, so it would be a trek to return to the person who built those for me.
Appreciate the advice.
Ta.
[i]I'll stick with open tubulars and latex tubes for training on the road bike though. [/i]
I was once warned off latex inner tubes on the basis (I was told) that they tend to split, rather than hole. However, I'm not sure if that is an issue, if you can't glue a patch onto latex, anyway?
