teamhurtmore – Member
So bigotry wins the day. Brilliant.

It’s ok. Lost the day, actually. We will forgive you for it. 🙂

If we can climb out of the crab bucket instead of being dragged back in, we can help others climb out too.

But the Yessers still haven’t proposed how they intend to climb out of the bucket, they’ve just proposed a proportionally smaller bucket.

There are companies in Scotland serving the whole UK who would quite possibly lose 90% of their business if it cannot be exported. So they would have to move.

This is rubbish. Plenty of companies are owned abroad and do business inside the UK and vice versa.

Scotland is part of Britain, so yes it is my country…what’s changing is that a large number of my political allies are leaving. Can’t you understand why that represents a loss to me?

Sorry, just to be clear – is it correct that you’re a non-Scot living outside Scotland who has never lived in Scotland and has no present intention of living in Scotland?

I reckon you’ll get over the heartbreak soon enough…

But the Yessers still haven’t proposed how they intend to climb out of the bucket, they’ve just proposed a proportionally smaller bucket.

A proportionally smaller but more democratically representative bucket, without nuclear weapons 😉

How? Who can I vote for who has a realistic chance of getting into power and changing things? Labour? Yeah, right, we fell for that one before

So which Scottish party is going to deliver that @ben ? If none of the UK Labour Party (with 10 years in power), Lib Dems or Conservatives can deliver what you want, what does the Scottish political landscape have to offer that’s so different ? Surely the reality is that what you are looking for isn’t really achievable in practice, it’s classic politics to promise the earth and then fail to deliver. Reality is a bit tougher than utopia.

@epic no matter what would have happened in Scotland in the last 10 or 20 years there would have been a strong Yes campaign. If Scotland had enjoyed fabulous success the Scots would have argued it shows how they can stand on their own two feet and in fact would have been even better had they been independent. The rhetoric wouldn’t have changed.

Nobody up here believes that there will not be a price to pay for daring to even mention leaving.

project feart is working then

If it had kept faith with the Scottish electorate and ensured that some of the benefits of the wealth benefitted the areas it was being drawn from, this would not be happening.

Aberdeen is a desolate wasteland then?

Instead it contemptuously labelled the Scots as “subsidy junkies”.

everyone in rUK or just some people who get too much air time in the media? Are the Welsh and NI calling you this?

In hindsight, it may well be that that and a general air of contempt will be shown to be the largest factors in persuading individual Scots that they should get out of the UK.

the only contempt from rUK I see is for the proposition put forward by the elected members of the Scottish Parliament. Scots are proud but so are the people of rUK, Independence is one thing but expecting rUK to then subsidise a CU, pay cross border green energy subsidies, and incur all the costs of relocating elements of the civil service out of iS to serve rUK (and the rest of the list) is another. For rUK (and I believe for iS) there are considerable downsides for breaking up the Union and I think that our imperfect system still gives us a great place to live

but it’s your vote and rUK and the system you despise has accepted that Scotland can choose to carve it’s own path

No is an affirmation of the Union and working together for the future

Yes is for a divorce where we all scramble to protect our self interest (and rUK gets the kids)

So which Scottish party is going to deliver that @ben ? If none of the UK Labour Party (with 10 years in power), Lib Dems or Conservatives can deliver what you want, what does the Scottish political landscape have to offer that’s so different ? Surely the reality is that what you are looking for isn’t really achievable in practice, it’s classic politics to promise the earth and then fail to deliver. Reality is a bit tougher than utopia.

Maybe when the main parties in Scotland (out side of the SNP) aren’t taking hints and tips from the parties south of the border then there will a policy shift? It might focus the mind a bit, eh?

This is interesting – a geographic online survey of Scottish independence:

http://games.usvsth3m.com/scotchland-postcode-referendum/

Some pretty sharp dividing lines going on there.

big_n_daft – Member
“Instead it contemptuously labelled the Scots as “subsidy junkies”.”

everyone in rUK or just some people who get too much air time in the media? Are the Welsh and NI calling you this?

Don’t know about NI, but was that not the leader of the Welsh Assembly recently saying Scotland was getting too big a slice of the cake?

Somebody better have a word with Plaid Cymru then, if that is true then they are also out of touch!!!! 😉

Is that McCartney on the M of Kintyre?

epicyclo – Member

teamhurtmore – Member
So bigotry wins the day. Brilliant.

It’s ok. Lost the day, actually. We will forgive you for it.

Boom tish! An uncomfortable fact is the bigotry and borderline racial slurs displayed on this thread haven’t come from the yessirs.
BignDaft, not based on project feart,more the quotes from the current and possible future PM’s of Britain.

bencooper – Member
This is interesting – a geographic online survey of Scottish independence:

At the moment they are showing 78% in Scotland for Yes.

Probably a few dedicated cybernats clicking away so they are not cancelled out by the employed BT trolls. 🙂

Or in other words, I’ll be delighted if that’s the result, but I’ll believe it when I see it.

BignDaft, not based on project feart,more the quotes from the current and possible future PM’s of Britain.

quotes not policies, some from people not even in parliament but representing the city they are a mayor of

if there is “project fear” then there is “project feart” based on the same uncertainties of future reality

Sorry, just to be clear – is it correct that you’re a non-Scot living outside Scotland who has never lived in Scotland and has no present intention of living in Scotland?

Yes.

However I am a Brit who has lived in Britain most of his life and will continue to do so. A third of Britain is going along with a shitload of its resources and a load of my electoral allies.

So why should I not care?

If Northern England left, should I care?
If North Wales left, should I care?
If North Cardiff left, should I care?

Of course! The only reason you think I shouldn’t care is because it’s SCOTLAND and you think it’s another country. So that argument again comes down to pure nationalism.

Bad luck Yes campaign. George Monbiot has come out in favour of Independence.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/02/scots-independence-england-scotland
Still, it was nice while the dream lasted.

Or in other words, I’ll be delighted if that’s the result, but I’ll believe it when I see it.

Yes, I don’t think we can rely on the absolute numbers – online polls are notoriously inaccurate – it was more the geographic picture I found interesting.

Dear England,
During the course of this referendum campaign, you have been told many distortions of the truth and fabrications about Scotland and why people in Scotland are voting Yes.
You have been told by the likes of Andrew Marr and Jeremy Paxman that there is a strong anti-English feeling in Scotland driving support for independence, or that people in Scotland are voting yes because they want to break away from English people. You have been told by the likes of Taxpayer’s Alliance and UKIP that Scotland is a ‘subsidy-junkie’ leaching off the English taxpayer to pay for universal public services. You have been told by the likes of the Daily Telegraph and Kelvin McKenzie that Scotland is a resourceless nation, an economic desert, which has little to offer this island or the world. And finally, you have been told by your own politicians – David Cameron, Nick Clegg and Ed Miliband – that independence will hurt you in England as much as it will hurt us in Scotland.
We write to you, as English people living and working in Scotland, to tell you that this is false. The movement for a yes vote has proven again and again what its real intentions are, and if the media in the UK will not listen we feel it is our duty to set the record straight.
First, as English people involved in the independence movement, we feel we are confident in saying that sentiment against English people has been virtually non-existent in our movement. What people in Scotland want to escape is the Westminster regime, not the English people. The yes movement is about a multi-cultural Scotland, a Scotland based on diversity, and is vociferously opposed to the racist, anti-immigrant sentiment of the likes of UKIP. An independent Scotland would attempt to learn from people in England, welcome people from England, and extend our hand of friendship as equal nations.
Second, it is untrue that Scotland is a ‘subsidy-junkie’. Scotland pays more in taxation to the Treasury than it gets back in funding. We have universal public services in Scotland like free prescriptions and free tuition fees because Holyrood has been responsive enough to the wishes of the Scottish people. It would be entirely possible to have the same in England if your politicians got their priorities correct. We hope, as an independent country, Scotland can prove that world-class universal public services is affordable, and that people in England who believe the same can use our example when deciding who to vote for.
Third, Scotland and her people have great potential, just like England and her people do, and we want to be an independent nation so that we can make the most of that potential. We are currently held back, just like the North of England is held back, by a UK economy and political system which supports international finance against all other industry sectors. In the UK we have the greatest regional inequality in Europe. That is a problem for Scotland and for the rest of the UK. We want independence to start addressing that problem..
Lastly, the politicians of the UK’s main parties are simply wrong. Independence will be good for Scotland, and it will be good for England. Yes voters in Scotland have no bitterness or resentment towards people in England; in fact we believe the relationship north and south of the border will grow stronger, as we both treat one another as serious partners and friends economically, socially and politically.
Yours faithfully,
English Scots for Yes

http://www.englishscotsforyes.org/a-letter-to-england/

Lastly, the politicians of the UK’s main parties are simply wrong. Independence will be good for Scotland, and it will be good for England.

1) Why would it be good for England?

2) What about the Welsh? Who cares about them eh?! Seriously, if you’re Scottish and you feel you’re being overlooked and ignored, try being Welsh!

Ben, for a start:

Scotland pays more in taxation to the Treasury than it gets back in funding.

This is utterly untrue

In 2012-13, Scotland?s estimated net fiscal balance was a deficit of £17.6 billion (14.0%
of GDP) when excluding North Sea revenue, a deficit of £17.1 billion (13.3% of GDP)
when including a per capita share of North Sea revenue, or a deficit of £12.1 billion
(8.3% of GDP) when an illustrative geographical share of North Sea revenue is included.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0044/00446019.pdf

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/second-poll-puts-ukip-and-douglas-carswell-in-lead-again-at-clacton-byelection-9707816.html

Clacton by election poll:

UKIP 64%
Tories 20%
Labour 13%
Lib Dems 2%

aye, better together! 😐

Scotland doesn’t like being ruled by Westminster, North England doesn’t like being ruled by Westminster, Wales & NI don’t like being ruled by Westminster (I’ve even met people in Southampton who don’t like being ruled by Westminster). The answer then isn’t so much iScotland, but independent London and leave the rest of us to run our own affairs as regionally best fits our needs. No HS2, no Trident, no London Airports or Boris Island to subsidise.

molgrips – Member
2) What about the Welsh? Who cares about them eh?! Seriously, if you’re Scottish and you feel you’re being overlooked and ignored, try being Welsh!

Break away, we have no power to help you.

Of course! The only reason you think I shouldn’t care is because it’s SCOTLAND and you think it’s another country. So that argument again comes down to pure nationalism.

I think you’re confusing me with someone else.

I think the reason why you shouldn’t care is because you don’t seem to have any skin in the game. if you really cared, you would have some sort of history or interest or connection to Scotland. but you don’t seem to and it won’t make bugger all difference to your life in practical terms. so I wouldn’t worry about it.

This is utterly untrue

We’ve done this before. Scotland runs a deficit, like the rest of the UK, and like almost every country in the world. The difference is made up by borrowing. But if you look at percentages, Scotland puts in 9.9% of the total tax take and receives 9.3% of the total UK spending.

think the reason why you shouldn’t care is because you don’t seem to have any skin in the game.

Is my economy not going to be affected?

Will devolution for Wales ever be considered again seriously, without Scotland?

The answer then isn’t so much iScotland, but independent London and leave the rest of us to run our own affairs as regionally best fits our needs.

AKA devo max.

If I were in Scotland I’d tell Salmond to **** off with his divisive politics and have a debate about devo max instead. When you want oranges, why the hell are you taking an offer of apples or pears seriously? Makes no sense.

Will devolution for Wales ever be considered again seriously, without Scotland?

Absolutely. At the moment, Scotland is at the top of Whitehall’s “got to keep the natives happy” list, but once Scotland leaves then the attention will shift to making sure Wales doesn’t do the same.

Why so confident Ben?

Why so confident Ben?

About Scottish independence? I’d say I’m more hopeful than confident. Though the past week or so is the first time I’ve started to think we might actually win this.

molgrips – Member
1) Why would it be good for England?

2) What about the Welsh? Who cares about them eh?! Seriously, if you’re Scottish and you feel you’re being overlooked and ignored, try being Welsh!

1. I think the English people who wrote that were directing it at their fellow English people in England.

2. No one can care about the Welsh more than the Welsh. In many ways what the Welsh have done culturally is a bit of inspiration for Scotland. Now they need to take the next step . Or maybe a new Owain Glynd?r could make use of the the 600 armoured cars being built in Wales. 🙂

Ben: No I meant why so confident that the Welsh will get increased devoution?

We got a pretty shitty slice of the pie last time if you remember.

How are plaid out of touch thm?

Or maybe a new Owain Glynd?r could make use of the the 600 armoured cars being built in Wales.

Yes, what’s the deal with that? Someone thinking about a new land war with someone?

Ben: No I meant why so confident that the Welsh will get increased devoution?

We got a pretty shitty slice of the pie last time if you remember.

You did. I guess because Welsh independence wasn’t seen as such a big threat that it had to be countered with as much devolution as we got. That didn’t really work out, though, devolution only really encouraged Scottish independence.

I have family in North Wales, but don’t live there, I don’t have any feel for how people view things – but my feeling is that Wales is on the same road as Scotland, just not so far along it.

One issue with iS giving us all a voice, is that everyone will expect to be heard. There is no way a Scottish Government can meet the needs of the disparate population, so maybe it’s just as well we currently get ignored by Westminster. When we did have independence, the Highlands hated the Lowlanders and didn’t like being run by Edinburgh. The west coast hated the east coast and didn’t like being run by Edinburgh and the Borders hated being stuck in no-mans-land and switched allegiance as it suited them. Can’t see why this would change with a modern iS.

my feeling is that Wales is on the same road as Scotland, just not so far along it.

It would be interesting. I wonder if the UK could actually be replaced with a set of sharing agreements? Free trade, military co-operation, open borders etc?

I might vote for that.

@amatuer, couple of answers to that:

– That was 300 years ago, populations shift and change, opinions alter. You can’t assume that everyone will revert to what their forefathers believed three centuries ago.

– There wasn’t a democratic parliament in Scotland 300 years ago.

amatuer – Member
One issue with iS giving us all a voice, is that everyone will expect to be heard. There is no way a Scottish Government can meet the needs of the disparate population, so maybe it’s just as well we currently get ignored by Westminster. When we did have independence, the Highlands hated the Lowlanders and didn’t like being run by Edinburgh. The west coast hated the east coast and didn’t like being run by Edinburgh and the Borders hated being stuck in no-mans-land and switched allegiance as it suited them. Can’t see why this would change with a modern iS.

We’ve moved on a little from the clan system and absolute monarchies of the 16/1700s! 😀 ffs, you serious? 😆

molgrips – Member
my feeling is that Wales is on the same road as Scotland, just not so far along it.
It would be interesting. I wonder if the UK could actually be replaced with a set of sharing agreements? Free trade, military co-operation, open borders etc?

I might vote for that.first step is an independent wales.

I wouldn’t take that leap without the next step being in place..

It would be interesting. I wonder if the UK could actually be replaced with a set of sharing agreements? Free trade, military co-operation, open borders etc?

That would be a perfect solution for me too – independent countries, but in the same trade area (the EU), the same military alliance (NATO), open borders (Schengen) – that’s exactly what we want for Scotland, and it would be fantastic if Wales could join us in that too, along with any other nation that wants to.

amatuer – Member
…When we did have independence, the Highlands hated the Lowlanders and didn’t like being run by Edinburgh. The west coast hated the east coast and didn’t like being run by Edinburgh and the Borders hated being stuck in no-mans-land and switched allegiance as it suited them. Can’t see why this would change with a modern iS.

Perhaps 300 years, roads, air travel, telecommunications, and the internet makes a difference?