Not at all – its just the attitude MF shows is rather extreme and as far as he is concerned his attitude and methods are the only valid ones.

It has come up a few times on threads discussing children. Hence what molgrips is saying.

Disposables / reusables eco argument is not totally obvious and it depends what bits of pollution you consider most important. Reusbale shade it just about

Not at all – its just the attitude MF shows is rather extreme and as far as he is concerned his attitude and methods are the only valid ones.

Is that right?
My original reply…
Whatever works best for you – sound arguments for both ( environmental v convenience etc). We use dispoable but only because we have twins and can barely keep up with the washing/drying of clothes as it is.

We're also having conversations around disposable/non at the moment whilst bump#1 uses its mum as kicking practice…

ISTR some research being done by Procter & Gamble BITD about disposables being about the same environmentally as non-disposables? Something to do with the extra energy of washing machine on hot-ish cycle plus detergents being washed to sea, vs the more "visual" impact of pampers.

<goes and googles>

Oh, turns out the best solution is to use a laundry service.

Ok, my tuppence worth. We have a 5 month old and use Nature babycare “eco biodegradable” disposable nappies AND reusable Motherease washables. When Junior Bakes was small we stuck to disposables due to the washables being too big (‘one size’ doesn’t quite fit all) but since he passed one month old the washables have been used during the day, with disposables (usually only one needed) overnight and when out and about. We feel this is the perfect compromise between ease, cost, environmental benefits and comfort for him.

The disposables are 100% biodegradable and will in theory break down much quicker then ‘other brands’ in landfill. They are however more expensive, but this is offset by also using washables. We’ve declined from putting them in the compost bin as there are still a quite a few used every week but certainly the wheelie bin is not over loaded so far.

The washables were bought second hand (much cheaper and no further costs (environmental or otherwise) of manufacture) and will be passed on in due course. As has been described they’re barely any more trouble than disposables to use when about the house and rather than emptying a lidded bin of them into the wheelie bin periodically, we empty them into the washing machine. I’d guess it results in 2/3 extra loads a week at most and takes no time to hang on the rads/ drier to dry at ambient temperatures.

Personally I’m pretty dubious of the 2005/2008 study that found in favour of disposables which, from memory, was based on boil washes, tumble drying and ignored the issue of disposal to landfill. I’m not saying it was, but bear in mind a lot of this research may be funded by those with a vested interest in one result or another. Those that bring up the waste in water and energy in using washables could start with reducing their usage for cleaning bike & bike kit way before the three extra nappy loads it takes us. However, there are times when a disposable is much more convenient and they are also more absorbent for overnight or long journeys so we’ll use them accordingly.

That’s our experience so far and it may well change when Jnr moves onto solids and we start needing liners etc. However I’d say don’t rule out washables on the grounds of ease and certainly not on environmental grounds.

Personally I’m pretty dubious of the 2005/2008 study that found in favour of disposables

It didn't find in favour of either which has been my point all along – there really doesn't appear to be a clear winner in terms of which is best so the best bet is to do what suits your own lifestyle and/or values and don't worry about it too much. After all, if a carbon footprint is that much of a concern, what are you doing having a baby at all in the first place? 😉

research being done by Procter & Gamble BITD about disposables being about the same environmentally as non-disposables?

Research carried out by a disposable nappy manufacturer shows that there is no additional environmental impact when using disposable nappies over reusable ones?

No surprise there then.

NB. not arguing one way or the other, just suspicious of research carried out by companies/ people with an specific interest in seeing the research turn out a particular way.

ISTR some research being done by Procter & Gamble

That's Procter and Gamble, manufacturer of Pampers? 🙄

Dr Bakes – similar experience to ours except we hated Motherease. They always seemed to leak. Do you not have this problem?

As for solid poo – we've not had a single leakage with solid poo. It seems to be (for us) a lot less mobile, and a lot easier to clean up from the arse, but it really really stinks like.. well.. sh*t. Hhugely less pleaseant than milk poo 🙂

After all, if a carbon footprint is that much of a concern, what are you doing having a baby at all in the first place?

It's all about mitigation innit.

It's all about mitigation innit.

I was being facetious there though really!

M-F, it's all about compromise I'd say. However if the manufacturers of, among other brands, Huggies, Snugglers and Pull Ups (Kimberley Clark), are putting that report on their website it’s a fair bet that those results lie firmly on their side of the argument’s mean? Disposable nappies contribute 4% of landfill volume which is quite a bit when you think of the size of those responsible! I’m not in your situation but what I’ve outlined above seems the best compromise for us.

Molgrips: The Motherease seem fine for Jnr and the only really serious leakage (top of neck!) we’ve had has actually been from the disposables!

Used reusable including having two kids in nappies at the same time.
Babies on reusables tend to be toilet trained faster than those in disposables.
As for the is it greener I suspect anything reusable is better than anything we use once and then throw away – is the disposable nature of our lifestyles one of the major issues? Use it once and then discard it? Research is mixed on the issues – I agree with that- but they are certainly cheaper assuming you use them for more than one child.
IIRC the energy saving is put at the same as driving 1000 miles less over 2 years for reusable. This assumed a variety of questionable assumptions though including buying a washing machine – as if only people with nappies use one.
I doubt the environmental impact will sway you as it is not massive –

Think about how they make disposable things.. not just nappies, but anything – say a waxed paper cup.

Someone in say Sweden gets into a truck and drives out to the woods where they plant a load of saplings.. then for the next 50 or so years people drive about checking on them, spraying pesticides and what not, then someone else comes along in a massive machine and fells it, drives it to a pulp mill where a big machine uses loads of leccy to make it into a paper material which is then shipped somewhere else to make paper, from where it's shipped somewhere else again to make a cup. Meanwhile, somewhere in the middle east someone's sucking oil out of the ground, sending it to a refinery where someome makes finer chemcicals out of it and someone else gets into a truck, drives it to a port and puts it on a ship. Then it's shipped around the world to the cup factory, the cup's coated, packed up and driven to another port where it gets shipped to our shores and driven to a warehouse. Then it gets unpacked and re-packed into a smaller box (made from cardboard from trees from say.. norway.. where someone felled the tree and ….) then it gets driven to a retailer, then driven to your office.. using diesel extracted from the ground in the middle east and refined using lots of power and so on and so on.

All so that you can grab one, take two swigs of cold water then toss it in the bin – without even thinking about it.

WHEREUPON someone has to come round and collect it along with the rest of your rubbish in a big truck powered by more diesel, and drive it somewhere discrete where they bury it in the ground.

Later that afternoon, you grab another, two swigs, toss it away. Then the next day, and the next.. meanwhile oil is being pumped, trees planted, felled, driven all over the place.. and so on.

Crazy isn't it?

Crazy isn't it?

Good for the economy though 😉

[retires to a safe distance]

And that, jon1973, is precisely why we are all so f*cked 🙂

Stopping all this cycling in bad weather is probably a good way to save on all that detergent/power/pollution when washing kit

Me? – I don't like polar bears so I'm not bothered

My brother did some business recently with a big landfill company.

The majority of landfill is sealed and actually doesnt rot at all. This firm regularly re-open landfills which are up to 30 years old…even the newspapers haven't rotted after 30 years so all this worry over nappies is a load of old shit, literally.

Are you sure it doesn't rot at all? I'd check with your brother's business colleagues on that one if I were you? That company isn't doing a good job if that is the case? They're not designed to be hermetically sealed, just controlled so that the gases released are controlled and contaminants don't leach into the groundwater. Not rotting at all is very different to rotting slowly. If it rots slowly that is even more of an argument for throwing less into a site.

Unfortunately the quickest way to break down rubbish would be to warm it up and get it wet. Surprisingly the prospect of warm wet rotting rubbish is not that popular?

Like this…

Yep, they're sealed to the point you can graze cattle on top!

The only decomposition is anaerobic and they siphon off the methane that's produced.

I imagine in 2000 years time there will be a neat pile of bio-degradable nappies and an archeologist will burn his lips on a McDonalds apple pie

Like I say, that is not the same as 'not rotting at all' and even more of an argument for reducing the amount of waste to landfill.

I imagine in 2000 years time there will be a neat pile of bio-degradable nappies and an archeologist will burn his lips on a McDonalds apple pie

And they both taste about the same…

Er, P&G also make Ariel, Fairy, Daz, Lenor and Bold (among others).

Point being that they should be pretty impartial between which one was "best" – apart from what's in it for the shareholders.

They must make far more from Pampers tho Rich? I mean it's what, £4-6 for a week's supply of pampers isn't it? Not really sure 😉 Against £5 or whatever for 4-6 weeks' worth of powder…

They must make far more from Pampers tho Rich? I mean it's what, £4-6 for a week's supply of pampers isn't it? Not really sure Against £5 or whatever for 4-6 weeks' worth of powder…

Depends – the margins might be much greater on the powder…

Unlikely there's much margin on either of those super high volume high competition product lines imo.. but then I know naff all about grocery retail 🙂

"Nappies, disposable or reusable?"

i grew out of them 22 odd years ago sorry.
reckon you probably should have by now too?

I've always been confused on the biodegradable nappy front.

My boys pampers is non-biodegrable, goes into landfill and sits there doing nothing much for 100 years

My mates boys biodegradable nappy, goes into landfill, degrades, creates methane, which escapes into the atmosphere and does it's bit as a greenhouse gas.

Which is best?

nb, one of the funniest things I've seen in the last couple of years was a bloke who tried to compost "biodegradable" nappies at home. The sight of him racking through a years worth of old nappies to remove the non-degradable tags and stretchy bits was something to see. It appeared that they were only 70% biodegradable!

Trb, the probem is there isnt' enough physical space for all the crap we throw away. It's been a big problem for many many years. A lot of councils are really struggling.

.the probem is there isnt' enough physical space for all the crap we throw away..

have you tried India?

Trb, the probem is there isnt' enough physical space for all the crap we throw away. It's been a big problem for many many years. A lot of councils are really struggling.

Agreed – but as nappies only account for 4% of it, I wouldn't worry. It's the other 96% we should be worrying about. That and the useless recycling programmes some councils have (Harrogate Council, I am talking to you).

Unlikely there's much margin on either of those super high volume high competition product lines imo.. but then I know naff all about grocery retail

Join the club. All I know is I'm gonna be in a world of sh1t 😀

trb. Both will decompose eventually only one will take a lot longer about it. Added to that the more biodegradable option will have been produced largely from renewable sources (taking up CO2) and less petrochemical products. But yeah turns out they're not 100% biodegradable and specifically don't recommend home composting! I'd not like to find that out a year down the line.

There simply must be physical space for all the stuff we throw away, it all came from somewhere. If there is a pile here then there is a great big hole the same size somewhere else.

On a seperate note, my twins did 9 craps yesterday and it went to landfill at 8:30am this morning

Yeah but MF, we need to reduce our rubnbish across the board. No point at all ignoring something you can change just because something else is worse.

At our house, the disposables we do use are about 40-50% of our total throwaway rubbish, and that's with using 1 a day sometimes two.

There simply must be physical space for all the stuff we throw away, it all came from somewhere

That's pretty daft. So you are saying we should take all our plastic bottles and shove them down a deep hole in the middle east? Take all our paper waste, make it into big tall sticks and stick it in the ground in Sweden? Take all our metal and leave it in quarries in Russia?

Smart lad!

Yeah but MF, we need to reduce our rubnbish across the board. No point at all ignoring something you can change just because something else is worse.

Agreed – we do recycle what we can in our area (glass, card etc). But Harrogate Council don't do plastic for some inexplicable reason (nearest place is 18 miles away). We also make firebricks from old newspapers.

I have said several times on this thread that we initially looked at re-usables, but given the (arguable) negligible benefits we decided we would take what was the easier option for us on that one.

Yes mate, I have read that several times.. but this is now a discussion about disposability in general not about you 🙂

we plan to use (mostly) washable. In fact a friend has just given me a load free. result.

Ermmm, actually it is a discussion about me 😉 and disposables it is, think they will fit in with our lifestyle and besides, I have ordered them now, all in £135 for a set that should see us through from "birth to potty".
If it works out then it is a bargain, if it doesn't it isn't a huge loss (am sure they will get some use).

£135 for a set of disposables? Do you mean re-usables?

Oh, ermmm, yea (damn, too late to edit it as well) I was just checking you were reading carefully? (most people clearly ignore most posts in a thread and someone has to go and read mine!!!)
Yes, with the £25 back from the council it comes in at £145 (late night maths let me down) for a set of reusables, these ones as it happens…