I’ve bookmarked this piece to read properly at a later date: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8655106/Im-starting-to-think-that-the-Left-might-actually-be-right.html

Glancing at the first par got me thinking – beware the sweeping generalisations about to follow.

So, I’ve just been to Paris for the weekend (Viva la Tour), and I was struck by the apparent lack of high street chainstores that we are so used to in the UK. And it made a really nice change.

Then I started to think (huge generalisations coming) that the French economy and politics is to the left of the UK in the main. And the right always tells us that only through a free economy as opposed to a controlled or planned economy like the French (might have).

So why is it that we don’t have the same choice of shops in the UK that they do in France? Why does there seem to be more diversity in their economy than in ours?

Has the right got it wrong?

And am I being overly cynical if I ask if the UK isn’t just a mess – it’s a high tax economy (like France or Scandic countries), but without any of the benefits of the genuinely left leaning countries.

Late night, ill-informed theorising and philosophising over…

Careful not to confuse the high street in a major capital city with high streets elsewhere in a country. If I visit London or Edinburgh as a tourist I can find lots of delightful little shops, but the people who live and work there shop in Tescos 🙂

I blame the grocer’s daughter.

10:30 on a school night? Got to be kidding.

You lightweight Stoner ……… everyone knows that politics is a late night pastime.

Protecting local shops is not a left / right political thing. The Netherlands has taken deliberate decisions to stop the supermarkets dominating their towns – tesco hardly has a presence nor do other supermarket chains and local shops thrive as dot the town centres as a result – however the Netherlands is a nice little social / Christian democratic consensus – in many ways quite a conservative (small c ) country.

3x 1 liners Ernie?

Arent we so just a pair of old men with no puff in us anymore?

where’s my ovaltine?

For this thread I predict –

Extreme loquacity (900 plus posts),
All manner of graphs and pie charts,
A massive change in thread direction,
Incivility,
A flounce,
Mod closure.

Your exceptions are high deluded.

Extreme loquacity (900 plus posts),
All manner of graphs and pie charts,
A massive change in thread direction,
Incivility,
A flounce,
Mod closure.

You could have saved yourself typing that list and just used two letters

I blame the grocer’s daughter.

There was some thing deeply ironic about the first female prime minister being quite right wing. But fair do’s to her in a male dominated political world she made it to the top, say what you want about her politics but as the first female to become prime minister she has my respect. Most people hate her for closing down a load of mines that were losing massive amounts of money and producing low grade coal.

Most people hate her for closing down a load of mines

I think theres a longer list than that 🙂

Using the word ‘Cancer’ to describe the inner city working classes is near the top of mine

I broke with the spirit of the thread and read the article and broadly agreed with it.

It has surprised me to read fellow defenders of the free press saying how sad they are that the News of the World closed. In its stupidity, narrowness and cruelty, and in its methods, the paper was a disgrace to the free press. No one should ever have banned it, of course, but nor should anyone mourn its passing. It is rather as if supporters of parliamentary democracy were to lament the collapse of the BNP

And when the banks that look after our money take it away, lose it and then, because of government guarantee, are not punished themselves, something much worse happens. It turns out – as the Left always claims – that a system purporting to advance the many has been perverted in order to enrich the few. The global banking system is an adventure playground for the participants, complete with spongy, health-and-safety approved flooring so that they bounce when they fall off. The role of the rest of us is simply to pay.

As for the plight of the eurozone, this could have been designed by a Left-wing propagandist as a satire of how money-power works. A single currency is created. A single bank controls it. No democratic institution with any authority watches over it, and when the zone’s borrowings run into trouble, elected governments must submit to almost any indignity rather than let bankers get hurt. What about the workers? They must lose their jobs in Porto and Piraeus and Punchestown and Poggibonsi so that bankers in Frankfurt and bureaucrats in Brussels may sleep easily in their beds.

this author is no left winger

One must always pray that conservatism will be saved, as has so often been the case in the past, by the stupidity of the Left. The Left’s blind faith in the state makes its remedies worse than useless. But the first step is to realise how much ground we have lost, and that there may not be much time left to make it up.

Rural France = Farmers market.

Rural Britain = Spar.

Most people hate her for closing down a load of mines
I think theres a longer list than that

Using the word ‘Cancer’ to describe the inner city working classes is near the top of mine

Being a prime minister must give you epic opportunities for trolling. you can troll whole countries!!

My French highstreet is nearly as full of chains as UK high streets, it’s just that they are different chains. There are independants but they are fewer and further between than 20 years ago.

As I walked along it last week with an English guest I asked her to guess the origin of the chains: FNAC, French; H&M, Sweedish; Zara, Spanish; Qicksilver, French; C&A, Dutch (originally); Go Sport, French; Footlocker, ? ; Etam, Camaïeu, Jennyfer; French. In the East of France I’ve noticed a few German chains appearing – New Yorker and Deichmann (my favourite shoe shop). Two of my local DIY stores belong to the Kingfisher group, Casto and Brico Depot.

closing down a load of mines that were losing massive amounts of money

At the start of the pit closures British coal was the cheapest deep mined coal in the world apart from South African coal. The difference was that other countries, such Australia, Poland, and Russia, very heavily subsidised their coal industry, which was something the UK government was not prepared to do. And these countries still do, eg :

UK complaints fuel coal subsidies debate

“Around half a million tonnes of Polish coal are being imported into the UK every year for domestic use and for power stations. The coal is being sold at world market prices of around 36 ecu per tonne, even though production costs are higher and transport costs to the UK are estimated at around 18 ecu per tonne. “Export prices are below those on the Polish market,” said one British official”.

The ‘dash for gas’ played a significant role too.

All of which was, needless to say, very short-sighted and politically motivated.

No pressure to cut UK coal imports

“One deep-shaft underground coal mine could cost up to 400 million pounds to develop and would take several years to come to full production, mining industry sources said”

Crisis fear as North Sea gas ‘runs out’

“BRITAIN is facing a future of winter power cuts and soaring electricity bills as supplies of North Sea gas dwindle.”

They are both wrong. 🙄

ernie_lynch – Member
You lightweight Stoner ……… everyone knows that politics is a late night pastime

Do you mind? It’s lunchtime!

muppetWrangler – Member
Rural France = Farmers market.

You’ve not spent much time in rural France then! Don’t believe the marketing image that it’s all Jean de Florette loveliness.

What is the fascination with local independent shops?
I’ve just returned from a rural bit of west Wales, where the nearest Tesco is a full 30 minutes drive away.
The local shops are shit! Lack of choice, high prices and surly customer service.
A nice bright shiny Tesco would have been an oasis.

The local shops are shit! Lack of choice, high prices and surly customer service.

What is the fascination with local independent shops?

Small businesses distribute wealth better, it would be a good ideology for all sides of the political spectrum to support small local businesses. Unfortunately its big business that can buy political influence.

What is the fascination with local independent shops?

Its not a fascination, just cold reality. If you send your money with local businesses the profit stays local and gets spent locally again and again. If you buy from a chain the check out girl and a middle manager get a mediocre wage and the rest of your money leaves town, or even leaves the country.

I was walking through the East End of Glasgow with a friend and he waves at a guy that drives past in a porsche. “Who do you know who drives a porsche?” I asked him.

“Didn’t to recognise him? Thats the guy who flips burgers in MacDonalds”

There are two Mc/MacDonalds on the high st, practically next door one another, one being from an international chain and the other is a locally owned bakers, that also sells hot rolls. The guy that flips burgers in MacDonalds owns MacDonalds. Lives locally, spends locally. Someone from McDonalds drives a nice car and lives in a nice house, but the chance is its nobody you’ll see behind the counter.

One of the things that led to Ireland getting into the financial mess its in was hosting big international corporations and conflating the money that those corps handle with money entering the economy. Companies like Pfizer handle megabucks there (all the world’s Viagra is manufactured there) but after payroll and tax, all the rest of those megabucks were going straight back out of the country

Protecting local shops is not a left / right political thing. The Netherlands has taken deliberate decisions to stop the supermarkets dominating their towns – tesco hardly has a presence nor do other supermarket chains and local shops thrive as dot the town centres as a result – however the Netherlands is a nice little social / Christian democratic consensus – in many ways quite a conservative (small c ) country.

The difference – well, one of a huge list of differences – between France and The Swamplands is that in France you can still buy stuff: big supermarkets exist but there is a place for small shops offering personal service and slightly different goods. For example, our local butcher gave good advice about what to buy, and sold pre-prepared bbq skewers. The local market sold fresh chickens brought from Normandy farms. In Holland you’re lucky to find a supermarket with a single battery chicken if you go after lunch. The French value the human interaction that accompanies shopping in local shops whereas the Dutch will sacirifice anything to saving a fraction of a penny.

Real photos of the biggest Dutch supermarket

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlZ9d-g1fA8[/video]

DP

If you send your money with local businesses the profit stays local and gets spent again and again.

Really? So a successful businessman only spends his profits locally?

My post was part tongue in cheek, but part as a result of my experiences over the past month or so.
In St David’s there is a local independent supermarket, a butchers, fruit & veg shop and deli.

The service in the butchers is good, but the prices are high for bog standard meat etc.
The service on the other shops is poor with long queues, disintersted staff and in the case of the sm too few tills open.
The prices are also high. There is outcry at the potential of a Tesco opening just down the road in Solva.

IME the independents that provide a good product at a reasonable price will do well and stay open. The poorly run expensive miserable experience shops will probably lose out to Tesco.

IME the independents that provide a good product at a reasonable price will do well and stay open

In my experience exactly those shops will have to foresight to close before the supermarket bankrupts them. When I lived in the highlands the best shops closed their doors the evening before Tesco opened theirs

Really? So a successful businessman only spends his profits locally?

Not only, but some, any, is better than non.

DP – bloody phone!

Edited

The highlands is probably another place where local independents have been able to operate in effective monopolies. Tesco may improve choice and cut prices.

and replace local businesses with part time jobs on minimum pay.

Today then. I picked up a loaf of bread at the local boulangerie because it’s nice bread. We’ve been buying there so long that they know we always buy “deux pains pas trop cuits” so raising two fingers gets that leaving time to find out where the lady is going on holiday (Portugal to visit family).

To Leclerc after a pool session for a starter for the strip light. I don’t like the place but they have most things you need to stay alive. On to Lidl for the food shop, it might have been Leader Price but the chocolate is better in Lidl. Then a local independant bearing supplier. They didn’t have the bearing in the right width which would have required bodging with washers and it cost only 2e less than the pedals I’m trying to salvage – no deal. No need to go to the butcher’s, there’s enough meat in the fridge.

How independant are the local independants? My bike business relied heavily on big manufacturers/importers/distributors. It’s the same with many local businesses. If prices are higher it’s often because there is an extra tier in the distribution system compared with the supermarkets.

MSP – Member
and replace local businesses with part time jobs on minimum pay.
POSTED 4 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST

Why should I subsidise local independents? If the work isn’t required, then folk shouldn’t be overcharging to continue doing it.

In busy cities where there is enough demand, the local shops will survive if they provide something above and beyond the supermarkets. In some rural areas, Tesco can increase choice (of produce), cut costs and end up being a bit greener.

Because local independents are also local customers, you are more likely to benefit from a flourishing local economy than a large tesco store. You may not see it straight away, but 10 years down the line the lower local incomes will far offset the immediate price benefits of the supermarkets.

I’m not so sure about greener. When a village shop closes all the villagers drive to the nearest supermarket. That’s more CO2 than one delivery van and an extra fridge or two to run.

Some local local shops buy some of their produce in the big supermarkets then sell it with a mosest mark up. It’s cheaper than buying it from the wholesaler.

Having worked for a major international food supplier I can assure you that local shops aren’t “overcharging”, their margins are modest. It’s the abuse of their semi-monoplistic or cartel buying position that means the big supermarkets get better prices often to the detriment of producers. If you like buying tasteless strawberries keep buying the cheap Spanish ones from Tescos. That way you can be sure the British producers will go out of business.

MSP – I see the theory, but in my St David’s example, the flourishing local economy isn’t there to begin with. Just high prices, indifference and surly customer service.

muppetWrangler – Member

Rural France = Farmers market.

Rural Britain = Spar.

I lived in Argeles Gazost for a bit, (sort of shopping centre for much ruralness, pop. only 1200, usually whizzed through on the TDF between Aspin and Tourmalet)

We had a weekly market AND a spar! Only difference was that there were no fags in our Spar (licensing is different) and you could choose a trout from a big fishtank -the checkout person would fish it out and bash it on the head for you. 😀

The independents will be dearer because they can’t screw their suppliers into the deck.

grantus – Member
The independents will be dearer because they can’t screw their suppliers into the deck.

POSTED 12 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

It’s not just the price though. I’d be happy to pay the independent prices, if you got a bit better service for your cash.

Why should I subsidise local independents?

It’s not just the price though. I’d be happy to pay the independent prices, if you got a bit better service for your cash.

Its make your mind up time.

Its make your mind up time.

😳

There is a fine line though – decent service + small premium is acceptable, I just object to having to pay the same premium to be scowled at.