Is carbon affected by cold?

I suddenly had this thought while on today’s ride as I crossed a frozen rutted track. I know we have had various debates about carbons strength and suitability for bike parts but would extreme cold cause problems?

I suspect not – aren’t the new Boeing wings made from it?

It gets a tad chilly at 30,000ft 🙂

I’d be a bit wary about fording a river of liquid nitrogen, but you’re probably ok at -1C 🙂

Dave

actually its quite warm in the sun at 30,000ft, next time open a window and put your hand out
just to be on safe side you can post me the frame for “evaluation”

The properties of carbon reinforced plastics do change with temp (we have a composites specialist in here somewhere) but +- the temps you will ride in it’s not an issue. Some types of steel get brittle in the cold (and in the temps you might ride!) so there’s nothing unusual there.

FWIW last time I was at 30,000ft the outside temp was registering as -50C.

Are the properties of carbon (Or any other material for that matter) affected by temperature- YES

Does the range of temps your bike actually experiences make any measurable difference to the ultimate or fatigue strength of the frame- NO

Don’t worry about it 🙂

It’ll be fine,

Don’t google brittle fracture of carbon steel though if you’re woried about riding your niche bikes in the cold*.

*scaremongering 😉

The carbon itself will be ok but the resin holding it together could be a problem. Boeing test these things so the planes will be ok. No idea how much thought bike manufacturers put into that kind of testing.

It’s probably not the temperature that will kill the frame anyway. I use similar chemistry resins in paints and its the (rapid) thermal cycling that kills things, especially if you add moisture in to the equation.

There were a couple of cases in Canada where people’s road bikes filled with water from washing or whatever, put bike away over winter. Water freezes, expands and chainstays go bang. Otherwise I’d not worry!

njee20 – so really nothing to do with the material as much as frame design?

most of the stuff on brittle fracture of carbon steels and cr-mo alloy steels dates from 1950’s and 1960’s when steel making practices were very different and phosphor levels were relatively high – “modern” electric arc steelmaking drives down phosphor and this lowers the ductile/brittle transition temperature below the sort of temps you get in the northsea winters so oil rig valves and stuff don’t fail like they used to – cro-mo alloy steel frames should be good down to minus 30degs C or so

Water will be more of an issue, not just the freezing mentioned above, but galvanic corrosion between the carbon and the steel bits, like the bottom bracket shell. Whatever you do, don’t wee down the seat tube, as that’s even worse.
(Not sure how true, maybe a myth, but some toilets in carbon bodied planes have fallen out, due to this. But writing that down, it does sound like an urban myth.)

I’m made of carbon and I can categorically state that I was affected by the cold on last might’s ride.
The solid ground made for really fast Riding, though 😉

Er, I think the plane would crash, or at least experience catastrophic decompression.

I’m made of carbon and I can categorically state that I was affected by the cold on last might’s ride.
The solid ground made for really fast Riding, though

FFS. Not the same though is it Bob, because you are not held together by resin are you! Unless there is something you are not telling us….. 😕

Most of my windsurfing kit is carbon fibre based.
Boards, fins, masts, booms, sail battens.

I never use it in sub-zero temperatures.

Er, I think the plane would crash, or at least experience catastrophic decompression.

Depends, is it on a conveyor belt?

it may get a tiny bit stiffer (and likewise a tiny bit more squishy in hot conditions) but as above – don’t worry about it.

I’d worry more about metal parts and welds in the cold. As well as planes and yachts and ski equipment etc etc we make cryogenic centrifuge rotors out of carbon fibre because no other material will have the same strength to weight.

As for the plane toilet thing – I’m pretty sure the problem was aluminium corroding away due to toilet cleaners or men missing the toilet. There is only 2 civil aircraft with full composite bodies and they have only just been released. Inner bits will be composite but from memory it was an aluminium problem.

You can get carbon fibre skis and poles. Where we’re going it could be as cold as -25C, so not much worry about getting too cold, eh? 8)

FFS. Not the same though is it Bob, because you are not held together by resin are you! Unless there is something you are not telling us…..

Do you think maybe he was joking? 😉

I never use it in sub-zero temperatures

Thats nothing to do with carbon though is it.

Most of my windsurfing kit is carbon fibre based.
Boards, fins, masts, booms, sail battens.

I never use it in sub-zero temperatures.

Ah, but then most of my XC ski kit is carbon fiber based.
Skis, poles, boots.

I never rarely use it in above zero temperatures.

Do you think maybe he was joking?

Err, do you think maybe I was joking too? 😐

Thats nothing to do with carbon though is it.

Actually, once when I was younger and eagerer, I did have ice form on the mast when I was sailing, and I have gone (more recently) when there was snow on the ground.

I suspect not – aren’t the new Boeing wings made from it?

Yes the new Boeing Dreamliner has carbon wings.

But, and the’s always a but, to avoid it getting too cold the wings have an ice protection system, imaginatively called WIPS. Basically it’s an electric blanket that keeps them warm.

The electric blanket control work was done by a company in Britain – yay. That’s the end of the good news.

The WIPS was one of the big reasons for the delay in flying the Dreamliner – oops. IIRC Flight International covered the fact that Boeing were sending lots of top level managers to a poky little electronics company in Cambridge to sort them out.

nick3216 – Member
I suspect not – aren’t the new Boeing wings made from it?
Yes the new Boeing Dreamliner has carbon wings.

But, and the’s always a but, to avoid it getting too cold the wings have an ice protection system, imaginatively called WIPS. Basically it’s an electric blanket that keeps them warm.

The electric blanket control work was done by a company in Britain – yay. That’s the end of the good news.

The WIPS was one of the big reasons for the delay in flying the Dreamliner – oops. IIRC Flight International covered the fact that Boeing were sending lots of top level managers to a poky little electronics company in Cambridge to sort them out.

I don’t think that is to keep the wings lovely and snug and warm.

It is just electric heating fitted to the leading edges to prevent the build up of ice which can cause serious aerodynamic problems.

Helicopters have had electric leading edge heating for a long time and don’t forget the best rotor blades are composite and have been for years. The best modern helicopters would not exist without composite blades and a blade is just about as critical a component as you can get.

PS the dreamliner fuselage is composite too.

I don’t think that is to keep the wings lovely and snug and warm.

I know that. You know that. You know I know that.

It is just electric heating fitted to the leading edges to prevent the build up of ice

I’ve double checked and I’m sure I called it an “ice protection system”. Yep. In fact it’s there three times now now thanks to your full quote and further clarification

I’m not aiming my language at aerospace engineers but trying to couch it in language a Singletrack forumtard* would understand and hopefully “get” the basic principles. I see I have carelessly used at least one 5 syllable word that may undo my efforts. Shit.

* Another word chosen deliberately and carefully for it’s connotations.

don’t get your knickers in a twist.

The way I read what you put someone could have got the idea that it was to protect the whole wing from getting cold and ice build up and in the context of this thread could imply a material problem.

I was simply explaining it was not due to the concerns the OP had which is what you failed to do 😉

Composites are also used is satellite construction and the last ime I heard, they get very cold. The expansion rates of the composite have to matched to the contraction rates of any alloys they’e bonded too as well, which I’m told can make it quite interesting sometimes.

The way I read what you put someone could have got the idea that it was to protect the whole wing from getting cold and ice build up and in the context of this thread could imply a material problem.

Me too.

Err, do you think maybe I was joking too?

To be fair, this is one of the few places on earth where something so manifestly unfunny might actually pass as a joke… But under normal circumstances, no.

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Is carbon fibre affected by the cold?[/url] by nick3216[/url], on Flickr

Bar end cursed by this thread.

http://www.abdmatrix.com/phcdl/upload/failure/Effects%20of%20Environment%20on%20Fracture%20Toughness%20of%20Woven%20Carbon-Epoxy%20Composite.pdf

I’ve been resisting posting here, Macavity’s post above is the only one worth reading. Although there are other papers on this which you could find, this one pretty much encompasses all you need to know.