In

Likely out. Agree with gordimhor above. CAP boils my piss too.

Of course the worry is that even if we come out the Tories will sign us up for TTIP.

Looks like the “In” votes has won to enslave everyone … 😮

BritLand has finally gone to the dogs.

Oh well I have tried to warn you Brits that the EU bureaucratic machine will reel you in slowly … catchy monkey! You are moving into a very dangerous ground for your children but then you would be dead by the time they suffer.

As a legal alien I can feel the tide slowly turning against BritLand but the truth is you have to thank your own blood for offering you to the lion’s den. Surprise!!! 😆

The PC and the bureaucratic system will soon turn you into a non-entity. You will not have your own identity unless you are of certain religion that commit mass killings.

Never mind, even if 99% of voters vote in … I am going vote Out!

Let’s see how many centuries will the PC mentality last … 😆

If anyone things we can get trade agreements done and locked in at incredibly favourable terms overnight is dreaming. As mentioned above to sell into the EU we would have to follow all the EU rules and regulations but have no say in any of it.
Australia recently/finally signed off on a free trade deal with China, years of negotiating on heaps of stuff and lots of compromise, so if you really want to start each one of these from scratch with all the other sides thinking it’s time to get more out of it then go for it.

As many have said the main issue with the UK and EU is a reluctance to get involved properly. Hanging back and trying to only pick the fun bits never works.
Not sure if this one is urban myth but it does sum a lot up
When the EU made all fire extinguishers red and put a symbol on them to identify them rather than the UK colour coded system the British delegation kicked off and pointed out that the UK had a much better system. The response from the rest of the committee was that it would have been great to have come along to the start of the process and suggest that then not complain at the end having not taken part in the process at all….

I also get the feeling that if chewkw managed to declare the independent state of chewkw with him as the only resident and government he would still hate the government.

I’m confused by it all, can anyone answer these questions?
1) How much do we pay in exactly and how much is granted back to us?
2) How has being in the EU benefitted British workers?
3) Cameron’s ‘deal’ will only be bad for British workers rights right?
4) How broken is the European parliament exactly, it seems pretty much on it’s last legs to me
5) I’m of to bed

1)http://www.statista.com/statistics/316964/net-contributions-to-eu-budget-by-united-kingdom-uk-to-eu-european-union/ 10.8 Billion for 2015/16.
As for what the UK gets here is a summary from 2012
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/nov/22/eu-budget-spending-contributions-european-union
2) British Workers? Maximum working week? Stronger economy, better trade terms, export routes etc. all these things are good for British Workers.
3) No idea
4) Why do you think it’s broken?

In. I think it’s a good thing both economically (as someone who runs a business which trades internationally) and in keeping the EU balanced in its membership, rather than becoming even more Germany-centric.

3) Cameron’s ‘deal’ will only be bad for British workers rights right?

Why? Its puts a brake [ lets ignore the spin for now] on immigrant.Its says nothign at all about workers rights

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2016/02/02-letter-tusk-proposal-new-settlement-uk/

What is your exact concern?

4) How broken is the European parliament exactly, it seems pretty much on it’s last legs to me

Very little point answering a leading question like that

They are all elected so one massive plus on our system and they use PR so I would argue that is two.
I dont think it is either broken or about to die and I have no idea how anyone could cogently argue the later.

I have given this some thought and I have decide at present I am a tentative yes to stay

The main reason is that I cannot see myself voting the same way as the more vocal anti EU lot. Apparently they are trying to persuade Gove to lead it so two campaigns one led by Farage and one by Gove. I just cannot see me siding with them- the debate on STW has been far more rational and less hate based than the wider debate.

Whilst we’re at it, we’d have been much better off IN the euro. Our position would be similar to Germany’s. I just sent some time working there, my god it’s civilised. And the whole Euro project would be in better shape with us in it.

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In
It’s a tragic state of affairs when either Cameron or Farage will claim credit for the way I vote. 👿
The EU project needs a lot of reforms & surely the UK has more influence being a member of the EU rather than trying to influence things from outside the EU?

Lots here saying they would vote IN because the Tory government would be worse.

If so. Don’t vote conservative next time.

By voting OUT, atleast you are allowing yourself to directly influence who gets to pass powers that affect you. They may not always listen, but laws from the EU are made by people you have no control over.
Let’s try to establish a democracy I say … So OUT.

The Greece affair is the clincher for me – EU leaders (Schultz, Juncker) trying to engineer a coup, ECB acting politically, beyond its remit. There is nothing democratic about the EU, and nothing good for the citizen, as the TTIP will soon demonstrate.

do you think folk ho said that voted Tory

The second point is as true here as there

Lots of lords get to amend and pass laws, re write them and serve in the actual govt
We did not vote for them either

All the arguments against anti democratic EU who we have no say over- its basically not true*- can be applied equally [ as less favourably due to the Lords, the head of state being due to birth etc] to the UK

* The EU has lots of convulted ways of voting for things and some are more democratic than other but I guarantee for every single EU incident I can easily give you a UK counterpart from “unelected bureaucrats” – Ofsted, CPS]

as the TTIP will soon demonstrate.

Given we have aTory givt and they want free trade – its part of thier instance/negotiations- do you really think leaving means we wont have something similar?

Honestly?

I dont like TTIP either but i think its hard to argue the Tories are against it and that leaving the EU means we are saved from such agreements

They may not always listen, but laws from the EU are made by people you have no control over.

Apart from all those MEPs we elect and vote on all the laws !?!!?

I dont like TTIP either but i think its hard to argue the Tories are against it and that leaving the EU means we are saved from such agreements

Point was its another nstance of the EU not being as cuddly as some would have you believe

In

If Rupert Murdoch, the daily mail and the telegraph are so desperate for the UK to leave, then its probably good for the average person for us to be in

its another nstance of the EU not being as cuddly as some would have you believe

Its not different to our what our own parliament would do so I am not sure how it can be used to prove the EU is bad. We seem to agree its as bad as our own.

the EU towards Greece has made me question how much it is in the pocket of global multinationals and banks.

This would be a very strong argument for leaving were it not for the fact that the people wanting us to leave want us to be more in the pocket of corporations and the finance industry. As has been said many times already by others. Farage and the nut-job tories are not campaigning to leave because they think the EU doesn’t do enough for the average man in the street. Voting to leave on this basis is an extreme case of turkeys voting for christmas.

And the whole Euro project would be in better shape with us in it.

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/quote]

I’d have thought that another economy on the scale of France and Germany being part of the Euro would self-evidently make it more secure and stable. We’ll never know though.

We’d have destroyed the whole thing if we’d been involved. We’d have been like a monstorous Greece.

Out, in? Don’t care, but I’d be fascinated to see what out looks like.

We’d have been like a monstorous Greece.

Still peddling the ridiculous myth that the UK finances were on a par with Greece? You won the election. Twice. You don’t need to bother with that fiction any more 🙂

I didn’t stand, or vote…

I’m in, the EU is far from perfect but I haven’t seen anything on the out case other than some generic little Englander bigotry and bollocks. No positive vision of what the UK will look like. We owe a lot to the EU for human rights and consumer law for starters, which a tory govt would never have implemented, or allowed to stand if implemented by others.

Oh yes, employment legislation too.

owe a lot to the EU for human rights

Europe owes us a lot for human rights, not the other way around.

Just coz Churchill got his attorney general to draw up the hra doesn’t mean we’d be implimenting them without EU enforcement

Europe owes us a lot for human rights

Adds Europe to list of areas where we civilised the savages
Ignores the historical fact the treaty was done by the Council of Europe and that the International declaration of Human rights predates its and accepts we gave them the concept

I’ll be voting for out, mainly because I feel the EU has mutated into something very different from the institution that the UK voted to join all those years ago. Plus any organisation that is so resistant to change or the renegotiation of terms as the EU appears to be is one that is not worth being a part of.

Besides, change isn’t always a bad thing and I don’t see why unshackling ourselves from a declining economic arena would be a bad thing. Western Europe is no longer the economic and industrial powerhouse it used to be, neither is America for that matter. We should be exploring more innovative ways to make money with partners in India, South America and Asia.

Out. No net benefit to membership. Too many critical issues with membership.

We’re such a huge export market for mainland EU that we’d still trade freely. Stories of economic woes are scaremongering and we’d reduce overheads significantly.

We’re such a huge export market for mainland EU that we’d still trade freely.

I love the way everyone just assumes this will happen. Of course we’d still trade, but even a small increase in the cost of trading with the rest of Europe would have a significant economic impact. It doesn’t take much of a change to tip the economy into recession. When you consider that trade will inevitably decrease, and the supply of cheap labour from abroad will be cut off, then it doesn’t take much of imagination to predict what will happen.

Please remember this is not a left or right issue. Tony Benn, Michael Foot and many others respected leaders of the left disagreed with membership as it undermined the sovereignty of our elected parliament (Corbyn used to espouse this view until recently). Unfortunately Enoch Powell was also a proponent of this view. Historically the tories were pro membership.
EU membership is now not about economics its about the future of democracy of the UK, that short sighted in my view. If you move the center of government further away from the people don’t be surprised if people feel unrepresented (yes it can be bad here but we can protest at the gates of Downing St). The MEP’s have no binding power and mostly get to vote on binding EU law only when the commission put it in front of them. If the commission thinks they’ll not win a vote of MEP’s then there is no voting opportunity. If the MEP’s vote against the wishes of the commission, that vote is ignored.
My concern for the long term about the EU is that for well meaning reasons we are walking into a totalitarian state. I’d prefer to be in a reformed EU that respects the sovereignty of the various elected governments, like them or not at least we can protest and vote who our leaders are.
I have experience in how the EU commission makes its laws and have found it to be a very frustrating experience (and interesting). One outstanding thing I have learned at the beginning of these processes is that the representative have almost always made up their minds of the outcome before the start of the consultations (bit like the UK). Once they bring a directive into law even if proved to be incorrect in purpose, it’s almost impossible to get it changed.

Sorry to ramble on.

edit: spelling issues, probably more

When you consider that trade will inevitably decrease

I love the way everyone just assumes this will happen.

mikewsmith – Member
If anyone things we can get trade agreements done and locked in at incredibly favourable terms overnight is dreaming. …

As many have said the main issue with the UK and EU is a reluctance to get involved properly. Hanging back and trying to only pick the fun bits never works.

… identify them rather than the UK colour coded system the British delegation kicked off and pointed out that the UK had a much better system. The response from the rest of the committee was that it would have been great to have come along to the start of the process and suggest that then not complain at the end having not taken part in the process at all….

I also get the feeling that if chewkw managed to declare the independent state of chewkw with him as the only resident and government he would still hate the government.

That happens in commercial business dealings all the time so how the naive never sees what’s coming astonish me … You do have many business experts don’t you? Oh hang on … you industries are slowly disappearing.

Also negotiation and dealings are there to set standards. This is a winner takes all scenario or in BritLand case they gangbang you.

BritLand lot has just be bullied into EUSSR club without knowing or you don’t know how to response because you give in so quickly with a slight hint of fear of a slight pain …

It is Not really difficult, just like club membership you get people who abuse or make stooopid decision, playing the system but nothing can be done.

You raise your question(s) and concern(s) during the EUSSR club meeting but the majority rules means they gangbang you in your arse to ensure you comply with the rules. The majority apply pressure and you are now being gang bang … obvious is obvious.

They have been salivating for you but could not do so when you had strong leadership but as it is nowadays you BritLand has such weak leaders the time is right for gang banging you.

The description of your current leaders:

1. Cameron the young weak naive,
2. JC(not Jeusus Christ) the old mule out of ideas,
3. Farage the loud with wrong tactics,
4. Lib Dem the limping dream seekers,
5. Green Party the socially lost,
6. SNP the freedom from Scotland who prefer be eaten alive by EUSSR,
7. The Welsh party that is just juicy fat lamb for slaughter.

I might be amongst the few that want out but one thing I am certain of is that I can sleep well that nobody is going to gangbang me in the arse nor have I need comply to someone’s else silly rules because they want to manipulate to dominate.

Some of the smaller nations are getting gangbang by the few larger nations in the club but BritLand will be the next … time is right to gangbang this lot (putting pressure to open up and making the country’s insignificant) because they are running out of pleasure (poor economy) in the smaller nations.

If you still have not woken up to the fact that joining the EU Club means letting others dictate full terms to you then you are delusional. Yes, some argue that you still have to comply to their club rules etc … Well at least you can also start your own club with own rules and I am sure there are many who want to join.

The way the “In” vote is polling on STW I can only said that your own blood just sold you out.

Many years of political correctness have resulted in creating drones with very little ability to think critically.

🙄

Out.

chewkw like any good politician from what I have read you have used a lot of words and effectively said sweet FA.

I love the way everyone just assumes this will happen.

Go on then, explain how trade with the EU might increase after the removal of free trade and the introduction of tariffs.

ninfan – Member

I think that the biggest clue comes form the fact that so many of the people who are saying “out” would be a disaster are the same people who, a few years ago, were telling us that it would be a disaster if we didn’t join the Euro…

That guy that interprets opinion polls who didn’t come out of GE 2015 looking quite as much of a plonker as the others was on R4 yesterday morning pointing out amongst other things that graduates seem more in favour of staying in. Similar observations and exciting graph content 3/4 of the way down here:

Telegraph linkyhttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12086589/EU-referendum-Who-in-Britain-wants-to-leave-and-who-wants-to-remain.html

Selfishly, I am worried about ttip and what would happen long term to my job and employers (health), but also about future trade agreements and workers/trade union legislation from a far right government who already act like they won by a landslide. Even under the EU we have somehow managed to have some of the ‘worst’ trade union legislation in europe (‘worst’ if you are a member of or work for a trade union I mean btw).

Also selfishly I have dual nationality so if UK is out, there is nothing stopping me asserting my right to live, work, claim benefits and enjoy the securities of Europe whatever happens and however silly it gets in future.

I fear that however maturely we debate it on here, for most of the public it will boil down to a couple easily soundbitten and fairly unrepresentative points. Also I predict that the motivation to get out of the house and physically put a vote in will be far higher amongst the ‘out’ side than the ‘in’ or ‘oh I suppose we should stay in’ side, or/and that the supposed ‘shy tory’ phenomenom will reporoduce itself with ‘shy euroskeptics’ and opinion polls will predct a lower ‘out’ vote than we will actually get on the day.

From debate on here as much as anything else I am leaning towards ‘in’, pending Cameron’s ‘deal’ of course -and looking forward to the possibility of agreeing with CMD and a few of the big hitterz on here for once.

mikewsmith – Member
chewkw like any good politician from what I have read you have used a lot of words and effectively said sweet FA.

I don’t know that much about FA but for EUSSR I can see them so clearly … 😯 Not sure why perhaps I have been hanging out with ZM bureaucrats too much …

yes I’m sure you do

I might be amongst the few that want out but one thing I am certain of is that I can sleep well that nobody is going to gangbang me in the arse nor have I need comply to someone’s else silly rules because they want to manipulate to dominate.

Go on then, explain how trade with the EU might increase after the removal of free trade and the introduction of tariffs.

I was teasing really but obviously I can’t explain how it would go any more than you or anyone else can. We’re all just guessing and there is little point pretending otherwise.