mrwhyte – Member

Do people seriously think we could go it alone and have the same negotiating power as the EU? they are the single biggest trading bloc in the world, with huge purchasing power.

Drivel; we are still the 5th largest economy by GDP in the world, the EU will not want to loose their share of our business. There are far smaller nations going it alone, quite happily: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29

dragon – Member

We sit here on our high horse criticising the EU for struggling to solve some of these incredibly difficult problems whilst doing nothing to help them.

Not strictly true we pledged £2.3 billion and have ~ 3 ships in the med picking people up.

I’d argue there hasn’t been a coordinated EU response, we have Germany doing one thing and others doing something else. In fact the lack of joined up thinking is making a big problem worse.

[/quote]Our government made the tough calls quickly and decisively. Through Labour, LibCon and now Conservative governments, we have endured varying (real) degrees of austerity. Many EU nations, most notable France did not and are coasting toward major problems.

we are still the 5th largest economy by GDP in the world, the EU will not want to loose their share of our business.

the comparison is between the entire EU and us and we are way way behind them- 3 v 18.5 from your link – though we need to take the 3 of from us so its just over 5 times our size.

Clearly they are larger so that means they can much easier lose our trade than they ours.
Why do people think they will be gutted to see us go and that we have the stronger negotiating hand? Its madness to think this.

we know we will survive – no one is suggesting we will fold as a country the question is , economically, is it to our advantage to be in the EU or out of it.

I just also read that the wording of the question is very important. Apparently it’s looking like something like the following:-

“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”

I wonder how many people will answer “Yes”? 😳

I’m not suggesting that the EU is blameless in any of these situations, that wasn’t the point I was trying to make…

Of course not, but there is still the suggestion that the EU are somehow under strain and somewhat unfortunate victims, when it could be suggested that they cause many of their own problems.
I like the idea of a united europe, but not as it stands. A dictatorial super government it should not be.

Forza, source for that question is?

…and which EU is under discussion, the old one or the future one?

teamhurtmore – Member

…and which EU is under discussion, the old one or the future one? Key issue; my take is that, Germany excepted, more the Europe is in decline than economic ascent.

That’s true, but my meaning was more to do with the old EU without fiscal/political union or the future one with it?

piemonster – Member

Forza, source for that question is?

7th paragraph

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32810887

If the UK isn’t willing to take part in the EU properly, it should leave it.

Doe that go for everyone – theres plenty of EU countries who floit and ignore the rules and just get away with it. If We were had the same attitude nobody would be considering leaving.

Much quicker to list the countries that follow/have ever followed the rules!

Forza, ta very much

Why do people think they will be gutted to see us go and that we have the stronger negotiating hand?

only 8 of the 28 EU nations are net financial contributors to the EU budget, the UK is the third biggest one.

thats a pretty strong negotiating hand.

thats a pretty strong negotiating hand.

You would think so, but it isn’t. Every time negotiation has been attempted, it’s been a case of “the EU is not a la carte” (in other words shut up and give us your money)

konabunny – Member
I think that the biggest clue comes form the fact that so many of the people who are saying “out” would be a disaster are the same people who, a few years ago, were telling us that it would be a disaster if we didn’t join the Euro…

Who specifically are you talking about?
The CBI, for one, I understand.
Oh, and I’m very definitely for out. No question about it.
And I’m not going to engage in some long-running discourse about why, I really can’t be arsed.

The CBI, for one, I understand.

Yep, add on Mandelson, Clarke, Blair etc.

My vote is out, last time the country had one (or so I am led to believe) was the mid 70’s and that was a vote for the common market agreement, europe has changed beyond recognition and we are still here on a 70’s vote. I am probably wrong and will no doubt get hained for my view but our country poors millions into europe every single day, our way of life is goverend more and more by a distant organisation that will never be remotely in touch with our daily lives and we continuosly have it shoveled down our throats rules from europe. I am British and proud I am not a European!

I’d argue there hasn’t been a coordinated EU response, we have Germany doing one thing and others doing something else. In fact the lack of joined up thinking is making a big problem worse.

What we have is Germany, whether wisely or not (probably for another debate), trying to “do its bit” to help the migrant crisis. Whether you agree with Germany’s actions doesn’t alter the fact that they are clearly not acting entirely in their own national interest. Every part of the UK’s relationship with the EU is judged on how it affects our own self interest. This is not a helpful attitude for a member of the EU to have, as it contributes greatly to the continued lack of “joined up thinking”.
I’m not suggesting other EU nations aren’t behaving in the same way, I’m suggesting that the EU has become about more than a simple cost-benefit analysis. If we aren’t prepared to behave in a more co-operative, assistive manner with a better Europe as our collective goal, there’s no point being in the EU.

theres plenty of EU countries who floit and ignore the rules and just get away with it. If We were had the same attitude nobody would be considering leaving.

SOURCe – another one of those myths

the UK is the third biggest one[net contributor].

thats a pretty strong negotiating hand.
SO we just pulled that money away from them and we are now trying to negotiate favourable trade terms whilst leaving and not contributing anything to the EU

Yes they will be bending over backwards to make sure we get exactly what we want in that negotiation
😆

Its gives us some negotiating at this point, when still in, but not when we leave For example I doubt the EU would be doing this for one of the smaller nations but there is only so far they will go to try and keep us in the club

Once we do leave they will be scorned and respond in the usual way scorned folk do.

its still madness to think we have a great negotiating position v them when leaving. Its as weak a hand as one can have

We still want to trade but we dont want to pay. Its never ever going to happen like that ever. Look how little he got when we had the threat of money and they were trying to keep us.

pedant mode on:

as a british citizen by a quirk of geography you are also a european, as Britain is technically within the boundaries of western europe, our culture is european in terms of historical interaction, art, music, religion etc.etc.

Pedant mode off:

However what you want to call yourself is entirely your choice of course.

Like a quite large number of people in this country I would definitely call myself British with European roots of which I am proud.

Of my eight great-grandparents who were born in the last two decades of the 19th century, four were born in England, two were born in Italy, one in Ireland ( although when he was born, Cork was part of the united kingdom) and one in Germany.

edit:
I should of course have said In, but not just because of the above

In, as it’s hugely better than the alternative.

What negotiating position? Companies want to sell stuff. They aren’t going to give a shit if we’re in the EU if they turn a profit from us. Somehow restricting trade from europe will damage the bottom lines of the companies, and therefore european growth.
Saying that they’ll turn the taps off is wrong.

Saying that they’ll turn the taps off is wrong.

Indeed we will still trade with the EU but nowhere near as easily or as freely as now whilst in the common market

However some seem to think our strong negotiation position means they need us so when we leave they will let us continue to trade unabated- that was the initial point i countered as it fanciful nonsense- as indeed is claiming all trade will cease.

We may get trade but it will come at a price and there will be lots of change

Do we not need each other?
That’s the basis of trade, no?
Is this anti-Uk behavior to be expected if we leave? Would have been expected of the rUK if the scots had left?
Also, the further they cast us away, the less likely it would be that we rejoined at a future date.

I dunno. Makes my head hurt.

we are both materially better off with each other but we dont need each other. I think the divorce analogy is the best one here

Couple do many things but cooperate at break up is rarely amongst the choices made and its is so unlikely that we leave yet keep the only bit we want [ free trade] is fanciful

How much either side decides to hurt the other and co operate is anyones guess but no change and free trade is not going to be the outcome – well not without paying and obeying the rules but having no say over them.

Out, and I think that another summer of the migrant crisis will seal it for the ‘out’ campaign.

I have monitored this thread with great interest most of the day and as a result have read or listened to a variety of sources about the issue of our EU membership. I came from a position of not really caring either way about whether we stayed in or came out as I could see both sides of the argument.

I think the socio-economic arguments will rage backwards and forwards for a long time and must admit I can’t really say with any certainty which I believe. However, I started to think about my own attitudes at a very basic, personal level. I have travelled extensively through Europe over the years and have to say I quite like most of the people I have encountered and envy many aspects of the the various societies.

Therefore I have decided I am now firmly in the “in” camp and would really like to see Britain abandon all it’s petty objections and really make a go of trying to fix the many problems that the EU face from the inside rather than acting like a surly teenager begrudgingly on holiday with their parents. Just imagine if the French, Germans and British really got together with all the other member states and tried to pull together rather than bickering all the time. It would be nice to see what things would be like if we cooperated a bit more rather than trying to veto all the time.

We still want to trade but we dont want to pay. Its never ever going to happen like that ever. Look how little he got when we had the threat of money and they were trying to keep us.

Can we keep the Euro when we leave then?

Its OUR Euro remember! 😉

And before the usual suspects start repeating Sturgeons utter bullshite about how they aren’t bound by the westminster referendum, they might want to read the Scotland Act

Scotland Act 1998, Schedule 5, Reserved Matters:

7(1)International relations, including relations with territories outside the United Kingdom, the [F3 European Union](and their institutions) and other international organisations, regulation of international trade, and international development assistance and co-operation are reserved matters.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/46/schedule/5

How much either side decides to hurt the other and co operate is anyones guess but no change and free trade is not going to be the outcome – well not without paying and obeying the rules but having no say over them.

Quite. Expecting politicians to behave like adults is a big ask!
FWIW, I have no problems with contributing (although perhaps to a lesser extent than currently), nor immigration. I have an issue with the “unquestionable power” thing. Parhaps having a more lassaiz faire attitude to the EU regs (as many others have) could work. Not really in the british psyche though.
Changing the calc to make us pay more was piss poor IMHO.

Can we keep the Euro when we leave then?

Its OUR Euro remember!
Neatly not addressing the point you made about how money meant we had a string negotiating position was basically wrong.

No one doubts that Scotland has to abide by this under our current law

Its difficult to predict what would happen if they had a separate vote and voted to stay[ or the result showed they voted to stay], which is not unlikely. However its hard to see how they could do this legally and whether the result would be respected. Constitution v democracy woudl be an interesting time.

WOuld be ironic to force them to leave one union they wanted to be in and stay in one they now want to leave then argue its democracy in action. Hard to see how keeping them there very angry helps the uk issue much as well.
Personally, beyond it being a shit storm, I would not like to make a prediction.

@ wrecker – is it really true that others do just ignore the rules or is it just another one of those things everyone has heard so often abut the EU we think it is true.

Busy but will google afterwards as I do not know if there is any truth in this claim.

A reluctant out.

I had previously been very pro – Europe but I do not like the direction it has gone in over the last 10 years. Very ideologically driven.

is it really true that others do just ignore the rules or is it just another one of those things everyone has heard so often abut the EU we think it is true.

I can only speak from my experience, certainly the EPBD (which bought us EPCs) has been either ignored or fiddled by and large on the continent.

In.

Anyone who thinks Out is stupid beyond redemption. Why would you vote against your own interests (workers’ rights, safety legislation, free market etc) unless you’d been hoodwinked by media who want out so that they can reduce their costs ?

Whilst we’re at it, we’d have been much better off IN the euro. Our position would be similar to Germany’s. I just sent some time working there, my god it’s civilised. And the whole Euro project would be in better shape with us in it.

Anyone who thinks Out is stupid beyond redemption.

That’s very rude. It’s a very complex question that no-one actually knows the answer to. Clearly there are stupid arguments for both sides.

That said, In.

as a british citizen by a quirk of geography you are also a european, as Britain is technically within the boundaries of western europe, our culture is european in terms of historical interaction, art, music, religion etc.etc.

Not very good pedantry – you could easily be a British citizen without ever having been to Britain or Europe, and not having the slightest connection to British or European history, art, music, religion etc.

retro83 – Member

bowglie – Member
The Japanese companies manufacture here to get around EU quotas, so they’re not going to hang around if the UK leaves the EU.

Toyoda has said that Toyota will stay regardless. [/quote]

Toyota knows how good BritLand is by comparison to the EUSSR. Hence staying. Nuff said. Good enough for Toyota good enough for me.

Toyota! Toyota! Toyota! Oi! Oi! Oi! 😆

As I said before I was strongly in precisely because of the workers rights,safety regulations, human rights etc but the behaviour of the EU towards Greece has made me question how much it is in the pocket of global multinationals and banks. Then there’s the TTIP issue with negotiations shrouded in secrecy doesn’t inspire confidence in the desire of the EU to represent it’s peoples interests well. So now I am undecided.

In

WorldClassAccident
The OUT campaign seems mainly to be ‘They’ are making rules for ‘Us’ and ‘We’ want control back.

It seems fair until you ask who ‘They’ are and who ‘We’ are.

We are British and They are not – actually I am English but get rules and controls forced on me for the benefit of the whole of Britain.

Okay, We are English and They are not – Actually I am from Hampshire but get rules and controls forced on me for the benefit of the whole of England.

Okay, We are Hampshire and They are not – Actually I am from Southampton but get rules and controls forced on me for the benefit of the whole of Hampshire.

Okay, We are Southampton…

I guess the logical end result is that we all live as individuals with no cooperation and no joined up rules, collective responsibility etc. I guess that is why the Out campaign tends to be favored by those who have least to gain by sharing with others and most to gain by exploiting their relative strength over others.

I am sure there is a reverse argument that will pop up shortly but for the moment I am in.

This^

EU means …

Ease of people movement.

East of competition.

The question is can you hack it?

Obvious is obvious …

😆

In.