Ninfan – I take my hat off to you. It takes massive balls for a Brexiteer to accuse others of narrow mindeness.

Brexiteers win in being open minded as we wish to face qually the entire world, the EU is a protectionist zone granting preferential access to a narrow group of countries populated in large part by caucasians.

I can’t figure out if Jambalaya knows how much he’s talking like a spin doctor instead of actually thinking things through..

It’s like he’s constantly trying to sell something.

Not even close to being true – as evidenced by your scare stories with 70m Turks about to invade the UK

Plus as members of the EU we had preferential access to more non-EU economies than our closest peers who are ex-EU (indeed ex-Europe altogether) but who are held up as role models. Some role models….

Which is not what you said earlier – so good to be clear

??? Its exactly what I have said all along, Article 50 is our option and we won’t extend the 2 year timeline.

We have total control, we can elect to have no deal at all. Europe is bust, it has no strength to negotaite. It’s only a matter of time before we are reading about the impending Italian banking crises, Italy and the ECB have no ammunition left. The collapse of the euro will be ugly and will affect us whuch is why we have to get as far away economically as quickly as possible. We shouldn’t rely on exports to the EU as they are going to shrink dramatically as Europe is going to be skint.

EU wants to pacify Russia by stepping away from NATO – the EU is very anti USA, this is very bad news for countries like Ukraine and Baltic States

Trump, the man who would be king, has said on multiple occasions how much he admires Putin and also he would consider pulling the US out of NATO which he says is obsolete and costs the US too much.

He said specifically that:
“But we’re taking care of, as an example, the Ukraine. I mean, the countries over there don’t seem to be so interested. We’re the ones taking the brunt of it. So I think we have to reconsider keep NATO, but maybe we have to pay a lot less toward the NATO itself.
..
if you use Ukraine as an example and that’s a great example, the country surrounding Ukraine, I mean, they don’t seem to care as much about it as we do. So there has to be at least a change in philosophy and there are also has to be a change in the cut out, the money, the spread because it’s too much.”

Yup, he wants the countries surrounding the Ukraine to be responsible for defending it. That would be Moldova, Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, Poland, Belarus and.. err.. Russia.

No you said that we had sovereign power to pick our exit date which is not true. You then changed this to pick our A50 date, which is closer to the truth.

500m people with freedom of movement vs a controlled immigration policy as agreed by whatever government we have.

BTW just seen the Belgian police are bringing van loads of ex-Calais Jungle immigrants back over the border to France, not our problem seems to be their message. The whole thing is a shambles.

Europe is bust,

There is a trend here – not true

it has no strength to negotaite.

Ditto

It’s only a matter of time before we are reading about the impending Italian banking crises, Italy and the ECB have no ammunition left.

And dont tell me, we are/were on the hook (from the £350m drawer of nonsense)

The collapse of the euro will be ugly and will affect us whuch is why we have to get as far away economically as quickly as possible.

It most probably will be we cannot escape it impact as the European economies will continue to represent some of our most important economic partners. Playing “them annd us” benefits no one.

Brexiteers win in being open minded as we wish to face equally the entire world

It’s a nice spin, but it doesn’t quite marry up with the reasons that many people gave for voting Leave, does it?

Do you really think that amongst all the anti-immigration sentiment that significant numbers voted Leave because they wanted more employment opportunities for people from countries outside the EU?

Europe is bust… we have to get as far away economically as quickly as possible

So basically we’re so worried about the possibility of the ship sinking that we’ve punched a massive hole in the hull to escape.

The whole left right arguments around brexit are ridiculous.

Wanting to stay in the EU automatically means you’re a sandal wearing looney, and yet the Conservative leader at the time wanted us to stay in.

Most of the out voters comments seem to confirm what I already thought. I haven’t heard a convincing argument yet about what the benefits of leaving are. I’ve heard a lot of might be’s based on what the country was like 150 years ago.

Meanwhile, let’s all thank UKIP for a bit of light relief with Douglas Carswell’s perfect metaphor for the leave campaign- “Don’t worry about leaving the moon, we don’t need it! We’ll be able to make new tide agreements with the sun. And 70 million Clangers are about to invade. Take back control of our seas!”

I had made an edit as my fingers had been typing faster than my brain,

Amazing. I never knew you had a brain labrat.

Brexiteers win in being open minded as we wish to face qually the entire world, the EU is a protectionist zone granting preferential access to a narrow group of countries populated in large part by caucasians.

This is the most amusing thing by these “free for all” types, their complete failure to see the World is becoming unionised.

Jam please tell me shortening my user name is not intended as an insult.
You miss my point about sovereign power and where it lies. You stated we don’t have a constitution crisis but we now don’t know who makes the sovereign decisions , plebiscite parliament or her majesty via the prime minister . We have a PM who is actively seeking to avoid acting via democratic parliament claiming a legally advisory referendum with a symplistic binary question gives her a sovereign mandate on complex issues not addressed in the referendum. So where does sovereignty lie ?

Crankboy absolutely not, apologies if it came across that way.

As I understand it May has clear legal advice a commons vote isn’t necessary. Tories where elected to majority Government and the Queen invited her to form a Government post Cameron. She has executive authority. Most big decisions are taken without a Referendum, it was a mistake for it to be advisory but I can see why that was done in case result was 49.9 vs 50.1 as per Austrian Presidential Election Version 1. As triggering A50 does not require legislation the Lords can’t block it (my understanding)

tmh, Euope cannot prevent a Greek default other than a debt write off which is political suicide, Italy cannot bailout its banks, Europe cannot afford to bailout Italy, Spain in a dangerous place. The whole thing is a pack of cards are far worse than sub-prime.

@jools IMO Cameron backed himself into a corner as he couldn’t admit the “re-negotiation” had been a total failure. As such he was obliged to campaign for Remain.

You are prone to talking an absolute load of bollockss to be fair though Jamba.

I can’t see how an advisory referendum is any kind of mandate for an autocratic decision. Is this Nazi Germany or something ffs?

After today’s article about st Helena, I think it is fair to say if brexit happens the U.K. Is screwed. Can’t organise a piss up in a brewery comes to mind. The chances of the government being able to negotiate any sensible treaty are less than none.

I can’t see how an advisory referendum is any kind of mandate for an autocratic decision. Is this Nazi Germany or something ffs?

And… Godwin! 😆

Will she release her clear legal advise if it is unarguably right why has the Court not dismissed the current case without going to full hearing ? How do you repeal the Act of parliament that takes us in other than by Act of parliament ? Hence the constitutional issues.
Was teasing on the abbreviation thing .

Merkel is in a lot of trouble, also remember AfD was formed to campaign against Germany bailing out Greece. Who are are negotiating with and the environment could look very different in 12 months time.

Merkel. Turn Back Time

Here’s how this is going to go down.
We’ll use this “result” to try and get a better deal. Clearly no one in the government with any sense wants to leave. Racists and people like Jambaliar will continue to talk bollocks. We won’t get a better deal for a million reasons already listed. Everyone will forget about the time the UK lost its grip on reality and the Leave voters will quietly deny what they voted for.

I can’t see how an advisory referendum is any kind of mandate for an autocratic decision. Is this Nazi Germany or something ffs?

No, it is the nature of our constitution, Carl Gardner, a former government lawyer explains:

In terms of domestic constitutional law, the government may choose to ask Parliament to vote in favour of article 50 notification—but there is no legal or constitutional requirement on it to do so. Notification would be (in domestic law terms) be done under prerogative powers in relation to international affairs, rather than any statutory authority. The government can just go ahead and do it.

Blog here

Morally though?

And… Godwin!

Yep, damn right.

Morally though?

Yes

tmh, Euope cannot prevent a Greek default other than a debt write off which is political suicide, Italy cannot bailout its banks, Europe cannot afford to bailout Italy, Spain in a dangerous place. The whole thing is a pack of cards are far worse than sub-prime.

We agree on aspects of this and the root cause – the folly that is the Euro – but these alone are not an excuse for the even greater folly that was Brexit

Despite earlier comments, I am sure that you are well aware that we have no liability towards the EZ. That is for them to sort out. So this Europe is about to collapse stuff is simply more material to muddy the waters of an already opaque debate. It does no one any favours.

Yes

Do you sell timeshares by any chance? Used cars?

There is nothing moral about EU membership, the referendum gave a clear political mandate, one I voted against, but having decided a referendum was the right course, it is impossible to ignore it.

the referendum gave a clear political mandate

Nothing clear about it…

I don’t think there is any good reason to just hold another referendum on the same question to see if people have changed their minds. That does seem very undemocratic.

But I can see the point in having negotiations and planning then saying to people “Right, here is the new deal we’re going to strike with the EU. What do you want to do? A) yeah sounds good, go with that B) tell them to get stuffed and go it alone C) scrap the whole Brexit plan and stay in the EU”

After all, that cuts both ways, if the negotiated plan was a Norway style deal then people strongly against freedom of movement or paying into the EU may well want to vote option B.

Sadly though I strongly doubt we’ll get such an opportunity so the best we can hope for is parliamentary debate and attempts to represent the views of the people through our MPs.

Nothing clear about it…

Grow up,

But I can see the point in having negotiations and planning then saying to people “Right, here is the new deal we’re going to strike with the EU. What do you want to do? A) yeah sounds good, go with that B) tell them to get stuffed and go it alone C) scrap the whole Brexit plan and stay in the EU”

But… You can’t negotiate without triggering article 50 and once you’ve triggered it your gone, regardless of how the negotiations go.

What the hell? Why am I being immature?

It’s not clear, because the question was so poor. I don’t see why this is so hard to understand.

It’s not clear, because the question was so poor.

It was unambiguous, a clear majority want to leave, that is democracy.

But… You can’t negotiate without triggering article 50 and once you’ve triggered it your gone, regardless of how the negotiations go.

Yep – we voted on something with no clear idea what the actual plan was (because there wasn’t one) and when we eventually do have a plan we won’t be allowed to vote on it.

Yay “democracy”.

Not a clear majority of the electorate, which is the minimum threshold you might normally expect in a referendum for such a large constitutional change. Might I go so far as to suggest that such a narrow margin of the vote results in “unfinished business” 😉

Despite the absence of a plan, people still voted for leave, the status quo is normally dominant in referendums. You can’t ignore a result that overcomes that.

mefty – Member

It was unambiguous, a clear majority want to leave, that is democracy.

The ambiguity as you know is that the brexit that was sold is not the brexit that’ll be delivered. The question that hangs over it all is, was the vote a vote for the fantasy brexit, or was it for brexit in any form.

Brexiters now say the bullshit wasn’t important and didn’t sway anyone but that’s like cigarette advertisers; if it wasn’t important and didn’t sway anyone then why do it in the first place?

Weird thing is, if you sell any other product with false advertising then deliver something else entirely, the consumer is protected. But that only applies to important things like toasters, not to trivialities like governments and referenda.

mefty – Member
It’s not clear, because the question was so poor.
It was unambiguous, a clear majority want to leave, that is democracy.

If it’s such a clear majority, it should be able to stand up to another vote.

If I asked you ‘would you like a really well paying job?’ and you had to answer yes or no, what would you say? If you said yes, would you expect to be forced to take the job?

I think before committing, you’d say ‘can you tell me more about the job?’