Lifer – interesting that Norway, UK and Germany have much the same tax rate but vastly different corporate tax takes.

It’s not the tax rate, but the mix of taxes, deductions, credits etc that effect revenue. The Laffer curve can never take all these factors into account, it’s only use is as propoganda for cutting taxes.

So when outliers support your theory you include them?

No, I am simply saying that it is dangerous to draw conclusions from this data either way.

A more interesting debate is whether taxation is morally justified in the first place?

A more interesting debate is whether taxation is morally justified in the first place?

Discussing that on here would destroy the internet!

As for the graphs I agree. Taxation and revenue are far too complex to be reduced to a simple scatter/line graph.

Phew. Lunch time. I’m hungry

It serves no purpose continuing this ‘debate’, as a) I’m right

and

quite frankly, youse lot ain’t worth the hassle

are examples of the attitude that means some of us dont want to meet you on a ride to discuss things in person 🙄

Stoner has been extremely insulting towards myself and the East End, claiming such things as ‘I woon’t venture further east than Liverpool St’ and other such ignorant rudeness

how on earth could stoner offend a geographical area? the concrete and tarmac dont have feelings, perhaps it could be a case of he’s offended you and you’re now presenting an opinion on behalf of inanimate objects, or shock-horror… other people?

i avoid the whole of london personally, i find it a horrible place to spend time.

One of the headaches in Europe is that governments compete to offer the most favourable conditions to rich people and businesses. Why do musicians choose to live in Holland? (Angus for example) Why did so many American companies choose Ireland? (Google) Why do the Tennis and Grand Prix set live in Monaco? (the answer)Why do so many of the stinking rich live in Switzerland? (check out income and property tax rules)

That is a good point Edukator, but I don’t see a consensus on international taxation limits (lower and upper) happening anytime soon. Is there another way this could be achieved?

For me the ultimate point for us is a resource based economy but that would require global unity and complete transparency to work.

Edukator and Lifer – interesting to note that this was part of the debate on Newsnight last night with the Tory spokesman talking specifically about “globally competitive taxation schemes”.

Lifer – why would the debate destroy the internet?

I refer you to the advertising/logo thread.

Some harmonisation of tax rules in EU member states would no doubt level the playing field a little. It’s an anomally that countries that were so willing to sign up to a free trade zone now work so hard on distorting that free trade model using their tax systems. Given the veto rule I can’t see any EU directives aimed at harmonisation getting passed any time soon.

So no, I can’t think of a way it could be achieved without a complete revision of EU treaties and cutting off Swiss banks from the international sorting system.

Lifer – why would the debate destroy the internet?

The world’s mods would move as one and shut the entire system down. It’d be their only option, really. We’d all have to find something else to do 🙂

The world’s mods would move as one and shut the entire system down. It’d be their only option, really. We’d all have to find something else to do

Genuine LOL! I mean, 1700 posts about funny little pitchers…. Tsk! 🙄

I’m really starting to get concerned about some of you lot.

You are aware that its summer outside and the weathers lovely? I went out for a nice sunny, hilly jaunt on the road bike last night, then met my beloved for a couple of pints sat outside the pub. It was a really nice evening. 15 mile sunny commute this morning too. Smashing!

Could I respectfully suggest that maybe some of you need to get out a bit more

I took today off work to go on a bike ride with my club (the site agent was most unimpressed when I told him yesterday that I was taking the day off to go on a bike ride 🙂 ) I’ve just got back. And yet I still managed to combine it with a quick pop at Flashheart and Zulu-Eleven. There’s more to life than riding a bike, if you can’t combine it with a good ol’ political ruck then that’s a tad tragic imo.

The Laffer curve can never take all these factors into account, it’s only use is as propoganda for cutting taxes.

Indeed it has no basis in reality but is often quoted

A more interesting debate is whether taxation is morally justified in the first place

Don’t be silly now –. I doubt that anyone but a few right wing freedom zealots actually consider this to be wrong and even they probably want it [state] for defence of what they own.

CaptainFlashheart – Member

It’s hot as bu99ery here

Having never experienced bu99ery, I have no idea how hot it is. 😐

Must be some sort of posh school Rugger thing…

Must be some sort of posh school Rugger thing…

Didn’t you find out about it when you went to private school Elfie ?

I never went to private school Ernie. 😐

😐

You look disappointed – did you want to ?

Fair enough though, I thought you went to a fee paying school, which explained why you’re well posh. Mustov confused with someone else 😀

Interesting to look at growth – germany and france have higher growth than us – not just a bit higher but 3.6% in France and 6% in Germany. this is despite ( or because of) no massive cuts adn higher taxation than here.

The cuts are holding back UK growth and making the problem worse not better

3.6% in France and 6% in Germany

I believe those figures are incorrect in relation to the forecast for 2011. To be fair the UK suffered more than most as a result of the global credit crunch/recession, because of the UK economy’s heavy reliance on the financial services industries, I blame Thatcher for that. I think both France and Germany rode the global crises much better than Britain.

Fair enough though, I thought you went to a fee paying school, which explained why you’re well posh.

One of elfins previous persona’s certainly claimed to have spent some time at an independent school.

I thought so too allthepies. I tried a quick search but it might have been on the old forum. He’s gonna get away with this one I reckon 🙂

Yeah I went to a public school for a while, and then to a crappy state comprehensive. Which gives me a pretty unique insight into the relative merits of the two types of school, and also the huge disparity in educational resources available to the respective students I would say.

See I’ve moved about a bit in society, me. Small bubbles aren’t my thing…

Ernie; I’m only ‘posh’ compared to you, because you’re from Sarf London. 😐

to a crappy state comprehensive

You were unlucky mate…..I went to a brilliant ILEA comprehensive school. I still marvel at the fact that they managed to teach most of us anything – I honestly don’t know how the teachers managed it, but they did.

Cameron’s strategy director (they have a strategy?) has some great ideas to stimulate growth today.

Abolish maternity leave, suspend consumer rights, abolish job centres, ignore an EU directive on temporary and agency worker rights;

“Steve [Hilton] asked why the PM had to obey the law,” said one Whitehall insider. “Jeremy [Heywood, Mr Cameron’s permanent secretary] had to explain that if David Cameron breaks the law he could be put in prison.”

Senior Downing Street sources last night said the ideas were examples of Mr Hilton’s “blue sky thinking”* and had no chance of being introduced.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/8667058/David-Camerons-senior-adviser-Steve-Hilton-suggests-UK-should-abolish-maternity-leave.html

*urgh

Senior Downing Street sources last night said the ideas were examples of Mr Hilton’s “blue sky thinking”*

Its actually the polar opposite of “Blue Sky Thinking” isn’t it really? Its “Default Tory” in a nutshell

You’d think that after Andy Coulson, that Call-me-Dave would have learnt his lesson about surrounding himself with utter ****s!!! Steve Hilton is an absolute stroker!!

Boris calls for 50p tax rate to be scrapped

mcboo calls for 50p tax rate to be scrapped

Except it isnt 50p, its 62p because for some reason we still have separate NI.

How much more does it raise than when it was at 40%? Mmmmmm?

10% more? I’m just guessing though. Maths was never really my strong point

mcboo – there is an upper earnings limit for NI at 40 000 a year ish. so actually all the 50% band does is make sure that the rich pay a similar amount of tax as the folk in the middle – and to pay 50% tax rate you have to be amongst the richest few % of the country.

and its utter bobbins that raising taxes reduces tax take. Lawyers, bankers, doctors etc cannot take themselves abroad

This lack of growth is because of reduced demand – there is plenty of surplus capacity. If you want to stimulate demand you need to put more money in poor peoples pockets not rich ones as poor people spend a greater % of their money on stuff

mcboo – Member
mcboo calls for 50p tax rate to be scrapped

Except it isnt 50p, its 62p because for some reason we still have separate NI.

How much more does it raise than when it was at 40%? Mmmmmm?

Why don’t you have a look and provide some figures?

If you want to stimulate demand you need to put more money in poor peoples pockets not rich ones as poor people spend a greater % of their money on stuff

You are right, which is why I took my hat right off when the LibDems got a healthy bottom rate tax cut into the Coalition Agreement. Tory’s missed a trick there, that should always be a Conservative policy, get people off benefits and into work and make it worth their while by letting them keep most all of it. I’d do that again in a heartbeat.

Cutting the top rate is incredibly difficult to justify politically because its so easy for the likes of your good self to point and say “Same old Tories”. That doesnt make it the wrong thing to do, the 50% rate is only justifiable on idealogical grounds. You never hear anyone in Labour claiming it raises much extra cash and they are super-sensitive the the charge that is makes us uncompetitive. It appeals to the Labour base just as a cut appeals to shire Tories.

TandemJeremy – Member

mcboo – there is an upper earnings limit for NI at 40 000 a year ish. 🙄

Or do you think rich people should be taxed less than middle earners?

Or do you think rich people should be taxed less than middle earners?

Nope. I’m a flat taxer.

Ah – a flat earther. No wonder you have such an understanding fail on this. Upper earnings limit on NI remember. 🙄

Why don’t you have a look and provide some figures?

Honestly fella, if you can show me that raising income tax to 50% has raised a significant amount and isnt harming the recovery then I will hold up my hands. As per above, I’d be taking the lowest paid out of income tax picture altogether as my first priority, I dont particularly need a tax cut right now. But if it makes no sense and harms the country I hope the Tories have the balls to say so and do something about it.

If you look at Mr Hiltons proposals you’ll notice they all have one thing in common. They’ll hammer the people who can least afford it. Mothers just about to have children, Agency workers. I don’t see any equivelent proposals for the rich to share any of this pain

Could you please tell me how this deviates from the standard Tory policies we’ve all come to know and hate

Upper earning limit on NI? all teh 50% tax rate does is counter that.

abolish the 50% rate and people earning over 100 000 pa have a lower tax rate than people earning 25 – 40 000 taxable income

and its utter bobbins that raising taxes reduces tax take. Lawyers, bankers, doctors etc cannot take themselves abroad

They can and they do, I know GP off to Aus the end of the year. I have no idea what a banker or a lawyer does day to day but I doubt it’d be beyond them to adjust either.

Ok – tehy cannot ake the earnings – someone is still doing that job. You cannot be a UK GP while in Aus