If so, I’d really appreciate your feedback 🙂

My bike has a 2011 RP23 and I’m having difficulty getting the back feeling right.

It can feel pretty harsh over repeated hits yet uses more travel than I’d expect – after most rides the o-ring is at the end of the damper shaft. I’m also finding that it’s wallowing when I’m trying to pump through rollers in the trail.

The sag is correct by the way.

I’m keen to try something with more control over the damping, but am a bit concerned about adding a load of weight and losing pedalling efficiency.

Hence the request for real world experience!

Cheers,

Neil.

Sorry I can’t help you with the question about the CCDB on the Nomad but I can help in other ways.

The problem you’re describing is one I also experienced with the 2011 RP23. I hated it frankly – with the air spring set to the right sag the thing wallowed and blew threw its travel but with the spring rate set to compensate that the bike sat too high in its travel.

The CCDB is fabulous and extremely tuneable and solved this problem. You will certainly be able to dial out the wallow when pumping without compromising the suppleness and small hit efficiency. It will however take a fair bit of trial and error to get to the perfect set up but it’s worth it.

But it does add 1lb in weight (typically) and it’s pricey. If you’re not bothered about that then it’s a great solution.

An almost perfect alternative is the BOS Vipr. This has far more mid range control and is simply superb over fast rough ground. You can’t adjust the damping yourself but you can source them set up for your bike. I love it although it does make a more compelling case when used in conjunction with the Devile fork as the Vipr can feel over firm for some and I can imagine that when paired with a Fox fork, it might unbalance the bike.

Having said all that, I tried the 2012 Carbon Nomad yesterday, which comes with the 2012 RP23 and honestly I thought that the new damping in that unit was really good. I set the Pro Pedal to off, and selected the first level of damping (you can now control the low speed compression damping even when Pro Pedal is turned off) and it worked very well. Sag was set to about 35% and with this relatively soft spring rate the bike didn’t wallow or blow through when pumping.

Hope this helps.

Give Howard at Pedal & Spoke in Peaslake a call as he’s sold a lot of Nomads with CCDBs and so can likely give you some more detailed feedback.

What you describe is a characteristic of the way the VPP works, they can feel a bit harsh on the chatter bumps.

When you say you run the correct sag, how much are you running? I found mine (albeit a 2012 shock) was better at ~30% sag bit with an air spacer in the can to stop it blowing through the midstroke. You can also speak with TF about revalving the shock to provide more midstroke support.

However, saying that, the Nomad’s suspension curve does lend itself well to a coil (or coil like) shock, due to it’s progressive curve.

Whether you can accept the weight penalty is your choice. I couldn’t on mine. I went a little leftfield on the choice of a Vivid Air. Just under double the weight of an RP23, but half the weight of the CCDB. So far, very impressed…

TF Tuned? Cheaper than a CCDB..

Dont go with the CCDB.

Get a push link and a Fox RC4. This changes the leverage curve, making the initial stroke a lot more sensitive and the later stage stroke a lot more progressive.

The CCDB doesn’t work that well with the push link, with the RC4’s air valve on the RC4 helping to tune progressiveness and bottom out. (Ive heard the CCDB doesn’t even fit it anyway) Push (through TF tuned) do a particular tune for the push link….. for the DHX 5 the RC4 and the Vivid.

I had the same ‘issues’ with my RP23 on my LTc, spoke to MOJO who did a shock tune and it felt alltogether better, and this only cost £30!

neil – emailed you

Ok cheers for that everyone, plenty of stuff to go on there.

I think I’ll try to get my shock tuned first of all, going to spend some more time with it as is and then get it looked at by TFT or Mojo.

If that’s still not doing it then I’ll bite the bullet and go CCDB methinks.

Cheers again everyone!

Neil.

CCDB coil or air?

Will mail you.

You can get mojo (or TF or Loco) to stick more air in the boost chamber – that’ll help take away the wallowy feel as it’ll make the damping ramp up quicker.

(It’s the same priciple as the DHX coil shocks with the air valve on the piggy back, just it’s an internal adjustment on an RP23)

Neil,

How much do you weigh? It seems SC spec all there shock for low compression/rebound tune, if your a big guy like me then it’s gonna feel rubbish. I’ve got an app Butcher I’m 15 stone and have exactly the same problem as you soo need to get a decent tune before I think about a coil shock. However I have put a spacer in my HV air can but not ridden it yer so gonna see how that feels first then I will report back.

That’s a very good question Mr Plow 😉

Cheers everyone – Simon, I’m just in the process of mailing you back 🙂

SC recommend 15-20mm sag, on a 63mm stroke shock that’s 24-34%

Why not try the bloody push link, Nomads are shit with coils on them and the standard link. A second hand DHX5 and the push link will do you more favours. Basically it ramps up loads mid stroke to help support air shocks, which gives you a wonderfully harsh ride with a coil shock.

*Bangs head repeatedly against a wall* Just because it’s gold, expensive and blingy doesn’t mean it’s necessarily good for your bike.

Oh yeah the reason why it feels harsh over repeated hits is probably because your running the bike to soft, don’t go on sag go on recommended pressure. Quite often in air shocks you can add a fair bit more air but not change the sag point that much, meaning for a 2 percent decrease in sag you get a lot more ramp up through the stroke. It’s like that with the Vivid air anyway.

Basically it ramps up loads mid stroke to help support air shocks, which gives you a wonderfully harsh ride with a coil shock.

The Mk2 Nomad has an increasing leverage ratio until a little over halfway through the travel, then decreases after that. So it has some initial firmness at the very beginning (which can make it feel harsh on choppy stuff at speed), then will feel “softer” (and more plow-like) as you head towards midstroke, then progressively firmer towards the end to prevent bottom-out.

It actually does the opposite of what you suggest.

Errr sort of…. yeah now I remember, it’s firm beggining-mid stroke……compared to the push link though it’s mid stroke is FIRMER to support an air shock….the mk1 wasn’t as suited to air shocks that have weak midstroke……the mk2 is still not suitable for a coil shock. Perhaps an RC4 because you could dial in bottom out…..but for a linear coil shock like the ccdb it has little bottom out resistance.

So my position remains the same…..*bangs head against brick wall repeatedly*

SC recommend 15-20mm sag, on a 63mm stroke shock that’s 24-34%

Is it though? As I always thought sag was set for wheel travel, not shock compression – as the shock compression isn’t linear to wheel travel, you might find that (as an example) 25% of wheel travel ‘uses’ 40% of shock compression…..

DrP

Interesting Dr P. How would you measure 30% sag on a Nomad 1 and 2 accurately? Would you work it back to shock stroke so that it is measurable and easier to set or do it another way?

Well, on my Commencal meta the manual gives Eye-to-eye lengths for certain sag percentages, which do NOT correlate with shock compression (similar to the example above).

You would have to look in the manual/online….

DrP

What bugs me is that they custom tune these shocks for VPP frames (and others) and don’t do the simple stuff that is mentioned above to help midstroke etc.

Mojo seem to be getting too much business that should of been done at the point of sale of frame with shock.

Bloody pointless speccing a shock for a frame as custom tuned to the frame if it’s actually really not custom tuned for the frame.

When can we see frames that come with CCDB or Bos as stock for lordy’s sake!!!???

What bugs me is that they custom tune these shocks for VPP frames (and others) and don’t do the simple stuff that is mentioned above to help midstroke etc.

They don’t custom tune these shocks for any platform. They offer a few different off the shelf tunes, that ‘best fit’. As as result, they have to pander to Mr Average. So if you are built like a bean pole, or like your pies too much, then it’s unlikely to work properly.

Then there is different people’s opinions of what they want from a shock, what feels wrong and right to them, which may be the polar opposite of the next person.

There are plenty of bikes the CCDB doesn’t work on, likewise the various BOS shocks.

There is no one size fits all solution.

Ccdb air is designed to ramp up towards the end of the stroke, so may suit your nomad.

For what it is worth the rp23 on my old tracer was pants. If you were of a certain weight it blew through it’s travel at the first sign of a twig in the trail. Also the ccdb on my m9 was horrid until I set the frame up to it’s more progressive setting.

Maybe the case hobnob but @ £350+ for a fox shock on a frame, I would expect more than just a shock that’s been gauged to work better with that particular frame design.

Rather than finding straight away that it needs tuning or swapping for a ccdb for example.

Just going back to:

bwaarp
Errr sort of…. yeah now I remember, it’s firm beggining-mid stroke……compared to the push link though it’s mid stroke is FIRMER to support an air shock….the mk1 wasn’t as suited to air shocks that have weak midstroke……the mk2 is still not suitable for a coil shock. Perhaps an RC4 because you could dial in bottom out…..but for a linear coil shock like the ccdb it has little bottom out resistance.

I don’t think that graph is right, your curve of the Nomad Mk2 is completely different to anything I have seen.

Every other curve matches this:

The Mk2 is ideally suited to the linear nature of a coil shock, because of it’s naturally progressive curve. People have to wind the bottom out fully off on the RC4 in order to get full travel. Based on that, the DBAir probably won’t be suitable, as it’s designed to be a progressive alternative to the coil.

Maybe the case hobnob but @ £350+ for a fox shock on a frame, I would expect more than just a shock that’s been gauged to work better with that particular frame design.

Rather than finding straight away that it needs tuning or swapping for a ccdb for example.

Maybe, but that’s never going to happen in reality, as for the majority of people, the off the shelf option suits them just fine.

You can’t tune a shock to a potential customer, who doesn’t actually know what they want until they ride it. Even then, working out what you actually want & what’s wrong is beyond most people.

bwarrp – i could disagree with you more re nomads and coil shocks.

Also check out this thread http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/rp23-shock-on-nomad-carbon-driving-me-mad

SC recommend 15-20mm sag, on a 63mm stroke shock that’s 24-34%
Is it though? As I always thought sag was set for wheel travel, not shock compression – as the shock compression isn’t linear to wheel travel, you might find that (as an example) 25% of wheel travel ‘uses’ 40% of shock compression…..

Yes it is as SC say so in the user guide

Try sticking a shim in to the outer sleeve of the shock:
http://forums.mtbr.com/turner/dw-5-spot-rp23-mod-503070.html

Worth a go and costs nothing. I stuck with the 135mm x 20mm from a cut up CD stack cover. My shock no longer blows through the travel, ramps up nicely and only gets to end on the biggest stuff I do (also lower PSI by 10-15.

I am on a Heckler single pivot though, but suffered the same blow through mid stroke problem. Costs nothing and can be done without removal of shock in 5mins.

What superfi said! Yes that plastic shim mod does really work

I’ve just replaced the 2012 rp23 on my nomad carbon with a ccdb coil. It has been set up by TFTuned and it is night and day. Yes it’s heavier, quite a lot heavier. But you don’t really notice it once your away. The weight penalty is worth it though – I’ve noticed the biggest difference in fast tight corners – stupid amount of grip and when on big square edge hits – would I go back???? No plans to yet

Obviously the key for the CCDB is to have it set up properly for you, your riding and the suspension set up on your bike!

Hob Nob, that curve is effectively very very similar to the nomad mk1 and that they changed the nomad mk2 quite drastically. Do you mind explaining to me then why the push link changes the leverage ratio so dramatically? And why it was even produced in the first place? 😉

The push link http://www.pushindustries.com/2009/index.php?menu_id=62&type=products&title=Santa%20Cruz%20Nomad&product_id=79

Effectively turns the back end of the bike back into the Mk1.

Here’s a nice ride report, which I can confirm is exactly my experience with the link as my old man runs one with a pushed DHX5.

http://forums.mtbr.com/santa-cruz/nomad-carbon-push-link-installed-ride-report-730367.html

Ooops, no CCDB air, was looking at the wrong line on the graph.

I have a Nomad C with a CCDB coil on it and love the way it rides. I won’t show you any graphs and haven’t ridden the Nomad with an RP23 or a Fox coil but I can share what experience I do have.

I demoed a Nomad with a DHX Air. It was awful – harsh as you like over small bumps, blew right through the travel on the smallest jumps and drops. So I pushed the boat out and specced a CCDB when I stuck my order in.

The Nomad rides beautifully with the CCDB fitted. I found tuning it to meet my (varied) riding needs pretty easy. Y ou’ll never make a coil-equipped 6in bike feel like a hardtail on the ups and a 10in travel DH bike on the downs but the CCBD on the Nomad is the closest I’ve ever found.

It climbs amazingly. Downhill is great but previous comments about the chatter bumps are true, particularly when you’re putting the power down – the Nomad’s VPP design means it isn’t quite a sensitive as a single pivot or a four-bar.

I’d definitely recommend a coil on a Nomad. The CCDB works brilliantly and gives you loads of tuning options. But a Fox coil would probably work really well too as you probably don’t need the independent low/high speed damping circuits like you might on an Orange Alpine.

I too have a NomadC with CCDB. It’s the fastest bike of it’s kind I’ve ridden, within 2 weeks of riding I was knocking 10’s of seconds off trails that I’ve ridden for 10 years (my local is Nant Yr Arian).

It however is not the sofa that my Trek Scratch also with the CCDB was. There’s a definite lack of small bump sensitivity that I’m used to, especially noted when I rode Coed y Brenin a couple of weeks ago. I’d like to try a Stoy on the Nomad as I had an instant improvement when I changed to a Stoy on my V10.

Overall though the CCDB on the Nomad is a significant upgrade over the RP23 which wasn’t terrible in the first place. Thumbs up.

I have a Nomad C with CCDB Coil with a PUSH LINK.
Apparently no-one has ever used this combination. TFtuned set up the CCDB with the Push Link and thought it was a great idea. Surprised no-one has tried it before as it seems like a no brainer to me.
My weight is around 90kg (200 pounds). The Rp23 was awful with no mid stroke, using all of it’s travel easily or sitting high up.
The first thing I noticed was the traction. Felt like I’d gained an extra rear wheel almost. It was like a bishops grip on a choirboy on climbs where the RP23 would easily spin out, and wow, what a difference it made to descents making more wreckless faster lines more appealing. So much control over the RP23. There is also more than you would ever need tune-ability and no need to be sent off for a best guess tune.
Haven’t tried it with the stock link, though there is a review on this thread for that setup by BABW.
Whether it was my weight, riding style, coil upbringing or a combination of all three, I did not get on with the RP23, though my lighter friends commented on how ‘buttery’ it was with the RP23. Not something I found.
Best upgrade I have made, up there with the reverb. Just ordered lyrik coil conversion as the air forks seem sub standard compared to the rear now. Will eventually be upgrading to Ti spring for CCDB, though increased performance has blown any weight penalty out the water. Pedal bob is not much of an issue as it is easily dialled out by upping LSC and LSR.
SO to summarize…
Climbs/descends so much better. Looks the business. What more do you want? Apart from a date with Scarlett Johansson.

Standard settings from TFtuned for CCDB-C w/Push link

HSC – 1 turn
LSC – 5 clicks
HSR – 3.5 turns
LSR – 15 clicks