Diversity

No, not Ashley banjo & Co

There seems to be a bit of media fuss this week about white male supremacy at awards ceremonies.

In this day and age, are people really selected/excluded based on skin colour?

Take the Brits for example – surely Ed Sheeran, Sam Smith and Paolo Nutini are obvious choices, based on chart sales this year? Should we be including a black person, just ‘because’, or can we not just accept that some categories of awards may just be dominated by white blokes?

There was some fuss a while back about the lack of black football managers? Surely a football manager is employed due to his credentials, not the colour of his skin? There are enough black players to suggest that the footballing fraternity is not racist per se? For some reason though, there doesn’t seem to be any complaints about the lack of Chinese or Indian football managers

The clinical term is Chip on ones shoulder, quite afew companies a few years ago positively recruited balck and ethic minorities to make it look like they where inclusive.

Football could benefit from something like the Rooney Rule as employed by the NFL. I don’t ever see it happening though.

Well Sony pictures obviously has some execs who make racist jokes among themselves, I wonder if this is a carry over from that

“What should I ask the president at this stupid Jeffrey breakfast?” she wrote in an email.
“Would he like to finance some movies?” replied Rudin.
“I doubt it,” she wrote. “Should I ask him if he liked DJANGO?”
Rudin responded: “12 YEARS.” Pascal then listed other films that Obama might like, according to whether or not they were directed by someone black or whether they featured black actors.
“Or the butler. Or think like a man? [sic]” wrote Pascal.
“Ride-along. I bet he likes Kevin Hart,”

The “but we’re not racist/sexist/homophobic/etc.” conversation is one I’ve had a lot through work and non-profit organisations I set up, when talking about inclusivity and diversity. People’s idea of racism is generally that it’s a malicious act rather than (also and independently of that malice) a general systemic condition, and if they don’t harbour or see that malice, they see nothing wrong. Individually, there often isn’t but socially there often is.

The Invisible Knapsack by Peggy McIntosh is a really great introduction to the kind of everyday issues faced by someone in a minority (relative to society or just a given group of any size), some of which may seem trivial but all of them are a continuous drip drip that mounts up over time.

When I was 20, I was an internet arsehole who thought positive discrimination was an unfair load of bull****. More than a decade working in an industry completely dominated by white men like myself has thoroughly convinced me otherwise.

Take the Brits for example – surely Ed Sheeran, Sam Smith and Paolo Nutini are obvious choices, based on chart sales this year?

Awards are judged on merit, not popularity. Popularity is its own reward but the best is not necessarily the best selling.

i am not sur ewhy happy go lucky projectthinks that employers refelcting the society they work in is a chip on one shoulders but i am sure he will explain at length

Football has bemoaned the lack of Asian players [ and inadequately addressed it ] and its a bit daft you have mentioned the number of players there are and the fact that there are very few of them becoming managers and not thought this might be a problem.
Its a little like sitting in the boardroom going no we dont have a glass ceiling for women look at all the secretaries we have

Of course, like anything including STW trolly posts, it can go too far. However the redressing of this imbalance is a noble cause supported by the enlightened and opposed and misunderstood by the knuckle draggers.

As DD notes Rooney would be a good place to start.
Another example is we have had equal pay for women since the 70s yet surveys still show the disparity still exits in this “day and age “. Yes society is still dominated by white males . I am surprised you have failed to realise this and needed to ask.

In this day and age, are people really selected/excluded based on skin colour?

It’s a bit naive to think otherwise. Then again, if you have never experienced discrimination being white, male and middle class then I can understand how you can believe the world is fair and everyone gets judged purely on ability.

Football has bemoaned the lack of Asian players [ and inadequately addressed it ] and its a bit daft you have mentioned the number of players there are and the fact that there are very few of them becoming managers and not thought this might be a problem.

But why is it a problem? A good footballer, very rarely transposes into a good manager. Black football managers are not unheard of – Paul Ince, Carlton Palmer for example. Demonstrate who has made an attempt to become a manager and not succeeded because of their skin colour and I’ll accept it’s a problem. Maybe there aren’t that many potential black managers and maybe the potential candidates, just aren’t that good?

As for Asian footballers, maybe there aren’t that many that are at the level required for English football – as an aside, there aren’t many Asians at footy grounds – is this because of the lack of Asian players, or a cultural lack of interest? Genuine, non-troll question…

Demonstrate who has made an attempt to become a manager and not succeeded

Glass ceilings are two sided

It’s a bit naive to think otherwise. Then again, if you have never experienced discrimination being white, male and middle class then I can understand how you can believe the world is fair and everyone gets judged purely on ability.

Yes, the statement in isolation would seem naive, but in the context of major awards ceremonies?? I thought it was de rigeur to include ethnic minorities as a default these days – and so the question goes full circle…

Oh and I’m working class

Demonstrate who has made an attempt to become a manager and not succeeded because of their skin colour and I’ll accept it’s a problem

Forgetting theories about good footballers making good managers, most managers will have played football to a reasonably high level at some stage in their career. You cannot look at the amount of black players in every top league in every country in Western Europe and then look at the faces of the managers, nearly all of them white and not think there’s a problem somewhere…mostly that problem won’t be open racism, but it’s there all the same.

EDIT: Presently, there are 5 black (of 32) head coaches in the NFL; 2 of whom have 24 seasons between them and one entering his first season. That’s around the 15% mark which is more progressive than anything football has achieved. That’s also not taking into account positions like offensive or defensive coordinators which are for more prominent than say, assistant coach here.

Yes, the statement in isolation would seem naive, but in the context of major awards ceremonies?? I thought it was de rigeur to include ethnic minorities as a default these days – and so the question goes full circle…

Award ceremonies, football, boardrooms, the government, discrimination is everywhere. That a few token ethnic minorities and women get hired in certain jobs, doesn’t really change the status quo.

To understand the problem better we need to consider not who gets nominated for the awards, but who has the chance to get nominated – who has the record deals, media exposure, invites on talkshow, right contacts, whose face fits etc. The people up for the prizes are have in a position to be nominated because of the opportunities presented to them – these opportunities are not the same for everyone, it isn’t a level playing field. And remember in the music business awards are there to sell records, not recognising genuine talent. So if you’re a label manager who needs to sell more records, you tell your the PR agency/lobbyists to get the acts who will sell most records nominated. That’s why middle of the road rubbish get nominated. And if you run a major award ceremony, make sure you pick artists will sell lots of records, because that is how people will judge the quality of the awards.

It is slightly different in football but still about equality of opportunity. There is a view within football that former black players don’t make good managers so people don’t give enough former black players the opportunity to prove this wrong, and so they don’t even get on shortlists. In the NFL the authorities recognised this problem and introduced the Rooney Rule to overcome this major obstacle. Given the opportunity black coaches are starting to prove they are just as talented as white coaches (but it will take a long time for things to even out).

Too often in situations like this people look at the end case and use that as evidence to prove the problem doesn’t exist, but looking at the processes up to that point is what is the most revealing.

Not sure if trolling or stupid pic but I cannot be bothered looking
Just read what DD said and have a think will you.

PS if women were good enough they would be in the boardroom rather than the typing poll eh

Not trolling or stupid Junky, it just seems that people look for racism, when it isn’t necessarily there. For what it’s worth, the Rooney Rule makes a lot of sense.

Maybe I should have kept the question in relation to the current media furore of awards ceromonies and the point being, just because a black face isn’t present, why is it a ‘problem’ as pertained to by ‘Clean Bandit’ recently?

Apparently women were excluded too, until it was pointed out that Jessie Ware had been noninated.

I’m now drunk and will refrain from any further replies until the a.m.

No do continue and DD was looking at your misses funny 😉

I know nothing of popular culture so cannot comment on awards tbh

Dont forget to drink some water

As for Asian footballers, maybe there aren’t that many that are at the level required for English football – as an aside, there aren’t many Asians at footy grounds – is this because of the lack of Asian players, or a cultural lack of interest? Genuine, non-troll question…

interesting question, plenty of young Asian and black kids are absolutely mad for footy,

Yet what does a typical England footy crowd look like

1st google image of England football crowd

Is it possibly because it looks something mlike this?

1st google image of edl march

I like DD, so he can look at my Mrs however he likes.

I always drink plenty of water.

Might go for a bike ride in the morning

FWiw they are know for chanting I would rather be a **** than a [whatever team they are playing]

I also think football has done very well to get rid of the racism that was prevalent 20 years ago and is still there in plenty of other countries where monkey chants and overt racism is fairly mainstream
Italians regularly boo Mario for example not to mention their UEFA member getting banned for racism

Not saying we are perfect here but great strides have been made.

Photos of England football fans flying England flags?? What does that prove…..So junkyard you have heard England fans chanting I’d rather be a **** than a ( whatever team you imagined they were singing about) personally?? I know your by far the biggest troll on here but cmon where and when did you here this?

Scottish cabinet is 50% female

It was Milan Amin-Smith’s comments in the following link that have been reported in the news, giving rise to my OP

Whiny cockbag

Clean Bandit’s Milan Neil Amin-Smith tells Newsbeat he’s not too comfortable with “all white boys” leading the way.
“It seems a bit weird and a problem,” he says.

“The Oscars [nominees] were announced today and it was all white men doing everything.
“I think there is something that needs talking about there.”

“Well, I think it has been the year of the white man, which is quite depressing isn’t it?”

Having referenced Kwabs and MNEK as notable black male artists from the last 12 months, Milan says: “It’s bizarre.”

Ah, yes Kwabs and MNEK – I know them well, give them an award for being black [/irony]

As I see it, black music is certainly not overlooked by the media, it just so happens that the most prominent mainstream artists of 2014 have been white males.

One point regarding football managers – if the demographic figures I’ve read this morning are correct, then 3% of the British population are black. 3 out of the 116 football clubs in the top 4 divisions have black managers – that’s 2.5% – that seems like a reasonably fair reflection??

Should the ethnic background of football management reflect the general population as a whole or should it more closely reflect the make-up of the player base? Or even reach a happy compromise for the men in suits that run the game? Three black managers in 116 clubs seems very low.

Why should it be anything apart from positions attained by credentials, success and managements skills? That is my point

Why does the lack of a black face have to make the news, without any actual evidence of discrimination. Maybe it’s just circumstance?

Why should it be anything apart from positions attained by credentials, success and managements skills? That is my point

Going back to some points raised last night, as maccruiskeen said, glass ceilings have two sides, and as I said, look at the faces on the pitch and look at the faces in the dugouts. There’s a massive disparity, as there was in NFL pre-Rooney rule. Maybe there are shedloads of black managers who are more than capable but aren’t even being given the opportunity?

Maybe it’s just circumstance?

Maybe it is, just maybe, but I doubt it very much.

I’m not claiming to have the answer, but having worked in both private and public sector organisations who have dabbled with positive discrimination programmes, nothing sets back the cause of equality by promoting on quotas rather than ability.

It should be about equality of aspiration and opportunity, it needs to be drummed into kids from preschool, and I have no idea how you achieve it.

Would you say that positive discrimination hasn’t worked in NFL MCTD? (Of course, I’m not advocating it as a cure-all panacea.)

Yes, it appears to have worked, but would the NFL have more black managers by now if the Rooney rule wasn’t in place? We’ll never know.

And iirc the Rooney re would be illegal in the UK anyway?

As said above, for all it’s faults, English football has made great strides in the last 20-30 years on the field and on the terraces. I’d be interested to see how many people doing coaching badges are from ethnic backgrounds. If that doesn’t reflect players backgrounds then there must be a reason.

And it would also be interesting to see how figures look lower down the league structures. Seems to me that the top 92 clubs seem to have a rolling merry go round of the same old 110 managers. Will take some time for any new blood of any background to get past that old guard.

As a half-hearted fan, I don’t care what colour the manager is, provided he is the best man or woman for the job, and if the board were blocking people on race I’d be furious.

Yes, it appears to have worked, but would the NFL have more black managers by now if the Rooney rule wasn’t in place? We’ll never know.

You’ll have to forgive me if I’m incorrect, but that sounds to me like you agree it has worked, but only grudgingly, or you think we’d have 15% black headcoaches anyway…which is it? It’s just words like “appears” and phrases like “we’ll never know” are ambiguous, but I’m sure you didn’t mean them to be.

From Wiki:

At the start of the 2006 season, the overall percentage of African American coaches had jumped to 22%, up from 6% prior to the Rooney Rule.

Yeah, we’ll never know I suppose.

on the field and on the terraces

Yes, and it’s time to move it on now. Were the strides made organically do you think? Did they just happen as a result of increasing tolerance in society as a whole? Or did campaigns like “Lets kick it out” help? I guess we didn’t need to dole out special punishments to players using racist language. Or give fans special confidential text numbers where they can report racist language with a seat number without fear of reprisal? All those strides would have happened anyway? Like they have in Italy, Serbia, Russia…where they don’t have any of that old leftie hand-wringing shite.

Seems to me that the top 92 clubs seem to have a rolling merry go round of the same old 110 managers.

I don’t think that’s really the case is it? Most of ’em are white anyway…so even if it was true, it’s going to be a struggle for a black guy to jump on.

As a half-hearted fan, I don’t care what colour the manager is, provided he is the best man or woman for the job.

No, nor do I to be honest. I often hear that kind of language used by people looking from the wrong side of maccruiskeen’s double sided glass ceiling though. I dunno if there’s any connection.

and if the board were blocking people on race I’d be furious

Noone is suggesting blocking anyone on race. All the Rooney Rule states is that clubs have to interview a minority candidate. There are no quotas.

Affirmative actions =/= positive discrimination.

I know your by far the biggest troll on here but cmon where and when did you here [sic] this?

Ah bless with the inability to refute my facts you need to go straight to an ad hom.
I am not posting up racists being racist but clearly you have google and I suspect you may enjoy the search more than I will { well you started it 😉 ]
Excellent debate from the rest that covers the key issues
Its a strange one you cannot have the disparity in race or gender in most other business and think it is anything other than sexism/racism in action.
I agree its unlikely to be hey we are not employing a woman or a black person for this but the figures dont lie.

How we redress this is the difficult question

The English Premier League isn’t really representative of anything really. It’s a world of its own.

graph from 2012

10 of the non English managers were from other parts of the British Isles – much less diverse than England.

The rest were ‘top flight’ international managers who at best can only be representative of their own societies, not ours. And if it takes twenty years to become a premier league manager then what we see now represents what happened twenty years ago.

What we do now will change the future, not the present. And while clubs continue to appoint the most successful foreign managers then the ethnic make up of English managers will be determined outside the UK.

The best people should get the best jobs/awards – simple. There is no logical link between the optimum balance of Footie managers and race. What next red hair?

I managed a business that had strict race/sex quotes set by law. Didn’t achieve intended aims and created problems for the business (partly because the law was so badly written than a very good, black, female team member legally counted as a white bloke due to original nationality. Absurd. I hired her for none of the above. Simply because she was very good.)

The best people should get the best jobs/awards – simple.

But as we know, it’s not simple. Feel free to keep saying the same old same old and stand by while nothing changes or changes too slowly.

What next red hair?

There’s no need to be silly now, is there?

I managed a business that had strict race/sex quotes set by law.

Quotas are probably a bad idea. As pointed out above, if you’d read, the Rooney Rule doesn’t set quotas. It is simply about allowing opportunity. Do you think* the jump from 6% to 22% from 2003 to 2006 happened organically, in spite of the Rooney Rule?

*It’s ok, I know you probably won’t answer (but you’ll have read this far…we all know it.)

Take the Brits for example – surely Ed Sheeran, Sam Smith and Paolo Nutini are obvious choices, based on chart sales this year? Should we be including a black person, just ‘because’, or can we not just accept that some categories of awards may just be dominated by white blokes?

All this shows is what everybody knows anyway – that the Brit awards are shit and meaningless to everyone except music industry big wigs. 2 of them are horrible pseudo soul singers anyway.
Where quality music counts, eg. the Mercury Prize, there are black nominees – and a mostly black group won it last time.

All this shows is what everybody knows anyway – that the Brit awards are shit and meaningless to everyone except music industry big wigs. 2 of them are horrible pseudo soul singers any way.
Where quality music counts, eg. the Mercury Prize, there are black nominees – and a mostly black group won it last time.

I’m not debating the quality of the Brit Awards, just whiny people getting all offended on behalf of nobody, because of a lack of black musicians.

I’ll go and have a listen to Young Fathers later and see if I think they are worthy of a Mercury. As it happens, my daughter has been to see Ed Sheeran and thought he was great – this makes her happy, ergo it makes me happy. I went to see Paolo last year and thought he was amazing! It’s all onions

whiny people getting all offended on behalf of nobody, because of a lack of black musicians.

I heard that on telly yesterday… and yeah my post is just what I thought. Apart from how much I hate Sam Smith! but i didn’t bother with that 🙂