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1. TandemJeremy - Member

   Answer the question ton - I have done my best to answer yours and I'll answer this one.

   I would do my damnedest to let the professionals who operate our justice system to dispatch justice dispassionately as I know I would not be in a fit state to do so.

   I would hope that my feelings would not overcome my morals and ethics and that I would stick with "do as you would be done by" and that the perpetrator is dealt with fairly by our professional and dispassionate criminal justice system - the same as I hope the criminal justice system would treat me dispassionately and fairly should I transgress.

   On this I am a new testament man - "turn the other cheek" not an old testament man " an eye for an eye"

   Now you answer

   Are you prepared for one of your family to be put to death after a miscarriage of justice? Miscarriages of justice will always happen. It could happen to you or a member of your family.

   Posted 2 years ago #
2. deepreddave - Member

   TJ - I think I acknowledged no system is perfect. Your questions are similar to me asking whether you're prepared to accept a released offender raping or killing a member of your family. The law and emotions don't sit well together.

   In answer to yuor questions I'd refer to my post for the line between who to execute and who not "[i]i.e. serial killers/rapists/paedophiles and mass murderers."
   I haven't worked out the nuts and bolts but sure lines could be drawn with/without discretionary powers.

   I obviously wouldn't be happy if a member of my family was wrongly executed but then I wouldn't be any happier if they were murdered by a released offender. It's a no win though I reckon the latter's more likely than the former if the penalty is applied in only the most serious cases.

   There are arguments both ways but the current system's hardly a runaway success is it? It seems there's a serious offence committed by a reoffender every week but no similar rate of stories for life sentenves being quashed.

   Posted 2 years ago #
3. ton - Member

   if it happened to a member off my family i would be devested, but i think in a lot of cases it is open and shut , therefore i would live with it.
   and i would say use the death penalty..i think.

   Posted 2 years ago #
4. deepreddave - Member

   TJ - I admire your other cheek mentality but struggle to see why the law abiding majority should bend over backwards for the extreme few who bite the hand that feeds them. Bear in mind that I'm only advocating execution for the most extreme cases so the numbers would be very small.

   I don't doubt that greater resources for establishing what would make prisons less bearable for the regular guests is the way to go but the cheek only turns so far surely?

   Off out now which is probably best as whilst I appreciate the debate I'm aware this is not a subject on which people are usually minded to change their thinking (me included :|). Tis a wonderfully emotive issue tho'.

   Posted 2 years ago #
5. JacksonPollock - Member

   I always feel that those against the death penalty seem to give less weight to the victims of reoffending and more to the possibility of 'hanging' an innocent person.

   I was instrumental in setting up a victim support unit at a local Magistrates court, when I was doing my degree. We should not and must not create a system based upon the emotional need of some in society for retribution.

   Justice does not = revenge and retribution.

   Posted 2 years ago #
6. deepreddave - Member

   JacksonPollock

   I think many including me are not talking about revenge at all. It's about total prevention of reoffending and a bit about using the money spent on such people for more deserving causes.

   Posted 2 years ago #
7. TandemJeremy - Member

   I haven't worked out the nuts and bolts but sure lines could be drawn with/without discretionary powers.

   Thats the issue - those lines cannot be drawn. If you want the death penalty you have to accept that innocent people will be hung. It might not be very many - but it will happen.

   Unless you can tell me where those lines are?

   Do you know BTW that murder is at a 20+ year low in the UK? and murder stats cannot be fudged.

   Prisons are horrid places to be - I have been in a couple. Murder always attracts a life sentence. People can be released once the tariff is spent - thats the minimum amount of time they can serve to meet the ends of justice but they remain on parole and subject to recall at any time for the rest of their lives, they have to show remorse and accept their guilt and have to be assessed as no danger.

   Our current longest serving lifer is now into IIRC his 37th year of incarceration

   Posted 2 years ago #
8. tootin - Member

   Yes for rapists and murderers

   Posted 2 years ago #
9. ton - Member

   teej, how many serve a sentance, get out and murder again...quite a few.

   Posted 2 years ago #
10. deepreddave - Member

    They can be drawn i.e. death sentence for multiple murderers or rapists/paedophiles with > 10 victims etc. Discretionary powers to judge/jury for lesser and yet still extreme cases such as 5 to 10 victims depending on psychological reports etc. the current system isn't perfect so don't argue against the death penalty because it isn't. You focus on the admininstration of it and the errors but overlook the lives saved or those not ruined.

    If the murder rate is going down then great though I'm all too aware that what you choose to count and how you choose to count it has a bit of an impact on stats!

    Posted 2 years ago #
11. joolsburger - Member

    There are 60 million people here give or take a few and around 800 murders each year.
    That's 800 murderers.

    Let's say half those were hung.

    That's four hundred people you'd trust the British legal system to murder on your behalf each year.

    Good work fella.

    Posted 2 years ago #
12. JacksonPollock - Member

    so death penalty for those that have been convicted, served their time, then go on to kill again.

    The Daily Mail would have you believe this is a regular occurrence, in reality it is extremely rare. Can you give any examples of where this has happened?

    Posted 2 years ago #
13. joolsburger - Member

    Generally murderers are "broken" in some way I dont reckon you can fix them but killing them is just FU.

    Posted 2 years ago #
14. TandemJeremy - Member

    ton - Member

    teej, how many serve a sentance, get out and murder again...quite a few

    
    I know of none. Lets have some evidence to back your assertion.

    and please answer the question

    Now you answer

    Are you prepared for one of your family to be put to death after a miscarriage of justice? Miscarriages of justice will always happen. It could happen to you or a member of your family.

    Posted 2 years ago #
15. druidh - Member

    This thread is a perfect example of the muddy thinking and knee-jerk sadism often shown by those in favour of capital punishment. Some want it for murder, or for only certain types of murder, some for paedophiles, some for rape. None of them can define where the "line" is and would be happy to let "someone else" define that.

    I mean - capital punishment for rape? Really? In a spirit of fair play, how about capital punishment also for those who accuse others of rape when those alleged rapists are found not guilty? That should even things up a bit.

    Posted 2 years ago #
16. ton - Member

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1159477/Murders-rapes--shocking-crimes-65-killers-released-Labour-strike-again.html

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1540632/Convicted-murderers-who-were-set-free-to-kill.html

    teej, i answered you...yes i would.

    Posted 2 years ago #
17. ton - Member

    druidh
    answer my question please.

    Posted 2 years ago #
18. TandemJeremy - Member

    How about Colin Stagg

    Stitched up like a kipper for a murder he did not commit. Clearly innocent as Robert Napper has now been convicted for it.
    A brutal crime. He would surely have fitted your criteria for being hung.

    Posted 2 years ago #
19. skidartist - Member

    So Ton, if you read that muddy and confusing Mail article carefully, 3 murders by released, convicted murders over a period of 6 years

    Quite a few indeed.

    Posted 2 years ago #
20. skidartist - Member

    27 Years

    Posted 2 years ago #
21. ton - Member

    teej, shit happens mate..
    shall i reel off my list of mass murderers again...
    all those poor relative left, and peter, and rose and dennis and donald..............all tucked up in their nice cosy paid for by us cells...
    shame on you..

    Posted 2 years ago #
22. Kramer - Member

    I'm not prepared to pull the lever myself, can't ask someone else to do it for me.

    Posted 2 years ago #
23. JacksonPollock - Member

    And as previously mentioned Stefan Kisko. An absolutely tragic case.

    He was convicted of raping and murdering 11 yr old Lesely Molseed. Ons small problem... he did not, and could not have done it.

    Posted 2 years ago #
24. skidartist - Member

    Do you think mass murderers would be deterred by a death sentence?

    Posted 2 years ago #
25. ton - Member

    JacksonPollock
    i agree mate..terrible.
    how many people did shipman do in tho??

    Do you think mass murderers would be deterred by a death sentence?

    no mate, but why should we pay to keep them..

    Posted 2 years ago #
26. skidartist - Member

    Why should we pay? The keep Esselgruntlfuttock in a job

    Posted 2 years ago #
27. ton - Member

    my cousin is a prison warder at monster mansion...
    he looks after some nice residents..
    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/05/31/baby-p-killer-s-cushy-cell-inside-monster-mansion-115875-21402275/

    Posted 2 years ago #
28. grantway - Member

    Shoot the Bastards ton
    Trouble is they need to be over 100% proved to kill someone
    but even last year the Police got caught out trying to convict
    an inocent man for a crime he had not done.
    what the Police had done was to finger print the guy and found
    that a small part of his finger print resembled the whole finger
    print taken fron the scene, then the Police enlarged a small part of the guys finger print to match the suspects finger print.
    This even went to Crown court on the strength of the made up finger print.

    Posted 2 years ago #
29. esselgruntfuttock - Member

    Yeehaa! Thanks skidartist! At the moment though, I don't work with moiderers ex or otherwise, & as for and use their organs for donation and make some use out of them you wouldn't want them, even on your deathbed.

    Posted 2 years ago #
30. ton - Member

    this bloke is one of the nice residents too.

    should we keep him locked up till he dies or should we end it for him

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Maudsley

    Posted 2 years ago #
31. TandemJeremy - Member

    Where is Esselgruntlfuttock?

    he must have an opinion on this one.

    Ton - have you been in a prison? They are not nice places and loosing your liberty is horrible.

    So Ton - define how you can hang those people and not hang Stefan Kisko, Stephen Downing, Colin Stagg - or are you prepared to let these innocent men be hung?

    Posted 2 years ago #
32. Zulu-Eleven - Member

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_Cooke

    Posted 2 years ago #
33. JacksonPollock - Member

    I was in court on one of the days of Shipmans trial(in an observational capacity during my degree). He wasn't in court on that particular day thank god as I'd have probably been held in contempt!

    The medical evidence was being put forward to decide what was admissible. What struck me was how robust the system is. Law is tested all the time but still it gets things wrong.

    Do you think Shipman wouldn't have killed, for fear of the death penalty? He displayed psychopathic behaviors. His staggering arrogance put him beyond the rationale of the general populous. We (as a society) should have learned from him in the hope that understanding the mindset of people such as him, can lead to spotting the early warning signs in others to prevent horrific crimes like his from happening again.

    Posted 2 years ago #
34. joolsburger - Member

    He was one of 12 children, born in the Toxteth area of Liverpool, and spent most of his early years in Nazareth House (an orphanage run by nuns) in Crosby, Liverpool. At the age of eight, he was retrieved by his parents and beaten regularly until he was eventually removed from their care by social services.[1] During the late 1960s, as a teenager, Maudsley was a rent boy in London to support his drug addiction. He was finally forced to seek psychiatric help after several suicide attempts. It was during his talk with doctors that he claimed to hear voices telling him to kill his parents.

    Yeah lets hang him..

    Posted 2 years ago #
35. Old Git Surrey - Member

    At the risk of once again being looked upon as a racist, nazi or extremist and AFAIK, the BNP manifesto includes the reintroduction of the death penalty as a sentencing option in certain cases.

    Posted 2 years ago #

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