that the catholic church investigates systematic child abuse in England and Wales, or that it doesn’t ?

I don’t think it’s the church’s place to investigate anything – child abuse is a criminal matter and should be tackled by the police. The church’s involvement need only extend to full disclosure and cooperation.

Any priest with self respect should leave in protest. They are all complicit imo.

While I agree with you that the “good ones” have an obligation to stand up and speak out/name and shame the “bad ones”, I think it is a little more difficult for them than you make out. Priests believe that the Catholic Church is God’s representative structure on earth and that they are doing their life’s calling that has been put in their heart by God – that they were born to do this one thing and that it is the most important job in the world (at least that they could do). So I am a little sympathetic to those who would say “I will never leave the church” – even if they’re not right, there’s still Stockholm Syndrome to consider.

I just think it’s odd that the OP led with ‘Catholic Church’ as opposed to the main issue: child abuse. I’d find it odd leading with ‘Schools!’ if it was about abuse in the education system.

Right, but the point of the thread/investigation is not that Father X abused x number of children 20 years ago, it’s that the Church as an institution protected child abusers and allowed them to continue abusing. The story isn’t about the individual acts of abuse as much as about the institution covering it up – the same way that the Deepcut Inquiry wasn’t about individual suspicious deaths as much as the way the MoD appeared to have tried to sweep the issue under the carpet – the same way the US Army appears to be suppressing the “epidemic” of sexual abuse within its ranks.

Your comparison would only make sense if, say, the Inner London Education Authority purported to have its own internal justice system, regarded itself as being above the civil/criminal/state law, ignored numerous allegations against individual teachers, used social opporobium to disgrace (alleged) victims and, when the shit finally hit the fan, allowed paedophile teachers to retire or transfer their jobs to developing countries where the kids were even more vulnerable and there was even less chance paedophiles would face prosecution.

there’s one small problem – Jesus’s main theme was forgiveness – it was the Old Testament god that was into smiting – though one might be forgiven for thinking that the tradition had been maintained…

I think you will find the new testament preaches plenty of violence also. Its a common misconception.

The church’s involvement need only extend to full disclosure …

Not so easy to do SFB if you also believe :

I don’t think it’s the church’s place to investigate anything

btw you still haven’t explain how the Welsh police child abuse investigation is relevant to whether the catholic church in England and Wales is more likely to investigate claims than the church in Ireland.

Having read this article :

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/abuse-report-state-officials-stood-by-as-thousands-were-raped-14308643.html

I get the impression that Irish society is very different to British society – I simply can’t see similar circumstances occurring in Britain. Therefore I suspect DD is right.

There is a difference between disclosure and co-operation on one hand, and on self-investigation/regulation on the other. A bleeding obvious difference, in fact.

Meanwhile, although I would hardly describe Australia as a developing country, this is an interesting/related article: “A NUMBER of Catholic priests living in Sydney are expected to be implicated in child abuse when a long-awaited report is published today…The report could have serious implications in Australia, as it is believed many of the offending priests were moved after complaints were made against them.”
http://www.smh.com.au/national/irish-report-likely-to-implicate-sydney-priests-on-sex-abuse-20090519-beao.html

Oh yes, Catholic church in child abuse shocker.

Says it all really.

btw you still haven’t explain how the Welsh police child abuse investigation is relevant to whether the catholic church in England and Wales is more likely to investigate claims than the church in Ireland.

I wasn’t thinking about the church at all, I was responding to what I thought was the suggestion that such abuse couldn’t happen in those places.

There is a difference between disclosure and co-operation on one hand, and on self-investigation/regulation on the other. A bleeding obvious difference, in fact.

yes, but my point is that the church’s mission is about pastoral care and religious duty, and as such it could be expected to be incompetent at criminal investigation

I agree entirely, which is why ErnieFredRudeboy’s suggestion that there is a conflict between believing that the Church should disclose and the Church shouldn’t be expected to investigate itself is nonsense.

ErnieFredRudeboy’s suggestion

I’ve just discovered that the rules don’t prohibit multiple identities…

I have a simple question for any folks of religious conviction on here. Not a pop or anything, just a straight question.

Has any of the above made you question your fundamental beliefs at all?

Personally there is no way I could ever continue to subscribe to catholicism in light of this, but then I I wans never a catholic and I gave up on any form of god bothering a long time ago having spotted a few fundamental flaws in the concepts, i.e. religion = traditional version of conspiracy theory. Absolute rubbish but due the nature of it difficult to either prove or disprove, and lack of prrof is taken as evidence.

“Absolute rubbish but due the nature of it difficult to either prove or disprove, and lack of prrof is taken as evidence.”

People with faith don’t want or need evidence.

Has any of the above made you question your fundamental beliefs at all?

I think people are quite clear on the difference between the concept of god and the worldly realisation of religion. When I was assaulted by a priest it never occurred to me to question my faith – that came later when I was invited to think about the subject and found it to be nonsense.

I suspect an application of The Marquess of Queensburys’ tactic with libel may be the best way to go on this one. Burden of proof being with the plaintiff not the defendant.

NB – Scouts is not a catholic organisation.

Englishman living in ireland here, was brought up without religion in my parents house, in fact I only went to chruch on rememberence sunday with the scouts.

Everyone I’ve chatted to here is disgusted with the way it’s all been swept under the carpet but are all of the the “didn’t expect any different” opinion. Church and State were so intertwined for so long it’s hard to see how you could seperate it all once you start to include the people that helped to cover up the abuse.

I’m an atheist but the wife is a catholic – she still believes in god but hasn’t been to mass for the last 5-6 years now. There was a lot of pondering before we had our nipper christened as to weather we should or not.

konabunny – Member

People with faith don’t want or need evidence

I thought that was pretty much what I’d said.

I think people are quite clear on the difference between the concept of god and the worldly realisation of religion.

Apparently not, otherwise why on earth would they continue to subscribe to what is so clearly and demonstrably and “ungodly” organisation?

I suspect an application of The Marquess of Queensburys’ tactic with libel may be the best way to go on this one. Burden of proof being with the plaintiff not the defendant.

Yeah, but which is which?

G

Comments suggesting that those who are celibate are a greater risk around children are at best unhelpful, at worst prejudiced.

So why are so many Catholic priests guilty of abuse then?

It seems amazing to me that an organization which has harboured and protected so many paedophiles and abusers is still allowed to be involved in education and youth work.

So why are so many Catholic priests guilty of abuse then?

Aye and how many other religions are paying out BILLIONS to abuse victims?

I can’t openly criticize Catholicism due to Race hate legislation.

imho becomming a priest nun monk whatever may have a attracted a few people who were already paedophiles but many more who simply couldnt deal with life in the real world so instead chose the church
basically religous orders have a tendency to attract freaks

just my opinion

So why are so many Catholic priests guilty of abuse then?

Whilst not wanting to be an aplogist for any abusers, or the catholic church for that matter, I’d challenge the validity of this statement.

Is the prevalence of abusers higher in religious orders than the general population or do we just hear about it more because it is deemed newsworthy?

What is the prevalence in other religions?

What proportion of abuse is committed by those in religious orders? I’d suspect that it is relatively small as the vast majority of abuse is committed by family members.

I don’t post these questions with a view to getting answers, just a challenge to the opinion that religious orders are full of abusers.

“I can’t openly criticize Catholicism due to Race hate legislation”

Hora, you are the STW village idiot.

The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops commissioned a comprehensive study that found that four percent of all priests who had served in the U.S. from 1950 to 2002 faced some sort of sexual accusation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church_sex_abuse_scandal

OK so it’s wikipedia but the source seems correct. In the US btw.

Now four percent seems a pretty high figure to me – are four percent of all people generally accused of sexual abuse?

are four percent of all people generally accused of sexual abuse?

the thing is, they are in a position of trust and supposed to set a good example

“Now four percent seems a pretty high figure to me – are four percent of all people generally accused of sexual abuse? “

Dunno – but forty to sixty percent of women have been sexually abused, so it hardly seems that high. (I don’t have a source for that statistic, obviously).

(I don’t have a source for that statistic, obviously).

Why not?

Reminds me of:

“Now that is scientific fact – there’s no real evidence for it – but it is scientific fact”.

Hora, you are the STW village idiot.

Better that than someone who follows hypocritical-child touchers.

I read once that as the Catholic church is centralised (is that the correct term?) under the one authority (the vatican), and thus has it’s very substantial assets in one place, it is much easier to sue and claim compensation for sexual assaults than for other churches which although of the same denomination, operate independantly of one another and as such have relatively little wealth in the pot. Which may be why we hear less reports of abuse from other Christian churches and other faiths.

This could all be nonce-sense though.

This article applied to the US though, and no, I can’t find it.

than for other churches which although of the same denomination

wrong word, in this context ‘denomination’ means ‘name of religion’, so other churches will be of a different denomination, even if still Christian

Sorry Simon. That’s correct.

Dr Dolittle and I was called the STW Village idiot.

Regardless of ‘sue-ability’ why dont we hear about countless Anglican, Protestant etc etc Priests/Vicars being convicted/etc in droves?

Regardless of ‘sue-ability’ why dont we hear about countless Anglican, Protestant etc etc Priests/Vicars being convicted/etc in droves?

Don’t know really, maybe they’re not noncing to the same degree?

Maybe they pace themselves more? Sort of *SFB-censored* for a marathon rather than gorging themselves a la Catholic?

By the sound of it hora the people in question seemed to be in for the long haul, not a one night binge.

I think the use of the word ‘fiddling’ is inappropriate in this context

But it’s ok, they’re banning gays and praying lots

Pope Benedict XVI has instructed Roman Catholics to pray “in perpetuity” to cleanse the Church of paedophile clergy. All dioceses, parishes, monasteries, convents and seminaries will be expected to organise continuous daily prayers to express penitence and to purify the clergy.

Vatican officials said that every parish or institution should designate a person or group each day to conduct continuous prayers for the Church to rid itself of the scandal of sexual abuse by clergy. Alternatively, churches in the same diocese could share the duty. Prayer would take place in one parish for 24 hours, then move to another.

Vatican watchers said that there was no known precedent for global prayer on a specific issue of this kind. There are about one billion Roman Catholics worldwide.

The instruction was sent to bishops by Cardinal Cláudio Hummes of Brazil, head of the Vatican Congregation for the Clergy. He told L’Osservatore Romano, the Vatican newspaper, that he was acting in the Pope’s name. The Pope wanted Catholics to pray for the “mercy of God for the victims of the grave situations caused by the moral and sexual conduct of a very small part of the clergy”, he said.

Officials said that the prayers were in addition to support for legal action against paedophile priests by their victims and a code adopted two years ago by the Vatican to try to ensure that men “with deep-seated homosexual tendencies” do not enter seminaries to train for the priesthood.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3142511.ece

Perhaps the celibate lifestyle isn’t all its cracked up to be…..

and a code adopted two years ago by the Vatican to try to ensure that men “with deep-seated homosexual tendencies” do not enter seminaries to train for the priesthood

which is irrelevant to child abuse

so if I read that right their main way of tackling the problem is through non-stop prayer ? This goes to why I suggested the church was illequipped for self investigation….

The Pope wanted Catholics to pray for the “mercy of God for the victims of the grave situations caused by the moral and sexual conduct of a very small part of the clergy”, he said.

SO ONE IN 25 IS A VERY SMALL PART OF THE CLERGY….. OH RIGHT SILLY OLD ME AND THERE WAS ME THINKING IT WAS SOMETHING SERIOUS!!!

“with deep-seated homosexual tendencies” …………….which is irrelevant to child abuse

Oh right, so the buggery of boys isn’t an issue then? Mind you I quite agree that homosexuality doesn’t make you beat kids, or starve them so they could quite reasonably throw the noose a tad further. In fact I reckon the very fact that you want to be a priest/nun/monk should automatically disqualify you from being one.

Oh right, so the buggery of boys isn’t an issue then?

no, but I think it’s incorrect to suggest gays are any more likely to abuse boys than heterosexuals are to abuse girls

I stand open for correction, but I think you will find that the majority of the sexual abuse is male on male……. besides if they banned em all they’d run out of Church!

but I think you will find that the majority of the sexual abuse is male on male.

this raises 2 questions:
1) is it gay/bi/hetero on boy ? (ie distribution of sexuality of abusers)
2) is it because boys are less likely to report abuse ?

I think you will find the new testament preaches plenty of violence also

the trouble is it’s so boring I have to go on my memories from school 45 years ago 🙁