I’ll admit, I’m playing Devil’s Avocado, here.

Sheesh, that’s a real turn of the book for you RudeBoy…questioning Science is not the new heresy which you proclaim. Nothing questions “Science” more than science itself. Yous see, dear chap, therein lies the secret.

There’s no such thing as the “missing link” either. Remember that along with Darwin’s theories, we also now have evolutionary DNA examination, all the time, lending more and more weight to an already accepted theory.

But hey, if it helps, you go ahead and question – cleverer people will actually be doing the real questioning for you though and coming up wit the answers in scientific journals and books which you’ll never read.

epicyclo – Member
So it’s a bit like belief in global warming then…

Nice attempt at a troll there but FAIL! Global warming is[/b] happening, what’s under question is the extent of man’s contribution, but that’s another thread.

when questioned over her beliefs
Last night when questioned on if she really believed dinosaurs
what annoys me is i can’t ask what she believes in without being accused

Why do you feel the need to constantly question her?
You don’t sound like much of a friend to me.
How do her beliefs affect your friendship?
She is obviously very sensitive about her “new” life. She must have some deep-seated reason for joining the church, so hey, why don’t you just mind your own chuffin’ business!
Oh, and before you start, I am an atheist, but don’t give my “whatever religion” friends a hard time about their beliefs! 8)

o ye of little faith

Why do you feel the need to constantly question her?
How do her beliefs affect your friendship?

It could be that he’s concerned that she’s being indoctrinated into some cultish worship. And there are religous group’s who discourage interation with non-group members, which would certainly affect the friendship.

Well, by his own admission, he is more “annoyed” than concerned.

Why do you feel the need to constantly question her?

It’s always her that brings it up, normally in the context ‘now i’m a christian….”

i question her beliefs because i’m amazed at the whole blind faith thing. As i said it’s not the belief in god it’s the ‘ i don’t know my opinion on matter X we haven’t discussed it at church yet’

You don’t sound like much of a friend to me.

hmmm to be honest I have been but at some point i’ve had enough of the shit and can’t support her anymore.

How do her beliefs affect your friendship?

being told i’m going to hell a lot is really beginning to grate.

Ok, fair enough tomthumb…but you didn’t make that clear in your OP.

Don’t think I’d be friends with someone who told me I’m going to hell.

Move on…she’s responsible for her own life…whatever her choices!

deadly darcy.
i dont believe in global warming at all.

the romano british had tempratures 3 degs higer than us.
the post medieval period was about 4 degs colder than now.
if you examine temprature core rates you will find it is getting warmer but at a slower rate than it did in the Iron age!! and i dont recall evern finding an iron age car…

why don’t you just mind your own chuffin’ business!

If I thought a good friend of mine suddenly couldn’t appreciate the beauty of the garden without believing there are fairies at the bottom of it, I’d question him or her too. Like weeds, it’s easier to displace these stupid ideas when they’re fresh. It will be easier to topple fundamentalism if we tackle moderate religions first. I’m all for telling them it’s a load of shite.

you will find it is getting warmer

Lets not hijack the thread here, but there you go, you said it yourself, it’s getting warmer, just like I said. Now, stick your tin hat on and start a different thread if you want to discuss the extent of human contribution or whether it has any bearing at all.

Urm..didnt you start that darcy?

i dont believe in global warming at all.

the post medieval period was about 4 degs colder than now.

You do realise that you’ve proven the existence of global warming, one sentence after you’ve chosen to deny it.

Mans input into the change is neither here nor there.

Grrr…don’t fall for it trailmonkey, don’t…I’m tempted, but it would just be too easy

I’m all for telling them it’s a load of shite too, but if a friend of mine had chosen some wacko church to attend, I’d maybe question a couple of times and then leave well alone!
My own Mother goes to church every single week, sings in the choir every week etc…but if I ask her if she believes in god she just looks at me strangely! Don’t think she has ever even thought about it…it’s just one of her weekly social events!
As I said, tomthumb’s friend must have some real “reason” for suddenly finding the “imaginery friend” and it is her choice, not his.

But there is global colding as well!!
There has been at least 10 ice ages followd by ‘global warming’ in this epoch alone!! i think an ice age is far more likily- the planet heats before it gets cold…
he he i like playing devils avacardo or whatever he said.

To pull the thread back some..Im a lapsed catholic BTW. But I like to think that god but all the elements together and us animals came out of the oven. It matters not what then evolved from what, as we are all a creation. and its science.
This girl sounds like she is crying out for some help and religion is an answer. But its one of many answers. I prefer beer.

When I speak of ‘proof’, I mean something that is 100% FACT, as opposed to ‘very probable’.

i always find it puzzling that religious types so often demand that science provide absolute proof of stuff, when religion so often denies proof, insisting instead on faith; the anathema of proof.

while no absolute proof has been provided, i am convinced by large amounts of consistent evidence that many scientific theories are accurate descriptions of the world around us. i reserve the right to throw any or all of these theories out when evidence arises that shows them to be bunkum.

it is this behaviour that constitutes science. IMO, natch.

Well said FoxyChick – and your OP was spot on imo. Going by what thomthumb had originally said I too, also got the impression that he was giving her an unessarily hard time, not what you would expect from a friend.

How ’bout this

“Whilst i appreciate that you have different beliefs to me, I feel that sometimes our ‘discussions’ about it get in the way of our friendship, and the constant arguing is upsetting me. How ’bout we call a truce, and agree to differ”

the romano british had tempratures 3 degs higer than us.

Did they have mercury thermometers, then? 😉

I do love these ‘discussions’. For the record, I am an agnostic, and see the benefits in both religious observance, and in trusting in scientific ‘facts’.

But, I’ll keep an open mind.

As for Human evolution; I’m not denying that Humans have ‘evolved’ in some sense, and developed new skills throughout history. Well, throughout the history we are aware of, anyway. The History that has been recorded for us (although it’s interesting to note that much of our historical information is in fact contained in documents such as the Torah,Bible, etc…)

But I’m skeptical at all Scientific claims, and I think we’ve established that science does not always provide absolute factual proof of certain things.

See, the thing is, most of us ‘believe’ in stuff that scientists tell us. They present us with their findings, and research. They can often show us ‘proof’ that only the most insane would deny.

But there’s a fair bit of murky science; stuff which is mostly supposition based on evidence of related things, rather than being the Truth.

I think Human ‘Evolution’ comes into this area.

Now, the irony of followers of Science, dismissing religion as something which lacks ‘proof’, are happy to accept, as the Truth, stuff which is equally unproven.

Like, Jupiter is a big planet X miles from Earth, and consists of X chemicals and what not.

No Human has ever been to Jupiter, to collect any samples. So how can they claim, as gospel, stuff for which they have no evidence?

Eh?

It’s just guesswork. Informed, educated, well-considered guesswork, no doubt. But still guesswork.

Right. Human Evolution.

Where is there factual evidence of the point at which monkeys gained all sorts of skills and abilities, which defined them as ‘Human’?

Why is there only one intelligent species on a planet with loads of diverse species?

As for missing link ‘proof’; what, so a few mash-up skeletons and some bits and bobs found nearby are ‘proof’?

As I’ve mentioned before, I’m not denying the possibility that we are evolved from apes (I’ve been to some parts of South London, where there is surely much evidence to support such theories). I’m just musing on the possibility that we are not.

Or, what if some Alien life-form came to Earth at some stage, and chose one Ape species, and decided to take over the host creatures/infect them/had some form of technology to give the creature ‘intelligence’?

I know, it’s the stuff of Science Fiction (Sic); preposterous, ‘unbelievable’.

But it might be true!

There’s a lot of unexplained stuff out there. But maybe it’s an idea, to try and consider arguments from all sides, before naively deciding that one course of answer-making is the ‘right’ one.

This is probbly a bit too heavy for some of youse.

Ah well.

This is probbly a bit too heavy for some of youse.

Cor too fukking right mate – my brain hurts now.

But then I do come from Sarf Landan 🙁

Rudeboy agian some great valid points.
You should come down the pub next time i meet up with the uni lot!
LOL.

Woohoo! Grizzlybollocks is back! Where’ve you bin?

Guido; I’d be happy to!

I do enjoy stuff like this, actually. S’very inertesting.

Well, for me, anyway. Seems like Croydon Man is struggling a bit, with such a philosophical discussion…

But, I’ll keep an open mind.

But I’m skeptical at all Scientific claims

That’s some classic Fred right there.

Where is there factual evidence of the point at which monkeys gained all sorts of skills and abilities, which defined them as ‘Human’?

In your case, I’ll agree, the evidence of actual development is yet to be established 😉

There isn’t going to be “a point” in our prehistory when Apes stopped being apes and changed into Humans. The evolutionary steps took millions of years. the fossil record demonstrates it.

The aliens thing might be true, but there’s no evidence for it, so…it becomes a bit tricker to prove, no?

LOL! Some right cheeky buggers on here!

Ok, so why jolly well have not chimpanzees ‘evolved’ anywhere like Humans?

Too busy scratting their arses?

Seems like Croydon Man is struggling a bit, with such a philosophical discussion.

Yeah well I’m having trouble with the keyboard.

Do you think it would help if I placed it on the floor where me hands are ?

Of course not having any proper thumbs doesn’t help 🙄

Rudeboy me too. but i feel bad for the thread hyjack.
Will have to think of another topic- how about men- better than women?

(Reads Gus’ post; jumps up and down, screeching with laughter. Surprisingly similar to the behaviour of certain apes…)

how about men- better than women?

No no no no no no no…

Women are better, anyway. FACT. Scientifically proven. By me.

how about men- better than women?

Wrong forum for that sort of gay bollox

Oi, Gus; there’s no need for that sort of hateful prejudicial language.

As for the thread hi-jack; well I apologise too, but it was such a fascinating subject.

Maybe if the OP gets his friend to read this thread, it might cheer her up?

I don’t mean to be insensitive. I do hope she finds her own peace. Does sound like she’s struggling with a few things right now.

Don’t abandon her. That’s the very worst thing to do.

Never abandon someone. It’s a cowardly act.

Ok, so why jolly well have not chimpanzees ‘evolved’ anywhere like Humans?

Remember, evolution doesn’t stop, it just takes a loooooooong time, they are evolving.

there’s no need for that sort of hateful prejudicial language.

Sorry – I blame it on my selfish gene

🙄

Ok, so why jolly well have not chimpanzees ‘evolved’ anywhere like Humans?

Because you’re working on the assumption that everytime a species evolves, the old species dies out, ie, chimps become humans then die. It doesn’t work like that. Some chimps could have evolved to suit a different habitat/ set of conditions whereas another colony 100 miles away, had no need to. One set evolves, the other stays the same.

So how can they[scientist] claim, as gospel, stuff for which they have no evidence?

Eh?

It’s just guesswork. Informed, educated, well-considered guesswork, no doubt. But still guesswork

The whole point of science and its methodology is to learn by observation-gaining DATA. Everything science says has evidence …it may be from a poorly constructed experiment lacking reliability or validity but it will still have EVIDENCE.

Why do you write so much about a subject matter -evolution- and a process – science- that you clearly do not understand?

Why do you write so much about a subject matter ……………….. that you clearly do not understand?

Because he’s not giving a lecture ?

My own Mother goes to church every single week, sings in the choir every week etc…but if I ask her if she believes in god she just looks at me strangely! Don’t think she has ever even thought about it…it’s just one of her weekly social events!

That would really annoy me! I think her vicar should have a chat….

i think the OP needs to consider one thing.

Are you trying to bang her, or not.

if not, forget about her.

“Who knows FOR DEFINITE what happened in the beginning?“

No-one does. Not the religionistas. Not Dawkins and his evangelical atheists. Science having all the answers? I don’t think so. That money pit experiment in Swizzerland was supposed to answer the big question wasn’t it. Fine old crock o’ shite that turned out to be.

For what it’s worth, I’ve genuinely enjoyed Rudeboy’s postings on this. Seems he in the only person to have put any real thought into his *OWN* opinions rather than the usual blind scorn poured on anyone professing any sort of faith.

When I speak of ‘proof’, I mean something that is 100% FACT, as opposed to ‘very probable’.

Give me an example of something that meets your standard of proof, so we know what we’re dealing with, Rudeboy. Personally I can’t think of a single thing which is 100% fact that couldn’t be shown not to be so by somebody determined enough.

I’m more than happy to admit that I believe in the scientific process. I feel RudeBoy is playing Devil’s Advocate and is showing definiate signs of being blinkered in his acceptance of ideas and theories. For example, a reliance upon a normally tangible physical object to e.g. measure a certain distance is not always needed. To test this idea one could nip down to B+Q and buy a tape measure AND a laser/ ultrasonic measurer and measure the distance between an appropriate pair of objects. Or, if still questioning the benefit of satellite based technology, use a mobile phone to order a GPSr from a friend/ supplier in another country. Just because the process is not overtly visible does not mean that it is not there. It can however be detected, measured and recorded in a repeatable way.

RudeBoy- you give more questions than you accept answers, not always a bad thing. But I have a single question for you. What is your definition of proof? If that is not known, argument to persuade/ dissuade you is possibly worthless.