They certainly have form, but it wasn’t last year (2010))

They actually have far more form than that Linky

Not really relevant to the current sabre-rattling but this is a great read for anyone interested about the Pueblo incident in the late 60’s. Not the best formatted website but make sure you read the anecdotes as you go through.
http://www.usspueblo.org/Pueblo_Incident/Incident_Main.html

so,the real question is – where is all this leading ?

the u.s usually has some agenda when it acts like a colossal imperial bully, just as it’s doing right now with its intimidation of north korea via spy plane flights and b2 flights.

the moment north korea starts flying nuclear strike capable aircraft over mexico i’ll start believing that it’s the aggressive party.

in the meantime, i’ll be suspicious that the u.s may well have something up its sleeve beyond its indignation that somewhere in the world, someone has the temerity to have a government that it doesn’t like.

Should just wait until all the big wigs are doing another march past in that square of there and get rid of the lot in one go with the least collateral damage.

At least we are out of range don’t want my ridding to get disrupted this summer, sod law says we get the first decent summer in years but cannot go out due to nuclear fall out 😀

I agree with trailmonkey, at the end of the day they are North Korea’s missiles if they want to move them about a bit why shouldn’t they, even if they want to fly them about they should be allowed to. America should only have a problem if one of them lands on them, then they can have a moan.

I dont generally follow politics but I find it really interesting when we here about propoganda etc.

From my perspective it seems that the US are the agressor and do so in soo many countries. OK NK may have weapons odf mass destruction and their leader may be unhinged but the US are starting to poke it with a stick as they have done many times befre. When it turns to bite they obliterate it.

If the US just kept its self t itself the wrld wuld be a safer place.

Additionally we talk of KJU and NK and their people being brutalised, brainwashed and starved, are not those very same things happening in the US with many many US citizens unable to look after themselves correctly and indeed in this country where we see pensiooners die in the winter when they chooose food over heat, ok isolated incidents of brutality by the people that should protect us and dangerous relationships between government and media.

Pfffft…North Korea only has Nerf missiles…

I keep reading that N Korea are short of food, maybe USA will do them a favour and half their population…We can then rebuild the country and get a leader we like….win win.

South Korea cares about its people, the North doesn’t.

So if anything was to happen it’d be the North firmly starting it.

The South would definitely win but the biggest loser would be the South.
even for you hora this is a mish mash of contradictions and incositencies- the winner is the biggest loser 😯

In the Korean war the North was backed (and included alot of) Chinese soldiers.

they entered only after the NK attack had failed and when the UN had pushed them back past the 38 th parallel and looked like they would completely conquer the country- protected/defended my be a better word than backed as Chinese troops never entered South Korea but US trooops certainly went into North korea

This time round there wont be any. True- China doesn’t want a heap of shit on its own borders. It also NEEDS the west for business/prosperity this time round too.

you think they want US troops there instead of NK ones? Its global capitalism China needs the west as much as we need them.

Or could they be actors dressed up?

My lord you have bestest yourself here – were you drunk when posting?

You do know NK has the highest % of armed forces for the population of any country. If you were going to get actors would you get old decrepit ones – Hora really what are you doing /saying here as this cannot really be classed as thinking

The US and South Korea are doing joint military operations to show how ready for war[ we are the west so of course it is prepared to defend ourselves as the US hasa along tradition of not invading countries ] they are with NK – they are doing the same going look we have weapons we have nukes and I will use them etc
Boths sides upping the pressure tbh and both sides are pretty much doing the same – show boating their military might though NK has to act batshit crazy mental as a good deterrent. Who picks a fight with the crazy guy with the nukes. He plays this role well

no war here as NK [ the political elite] will be over if they do and they know this

If as mentioned above the U.S are warmongering what would they stand to gain by war?
Just reading Andy Kershaw’s book and he says that every military vehicle he saw had its bonnet up and was receiving attention. They may have the bomb and well drilled soldiers but do they have the functioning hardware for a ground war?

They may have the bomb and well drilled soldiers but do they have the functioning hardware for a ground war?

Tell the mechanics not to bother…shock and awe will take care of any functioning hardware…

trailmonkey – Member

so,the real question is – where is all this leading ?

Well sabre rattling tends to lead to feelings of patriotism within the masses, which in turn leads to a sense of moral and civic duty to support the government and its leaders. Rather useful when support would otherwise be flagging.

Obama Approval Rating: President’s Numbers Drop 7 Points

It does also of course, help to justify spending obscene amounts of money, during allegedly hard economic times, on military hardware.

North Korea threat means we need Trident nuclear deterrent, says PM

All in all I would say that ratcheting up tension over the Korean Peninsula has been fairly constructive.

In the mid 80s who would have thought that Nicolae Ceau?escu would meet a grissley end, he seemed to have such a grip of Romania, or that the Stasi would not always have the run of East Berlin.
I only know what I have read or seen on TV about North Korea so I just dont know what their game is, I do know something for sure though, nothing lasts forever and thanks to karma most of historys bogey men usually meet the end earned during their lifetime.

As I understand it a war would be good for the economy but then getting the soldiers ut after the fact and reegime change heart and minds etc.

Britain quite liked Nicolae Ceau?escu. In fact we liked him so much that we awarded him an honorary knighthood. Obviously after he was overthrown and executed we decided that we didn’t really like him after all, and he was stripped of the award.

North Korea threat means we need Trident nuclear deterrent, says PM

indeed, trident is not only vital to spare us from international communism but it’s also really inexpensive compared to what we spend on those feckless dole scroungers.

“Our current nuclear weapons capability costs on average around 5%-6% of the current defence budget. That is less than 1.5% of our annual benefits bill.”

David Cameron.

i’d be tempted to say that you couldn’t make this stuff up, but someone, somewhere obviously is.

What are the distances between London and Pyongyang and the US and Pyongyang?

Cameron claims that the DPRK’s missile pose an existential threat, yet condemns Pyongyang for wanting to be able to ‘deter’ the western powers…

Errr…

How long before we hear that those suddenly enhanced short/medium range DPRK missiles could be launched against us and land within 45 minutes?

I read it as the whole thing is just a smokescreen to get some new UK military policy through..

So none of it’s happening? Or it is but Cameron and Kim JU are really in cahoots?

My reading is that KJU is doing a bit of sabre rattling to shore up his position at home, and Cameron and others are recognising the opportunity to say “See? This sort of thing is exactly why we need Trident.”

So I can’t really see it kicking off, if for no other reason than NK doesn’t seem to stand to get anything out of it except a total hammering. OTOH they have got previous, and you never know to what extent KJU might be believing his own press.

My reading is that KJU is doing a bit of sabre rattling to shore up his position at home

You think his position is a bit iffy then ?

Still, I do like a ruthless dictator who worries about his approval ratings.

And it was damn decent of the yanks to help him out with his bit of sabre rattling by organizing highly provocative military exercises right on his doorstep which are designed to send a clear and unambiguous threat.

I believe the Americans have backed off from their various war games in order to cool off the escalation.

you think they want US troops there instead of NK ones? Its global capitalism China needs the west as much as we need them.

I understand that there are around 40,000 US troops in the DMZ between the two countries, although that may be old info.

I don’t suppose he cares to much what Joe Public thinks but he might need to think about what other people in the elite think of him. Or maybe he’s just trying to come out of the shadow of his dad.
As for the exercises, the US and SK have been doing them for years haven’t they? They do them with other partner countries all the time, and where else are exercise with SK going to take place other than right on KJU’s doorstep?

highly provocative military exercises right on his doorstep which are designed to send a clear and unambiguous threat

I think there’s a difference between a threat and a show of strength.

Who knows though? Like Cameron I don’t doubt that the US would pass up an opportunity to give credence to their military-heavy foreign policy approach by taking the ball and running with it if NK give them the excuse. Again though that’s not necessarily the same as provoking- and I don’t think the US provoked NK into sinking that SK ship and shelling the island a few years ago.

Well sabre rattling tends to lead to feelings of patriotism within the masses,

Not sure it’s needed really. We work there (providing food on a tiny scale) and one of our folks got into trouble for taking a photograph of a bus that looked like it might paint the country in a poor light. This was just ordinary folks, not police
( and it was a London bus 🙂 )

I think there’s a difference between a threat and a show of strength.

So you disagree with the US President when he claims that North Korea’s latest nuclear test was “highly provocative” and threatens international peace ?

I think there’s a difference between a threat and a show of strength.

😆

yup, a show of strength is when you’re flying the plane and the threat is what you feel when you’re underneath it.

Not sure it’s needed really. We work there (providing food on a tiny scale) and one of our folks got into trouble for taking a photograph of a bus that looked like it might paint the country in a poor light.

goddam these crazy commie koreans. why on earth would they seem so paranoid and introspective. we show them nothing but love and understanding

I dont generally follow politics but I find it really interesting when we here about propoganda etc.

From my perspective it seems that the US are the agressor and do so in soo many countries. OK NK may have weapons odf mass destruction and their leader may be unhinged but the US are starting to poke it with a stick as they have done many times befre. When it turns to bite they obliterate it.

If the US just kept its self t itself the wrld wuld be a safer place.

Additionally we talk of KJU and NK and their people being brutalised, brainwashed and starved, are not those very same things happening in the US with many many US citizens unable to look after themselves correctly and indeed in this country where we see pensiooners die in the winter when they chooose food over heat, ok isolated incidents of brutality by the people that should protect us and dangerous relationships between government and media.

It does make one wonder what motives the US have in this. There was a comment on the radio the other day, basically to the effect that a North Korean takeover would put them closer to the Chinese with their South Korean allies, which could have long term benefits. Maybe there’s some truth in that.

But I think your comments are way off the mark. The DPRK make a point of poking. It has always been a large part of their politics. And they often specifically poke at the US. Bearing in mind the US help feed them (when they’re not being so naughty). This is a country where your entire family can be sent to a labour camp if you don’t sufficiently polish your portraits of your leaders, past and present, which you must do by law. It really isn’t comparable to a small percentage of the population not being able to afford their gas bill, probably partly because they’ve been conned into a bad deal by a over-enthusiastic salesman working for a private company.

It might also be because DPRK don’t have a nuke they can out in a missile yet but it will come so better to poke now than later 🙁

I hope not though

I think it is pretty certain that DPRK don’t have a reliable ICBM chassis which could deliver a nuclear strike over a long distance, with any accuracy.
It is also doubtfull that they have the materials or the technology to develop their own mature nuclear warhead design.

However, it is also believed they are sharing technology with the likes of Iran, and in reality, how secure is Russian/Chinese/Pakistani nuclear technology?

The threat has to be taken seriously, however I think it is more likely that China will step in and slap them down, rather than sit back and watch it turn into a full-on ground war in their parish.

…and as for Cameron using this an oportunity to push the Trident replacement… he is sort of right, however the Trident replacement (or Successor program as it is known in the industry) will go ahead regardless. The government have already committed 3 billion quid to it for R&D, and there are estimated to be around 2500 people working on it around the UK.
It is a long way off though.. first Boat is expected to go live around 2026…

^^ 😆

first Boat is expected to go live around 2026…

….and will inevitably be late, as is the way with these things 😀

Junkyard – Member

South Korea cares about its people, the North doesn’t.

So if anything was to happen it’d be the North firmly starting it.

The South would definitely win but the biggest loser would be the South.

even for you hora this is a mish mash of contradictions and incositencies- the winner is the biggest loser

I think he means SK/US would win the war but at a very high price.
.

The threat has to be taken seriously, however I think it is more likely that China will step in and slap them down, rather than sit back and watch it turn into a full-on ground war in their parish.

No senior Chinese diplomat has been to Pyongyang (sp?) since November.
.
Just as a hypothetical, if NK did launch a short-range nuclear missile at Seoul, how would the US react?
They can’t do nothing, a ground invasion would surely follow, probably within days.
If they send a large conventional force to invade the north that could be met with a similar response (a similar weapon could do a lot of damage to a naval fleet) The loss of so many troops wouldn’t play well at home.
They can’t really retaliate with a nuclear attack, the NK civilian casualties wouldn’t go down well with the US public, and the wider world public.
Can they topple (assisinate?) the leadership. How? Should they do this before NK attack, is that legal?

*pinch of salt but…….

The US very quietly deployed 7 Rockwell B1-B nuclear capable bombers to Guam. All together. Rare that many deploy and even odder they all go together.

More ominous is the deployment of the E-6 Mercury, or ‘doomsday’ plane. Designed to be an airborne mobile command and control station for the nuclear force in the event of ground bases being rendered unusable or in the event of nuclear war…..

had to google the E-6, never heard of it before! 😳
.
I love the B1 though, one of my favourite aircraft, and I’m usually more of a fan of Soviet stuff than American.

if any state uses Nuclear weapons there would be a unanimous UN move to make sure they were knacked so hard they couldn’t do it again. It wouldn’t be the US, it would be everyone. NK would be wiped off the map, and started again from scratch.

Reckon they will fire off a missile or two to ramp up the pressure though in what direction who knows?
It’s like NK are playing a game of poker and, without a decent hand or method, are just trying to bluff their way to the end (no poker player so don’t know the exact terms).

ust as a hypothetical, if NK did launch a short-range nuclear missile at Seoul, how would the US react?
They can’t do nothing, a ground invasion would surely follow, probably within days.
If they send a large conventional force to invade the north that could be met with a similar response (a similar weapon could do a lot of damage to a naval fleet) The loss of so many troops wouldn’t play well at home.
They can’t really retaliate with a nuclear attack, the NK civilian casualties wouldn’t go down well with the US public, and the wider world public.
Can they topple (assisinate?) the leadership. How? Should they do this before NK attack, is that legal?

Any ballistic missile attack would be intercepted by the Americans, the Yanks and South Korea would respond with surgical strikes against Korean military targets. Their arty would be wiped out as would communications, command bunkers, logistical lines and power stations.

Which would probably result in a full on shooting match for a few months with massive casualties, however the Americans wouldn’t need to use nukes to wipe NK off the map. Satellite based intelligence, U2 spy planes and precision munitions launched from submarines, destroyers, B-2’s, B-1’s, F-18’s, F-22’s etc ad nauseum can do that job.

NK probably won’t attack… the risk is misinterpreting a missile test or other North Korean actions and then starting a full blown war by accident because everyone’s on edge.

In the first instance, I too think that China will intervene. It does not look good for them to allow the US to be a more decisive player in their back garden.

However, if it did become confrontational, is this not a war that would suit the US? They have promised ‘shock and awe’ in the past, but failed to deliver this decisively imo. I just feel that they have a vast arsenal of technology at their disposal and haven’t used it yet as all recent ‘enemies’ have been low tech.

They have promised ‘shock and awe’ in the past, but failed to deliver this decisively imo.

you missed Iraq the war 1 & 2? I think they would beg to differ.

I think the start of the Iraq war could better be described as ‘midly surprising and quite impressive’ rather than ‘shock and awe’, it was hardly the blitzkreig, after the rhetoric I was expecting better. The bulk of the Iraqi army was mainly conscripts though with little will to fight or any particular fondness for the leadership they were supposed to defend. Is the NK army likely to be more determined?

Well they were definitely shocked and dislocated and as far as lightening goes it was only a hundred hours of ground war. The strikes on communications, logistics, command and control was pretty decisive and would be again. At the tactical level the attrition was spectacular.