If a company offers an enhanced maternity leave package to women, it is still entirely legal for that company not to offer that same benefit to men taking shared parental leave. It is about as clear cut an example of direct discrimination as you can get, and yet it’s still unchallenged.

Why? Why aren’t we (men) more angry about this? It’s the ONLY remaining example of legal discrimination we have and yet it is still not being challenged.

Have you ever spent any time with a new born?

THAT is why we’re not climbing bridges dressed as Superman about extended Paternity Leave.

But seriously, no idea.

Parental leave is not the same as maternity leave?

What do men NEED (not want!) on paternity leave that women get on maternity leave?

At its most basic level women give birth men don’t.

I guess when men start giving birth, balance may be achieved?

If you could make milk come out of your tits you’d have a point.

At its most basic level women give birth men don’t.

Well that accounts for nothing more than a few hours. What about the next 12 months?

OK, so by law the mother is required to take the first two weeks off, but beyond that, the whole point of shared parental leave is to make child care opportunities between men and women equal.

If you can equalise that aspect of society, you stand a much better chance of getting rid of the last 9% of pay inequality and the 24% gender pay gap.

I think that the prevoius version of paternity leave (pre 2014 I think) was tested in court.
I was ruled that it was ok to discriminate against the father in this case as he would be treated the same as the non child bearing woman in a lesbian couple and therefore not discriminated against in terms of sex. Since the legislation changed I don’t believe it has been tested in court but imagine a similiar outcome

Well that accounts for nothing more than a few hours. What about the next 12 months?

What a load of shite.

*waves from Sweden*

Men are much better at pretending to be asleep when the new baby is crying than women. Or so I’ve heard.

*coughs*

Maybe you need this guy on your case

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39683982

It’s the ONLY remaining example of legal discrimination we have

Really? You can’t think of a single other instance of men and women being treated differently in the workplace and it being legal

legal discrimination

and another wave from Norway – think I got 14 weeks off on 80% salary

Why? Why aren’t we (men) more angry about this? It’s the ONLY remaining example of legal discrimination we have and yet it is still not being challenged.

Perhaps your depth of anger is limited to posting it on a bike forum?
Have you spoken to your MP or the prospective candidates? Shared leave does sound like a good idea and pushing more to the woman continues the idea that they will care and man will work. It would need to be pushed though and would take some political will.

Shared leave does sound like a good idea and pushing more to the woman continues the idea that they will care and man will work.

Wholly agree. It’s very difficult for a man to be the main carer as the perception is that it’ll be the woman taking more time off at the birth, and more time off to deal with inevitable sickness of said sprog at some point. If it were simply a case that you’d expect anyone of either sex to be likely to be taking time off for child-related issues from their mid 20s to mid 40s a significant chunk of discrimination against women on the basis of child-related issues would evaporate. In a world where it’s just as likely that the man may take a year off as the woman following the birth of a child, there’s very little point in discriminating against the woman on the basis of likelihood of extended absence.

In a way, it also discriminates against women. It’s bloody exhausting looking after a new baby. Some days it’s a struggle to even make a cup of tea or get dressed. Fifteen minutes to have a shower is a luxury! If I’d had the father of my kids at home to help it would have been so much easier 😀

Shared leave does sound like a good idea

It does yes. Bit more than an idea too:

https://www.gov.uk/shared-parental-leave-and-pay

It’s the ONLY remaining example of legal discrimination we have

Women also tend to get nicer toilets

if the country wants paid paternity leave we should vote for it. I am very keen on tax transparency and the cost of it should be clearly laid out on people’s annual tax statements. There is not only the cost to the state of course but the cost to the business of hiring extra staff to cover those out of the office.

OP its another example of equal rights being equal in an Animal Farm sort of way. We live in the most female friendly country for divorce in the world, I don’t see too many women campaigning for equality there.

OP its another example of equal rights being equal in an Animal Farm sort of way. We live in the most female friendly country for divorce in the world, I don’t see too many women campaigning for equality there.

Is it equal though? That is the test. Women are less equal in terms of pay, conditions, career, pensions, opportunity and many other things. Also much more likely to suffer domestic violence. I don’t see many men offering to swap all that.
Sharing parental leave should shift the burden/focus from a woman’s earning and perceived cost to a more equal system that many progressive countries are doing.
In order to vote for it a party needs to propose it, get it in the queens speech and get it in front of the commons.

Another wave from Sweden, i had nearly two years off in total. I’d have to have a look but i *think* i had more time off with the kids in total than my other half.

vickypea – Member
In a way, it also discriminates against women. It’s bloody exhausting looking after a new baby. Some days it’s a struggle to even make a cup of tea or get dressed. Fifteen minutes to have a shower is a luxury! If I’d had the father of my kids at home to help it would have been so much easier

It shouldn’t be considered a woman’s job to do this. Personally, i do more childcare than my wife, but being self employed I’ve had to go part time as i get zilch handouts!

For once I agree with GT.

It’s resistance from employers that has prevented it happening, I’d imagine.

I wouldn’t look to the Tories to do anything about it, obvs.

Been through this at my place too – they offer an enhanced maternity package to a mother, but Shared Parental Leave is statutory benefit only.
Apparently it’s not discriminatory as a maternity leave and shared parental leave are not directly comparable – a woman would receive the only the statutory benefit if on shared parental leave, same as a man (and presumably they’d offer a man the full maternity benefits if he were carrying the baby)

So, technically it’s fair, but in practice obviously still biased against men.
In coming up with the policy, the internal equality committee (we’re a very large employer) presented a paper to HR stating their position that shared parental leave should offer the same benefits as maternity leave. HR ignored it and countered on cost grounds with some very obviously flawed arguments – for example, they worked out a very inflated potential cost to the business based on an “average employee”, neglecting that most parents would be at the younger end, and hence more junior/paid less and also forgetting to offset the reduced amount of maternity pay to mothers where fathers are taking leave instead.

I took 3 months with our little one last year – some of the best 3 months of my life and I’d recommend to anyone, regardless of the level of bias against men taking parental leave. It wasn’t very well received at local level and I did encounter some attitudes from managers and colleagues that certainly wouldn’t have been aired towards a woman taking maternity leave, as they should know better.

In a way, it also discriminates against women.

This.

The career chances of women of child bearing age will never be the same as those of men of the same age while less scrupulous employers see the bottom line of increased costs and disruption of child rearing being an issue almost entirely related to women in the workforce.

Was reading an article as I think it’s 2 years since SPL was introduced (not long after our first), and the non-matching of enhanced maternity was cited as a factor. If mum is being paid well for the time, it makes no sense for dad to stay at home on £140/week while she goes back to work.

A mate did it for 6 months and enjoyed it, he works for a more generous employer who matched maternity benefits, and his wife earns more anyway. I’m considering doing a few months for baby #2 now that it’ll be an option, my wife’s a contractor so effectively paying her own maternity leave.

In a way, it also discriminates against women.

It discriminates against both by reinforcing gender roles and only rewarding people based on their performance against those gender roles.

Sweden, and I guess Norway, are the examples we should be following. If you want all women to earn the same as all men, you need a society where men feel valued and rewarded by society for being the primary carer in a family situation. This is very far from what happens.

Have you spoken to your MP or the prospective candidates?

I have as it happens. The Tories are not interested in fixing the problem.

Regarding the test – women on SPL being treated the same – that’s not even technically comparable. If you want to get really technical about it the argument concludes with you saying that because a man cannot carry and give birth, therefore he’s not entitled to the benefits that acrue to someone who can, at which point you are effectively saying that because you don’t have a womb, therefore you aren’t entitled to the benefit. Well that’s just blatant discrimination.

Think about it; I know the argument sounds crazy but there are countless cases brought by women on the grounds of them being disadvantaged ‘because they are not a man’. Well this is no different.

Did I miss it or has someone pointed out this is precarious for a company to offer good shared parental leave as it will encourage Dad’s to take bigger chunks of parental leave if that pays better than the mother’s (stingy) company statutory policy.
I don’t really believe this is how company decisions are being made but it is a factor, right?
Luckily for us both me and mrs D get just stingy statutory and earn about the same so its purely a parenting choice on who has the leave. We’ll probably overlap at least a month and go abroad. Better start saving.

Nothing reinforces gender roles like childbirth.

Don’t dad’s get a couple of weeks off these days? Got nothing when my kid was born.

The fact that anyone gets it is just unfair discrimination towards breeders. 😉

Grum has a point, being a parent is a choice, not mandatory. Speaking as a father of two I suggest those moaning be thankful we aren’t in America.

While we’re on it, can we start a petition to enforce an equal 50% gender split in the manual labouring, refuse collection & sewerage sectors? 😉

What do men NEED (not want!) on paternity leave that women get on maternity leave?

A year off work pretty much at full pay for starters. What do Women NEED that men dont? There are plenty of devices that can store breast milk so the baby can be fed by the father.

Grum has a point, being a parent is a choice, not mandatory.

This is true but since our kids will be paying for the pension and benefits of the current non-breeders, they should either give us time of to make it easier to bring them into the world, or else give us a rebate.

What do Women NEED that men dont?

Probably a few weeks off to recover from child birth, but they get that (it’s mandatory for the mum to take the first two weeks off).

What do Women NEED that men dont?

Well.. my missus was hospitalised for two weeks before our first born and needed another week in hospital afterwards. After that her wound (emergency C-section) had to be looked after fairly carefully and she couldn’t drive for at least a month or two. She tore the stitches more than once and it also got infected.

“Normal” births can also have lots of health complications.

There are plenty of devices that can store breast milk so the baby can be fed by the father.

There are – but forcing the mother to be milked like a cow so she can go back to work is a bit draconian. (Offering her that choice is different).

Other than that I’m not sure what your point is? Shared parental leave is a thing that already exists, so if a couple decide to share the leave then they can and there is legislation in place to support them.

Thanks so much for your noble service geetee.

so if a couple decide to share the leave then they can and there is legislation in place to support them.

I agree with everything you’ve just posted Graham. The point I was raising is that while SPL does now exist and give us options, it is still permissable for a comapny to offer women an enhanced level of benefit when taking SLP and not offer that to men.

Actually the problem is more nuanced that that because women don’t take SPL, they take Maternity Leave. Men cannot take ‘maternity leave’ and they can only take two weeks ‘paternity leave’. As yet, there is still not legally enshirned right to ‘paternity leave’ beyond two weeks. In order to take SPL, a man has to have it donated to him by his partner.

Which is not wholly unlike the time when women were seen to have had their vote cast for them in proxy by their husband.

Thanks so much for your noble service geetee.

Any time Grum